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| Thread: Does Religion fall apart once you decide to pick and choose? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 · NEXT» |
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Doomsday
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 18, 2002 12:23 AM |
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Does Religion fall apart once you decide to pick and choose?
Do you have to believe it all or does it fall apart once you start to pick and choose?
In Genesis we have our three first characters of our story... God, Adam, and Eve.
Eve eats a piece of fruit and from then on humanity is considered a sinful species. Instead of god turning his Etch-a-Sketch world upside down and shaking it, he lets them procreate and make many more sinners. So being the all knowing god he lets the sinning go on and on.
Then many years later he see's the error of his ways and decides that mass genocide is the best solution. It starts to rain....but being the nice guy that he is, he tells a man named Noah to build a boat that would carry 2 of each animal and his family. Ok now he takes some time to get 2 of each animal and figures out the diet for each species.
He stocks up on food for them and his family. He goes to his local Home Depot and buys some tools and shovels(or whatever they had access to back then). Tools for the boat and shovels for all the snow the animals will create after the rain gets bad.
So Noah becomes a nautical genius from the desert. 40 days and nights later he has a sandbar. Everyone gets out and starts the whole process over agian.
Well being that original sin was carried down to even Noahs family they didn't even have a second chance to be good(although "second" implies they weren't good the first time, which is misleading considering the original sin wasn't even theirs). Oh well Gods mistake. So people start reproducing agian left and right.
Then about 2000 years ago God decides to "rape" a virginal young woman so he can have this women give birth to his son. I know girls that try to lock guys into relationships this way too. Oh well God so loved his people (not the ones he flooded and killed) then he hired some jews (is this how they got the name The Choosen People?) to knock his son off by nailing him to some wood.
Well Jesus dies for our sins....but was it really a sacrifice after god went back on his word and resurected his son? Oh well now everyone is saved if they want to be...but it's allready been printed that he will do it all over agian (genocide).
Ok I know that is like the Douglas Adams cliff notes of the book. I know I missed alot of the killing, sex and incest...but Im pretty sure most of you all being good believers or decenters have read the book.
Now my question is...can you pick and choose parts of the book to believe in and yet still have the remainder of the book relevant? I think once you start to disbelieve any parts the continuity of the book is destroyed. Now Im wondering if anyone would agree with that or disagree with that?
Is it a religion based on a buffet or is it bite size where you have to take it all at once?
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 19, 2002 02:33 PM |
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I basically don't think religion should concentrate on dogma and text and more on the individuals relationship with god. What is right and moral is a matter for that god and the person and no-one else 
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted December 19, 2002 07:39 PM |
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Doomsday. You seem to be possibly lost as I once was only a week ago.
This post is for you. Read or not, I hope you relate to what I have.
I did halogenz.. messed myself up. I am a see to belive kind of guy cuz realities definition is to easy to change.
On the other hand, the other 50% of the time, I tried to *find god*, or belive in god. 12 step programs, familiy, chaplins, ect talked with me for year's.
The moment I desired was not from a combination of fact's I read. That *seemingly* unmistakeable moment was glorious, and I've hardly sinned since.
im struggling to hold faith, its hard after sin.
Today I had a drink, which turned into 8 more, then a bottle of tussin. If it were not for this oportunity I have to breathe and try to help,... thank you
doomsday, I wish you luck, and if you relate to my reality problem I can help you by showing you how I do not care about reality.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted December 19, 2002 09:46 PM |
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According to the Christian and Jewish texts, it's true that freedom of