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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Plains of Despair
Thread: Plains of Despair This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 12:55 AM

Plains of Despair

I had an interesting debate tonight.

A guy insisted that I cannot Barbarian rush him in two weeks (or 15-17 days) on the Plains of Despair map, advanced settings.

The Pyro has 6-7 Black Dragons.

Do you think it can be done?

And what if the Halberd of Swiftwatch is the random minor artifact near my town (guarded by 10 Cyclopes and 25 Harpies)?

Also, could the maker of the map contact me, if possible?

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted December 15, 2002 01:51 AM

You might make it to your opponent but... your army will be severely weakened by beating the pyro, and he will crush you

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 01:55 AM
Edited By: csarmi on 14 Dec 2002

Severely weakened?

All I lose is some Immortality potions and I still have my army left. Barbarian rush for me means battling with only the heroes. Preferably with two heroes. Creatures stay behind and join only when I crush through the dragons.

I really don't understand you. How could I possibly lose any troops killing that Pyro (and the Drakes)??

OOPS, I forgot. I lose 8 centaurs. If it is called "severely weakened", then I shut up.

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Camelnor
Camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted December 15, 2002 02:07 AM

Quote:
Severely weakened?

All I lose is some Immortality potions and I still have my army left. Barbarian rush for me means battling with only the heroes. Preferably with two heroes. Creatures stay behind and join only when I crush through the dragons.

I really don't understand you. How could I possibly lose any troops killing that Pyro (and the Drakes)??

OOPS, I forgot. I lose 8 centaurs. If it is called "severely weakened", then I shut up.


Hmm... I still dont buy it.  By end of week 2 your heroes will have GM combat with maybe expert melee and of course, no magic resistance since you would definitely take another step in melee or combat over mag. resistance.  Granted, with M or GM combat, your heroes will die slowly from drags, but still, its not like you have GM melee.. so they wont be doing that much damage either.  Plus the pyro... I dont see your barb's winning.  Unless you have like a bunch of other artys you arent mentioning besides the halberd.

I think more practical way to do this would to kill as many as you can then retreat then come back and crush them.  I dont think you could kill them all in one battle by 2 weeks even if you have halberd for one of the heroes.

While you may be able to make the theory sound plausible, I would hafto see it done before I believe it.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 03:13 AM
Edited By: csarmi on 14 Dec 2002

Well, I've already done it several times. I don't really need that halberd, though it comes in handy.

The worst result is

Black Dragons defeated in 1 battle (using 6 potions or so) at Day 13.

I've clicked an end turn doing nothing once.

I've lost 11 Nomads, 11 Centaurs and 37 Berserkers in the whole game.

(Used up 8 Centaurs for the Drake battle, lost 3 occasionally, lost some Zerks when using as meat shield, and lost 11 nomads in an accident - I was attacked by 12 Vampires and 37 Mummies)

Town built up till Cyclops Cave, I have Arsenal and Caravan, of course. Wrestling Pit built.

I have two Level 10 Barbarians,
Guy 1: GM Combat, GM Melee, Advanced Magic Resistance.
Guy 2: GM Combat, Master Melee, Expert Magic Resistance.

This was only a test.
So I made it fast and I made sure that I am not using up anything that is not 100% that be the same way in all games.

I am pretty sure that it can be done at day 10, but that does include a little luck (so it is only 90% sure).

BTW, currently I have a multiplayer game running with the guy, it is Day 5 (end turn).

I have two Level 6 Barbarians with Master Combat, Expert Melee and Basic Magic Resistance each.

I did not check the tree, I did not check the Veteran's guild.

I did not do anything special. Hero 1 went to collect all the Treasure Chests (always XP) and checking out learning stones in the southern path (playing south, blue), while Hero 2 went north and took the mines, treasure chests and the Hut of The Magi with the Zerks and Centaurs. I've lost a bunch of Zerks when attacking Leprechauns.

The heroes are now in the desert, they've just met.

I already made several mistakes (for example I forgot to take the external tavern and kill the Mantis to send a Hero to the river.

Anyways, I don't need any Magic Resistance or Combat for the Drakes.

Those 7 BD's kill 1 hero/turn no matter what, so it would be better to have Expert Combat and Grandmaster Melee.

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Jinxer
Jinxer


Legendary Hero
*****
posted December 15, 2002 07:44 AM

This whole discussion just depresses me.  IN the beginning I thought the use of heroes in battle was going to be a great and exciting thing!!  But it is turning out to be a nightmare.

There is NO need for army at all anymore.  The main strategy is built heroes and immortality potions and go kill everything.  It is quite sad and very limiting on the game already.

I personally think that the Heroes need to have about 3 Times more defense BUT reduce there offence 4 times.  Basically the point I am making is the HERO should be a support factor to your army.  Hard to kill him....but yet he himself cannot bring your army down he can only support and help your actual army.  This is how I invisioned the HERO when H4 was first released.

Not that anyone cares really, but as the current evolution of H4 is progressing so far I will be bored and done with in in matter of weeks.  H4 is only about the Barb rush. Forget about any and all other facits of the game, they need not apply.

Jinxer
____________

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Laelth
Laelth


Famous Hero
Laelth rhymes with stealth.
posted December 15, 2002 08:34 AM

Jinxer,

I hear you.  I've gotten spanked by the hero army a couple of times now, and it doesn't feel good.  I liked the army-building aspect of H3, and in H4, it seems, it's much more important to develop combat heroes.

However, I wanted to call your attention to the "External Taverns" thread in which several reputable players claim to have strategies for beating the barb.  Valkyrica and General even claim that it's "easy" to beat the barb.  They don't say how.  Perhaps you could coax their strategy out of them.  I'd be curious to know how they do it.

Here's the link:http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=7244&pagenumber=2

Regards,

-Laelth
____________
Alan P. Taylor, Attorney at Law, LLC

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 09:16 AM
Edited By: csarmi on 15 Dec 2002

That's another issue.

I agree, that Barbarian can be beaten. But what about two Barbarians with an army?

But still, you spend 90% of your time developing your heroes and taking out the neutrals with them.

They move alone or with not much creature support most of the time. (ok, they always have a nomad to be faster)

The fact that heroes are this good is amazing and annoying at the same time.

Jinx, I really like your support ideas.

However, I don't think what you said will solve the problem. If you divide attack by 4 and multiply defense by 3, your hero becomes a little weaker. But only a little.
Not sure anyways.

In fact, it becomes even harder to kill him and that is what matters.

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WhenPimpsAtt...
WhenPimpsAttack

Tavern Dweller
Drinker of Immortality potions
posted December 15, 2002 11:52 AM

2 level 10 order mages with dispell and create illusions will beat 2 level 10 barbs anyday. Provided the player knows what hes doing...

Thats why might is not so good on some maps, you need at least 1 spellcaster.
____________

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted December 15, 2002 01:07 PM

I guess I can admit one thing.. I kinda suck at homm4 right now  but.. on plains of despair.. if I am having an outstanding day.. and things all work in my favor, I can kill those dragons on prolly late week2.. or an attack week 2 finish em off in a second attack.

On Advanced Difficulty I did lose my hero's to those dragons. Which caused me some major trouble lol. in fact it gave him all my artifacts!!! I ended up needing to await week 4 to attack again and collect my arts.. Luckily with a stationary hero you get the tombstone easy

I don't know when I could kill that illusionist though, on intermediate np.. but adv he becomes much much harder.

I do agree though, the barb rush is no fun to be attacked with.. I know about the cancellations and such, but I just never seem to be in the right position to deal with them when they come

-----------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

----------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 02:25 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 15 Dec 2002

Kill them on week 2? What alignment are you? What is your strat?

I know I can kill those Drakes at Day 11 anytime. But then I really have to watch every step I make.

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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted December 15, 2002 02:41 PM

Day 11 is not week 2?

Perhaps my grade 2 math has suffered over these years

------------------------
The Dead Walk!!!

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Youri
Youri

Tavern Dweller
posted December 15, 2002 03:26 PM

The makers of this map are Sacred_Warriors, and me partially. So if you have any questions you may ask me here and I will forward them to Sacred. He does not speak english
About barbarian rush...try to beat the guard on Heart of Winter map with barbs only or even with some barbarian army (difficulty doen not matter since the hero guard if flagged). I tried to make anti-barb-rush map and think it worked well. Pyromancer casts fireballs to kill "cover" units (she also has ring of negation and can cast fire bolts on resistant barbs), nighmares cast terror on barb, efreeti work well with their fire shield and minotaurs are not easy to beat hand-to-hand.
Will be glad to hear any comments.

____________

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 06:18 PM

Yes, Day 11 is week two.

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WhenPimpsAtt...
WhenPimpsAttack

Tavern Dweller
Drinker of Immortality potions
posted December 15, 2002 07:17 PM

what difficulty can you kill them on day 11? Try playing on advanced or higher.

also youri, you can just send stacks of 1 level 1 creature against the magic using heroes till they waste all their spellpoints, then attack with your main hero, at least that works on plains of despair.
____________

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted December 15, 2002 07:19 PM

Yes, that is what I am talking about.
That's why I can do it in 11 days or so.
I play in advanced.

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Youri
Youri

Tavern Dweller
posted December 15, 2002 07:39 PM

yeah i should give more spell points to hero then...thanks

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insatiable
insatiable


Supreme Hero
Ultimate N00bidity
posted December 15, 2002 08:37 PM

Quoting large paragraphs..

Quote:
This whole discussion just depresses me. IN the beginning I thought the use of heroes in battle was going to be a great and exciting thing!! But it is turning out to be a nightmare.

There is NO need for army at all anymore. The main strategy is built heroes and immortality potions and go kill everything. It is quite sad and very limiting on the game already.

I personally think that the Heroes need to have about 3 Times more defense BUT reduce there offence 4 times. Basically the point I am making is the HERO should be a support factor to your army. Hard to kill him....but yet he himself cannot bring your army down he can only support and help your actual army. This is how I invisioned the HERO when H4 was first released.

Not that anyone cares really, but as the current evolution
of H4 is progressing so far I will be bored and done with in in matter of weeks. H4 is only about the Barb rush. Forget about any and all other facits of the game, they need not apply.

Jinxer
...i guess some posts are crucial,,more eyes to see the better..why do i have to repeat when jinxer is right on spot..?
I WISH THIS POST'S NOTION PUZZLE MAPMAKERS FOR FUTURE MAPS


ps:...solutions are many,not only handicapping barb,,increasing creature potential in maps for example,,





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WhenPimpsAtt...
WhenPimpsAttack

Tavern Dweller
Drinker of Immortality potions
posted December 15, 2002 11:29 PM

Quote:
Yes, that is what I am talking about.
That's why I can do it in 11 days or so.
I play in advanced.


Try expert. You wont be able to do it then trust me, its highly questionable you can do it on advanced unless your lucky and get some major artifacts like the halberd of swiftwatch or something.

I tried it myself attacking on day 8, the best i could do was kill 3 out of 7 black dragons with a level 8 and level 7 barb. I didnt have any good artifacts though, but even if you did break through, the cost of pouring all those treasure chests and rejuve potions into your heroes will mean you cant build any creature structures and you will lose anyway in the long run, unless of course your opponent is off guard. But i doubt u can take his town before he sees you.
____________

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CraigHack
CraigHack


Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
posted December 16, 2002 06:44 AM
Edited By: CraigHack on 16 Dec 2002

Quote:
I had an interesting debate tonight.

A guy insisted that I cannot Barbarian rush him in two weeks (or 15-17 days) on the Plains of Despair map, advanced settings.



Well.... yeah.
But on day 15 you dont have anything at all. You have a couple of Fair Barbs but I have developed properly, I have 2 towns, both making Cyclopes and my Barbs are better than yours because I have been to the places that you didnt have time to go to and done the things that you should have been doing and my third Barb has been back with the boots for a week and I still have my potions and you come thru the gate and.... lose.

I dont see the point.
The Barbarian rush is nice but this Barbarian rush is doomed to fail because you have to give up something, time, proper development, a few Centaurs and 8-10 Thousand Gold for potions.

and some ToH points
____________
The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.

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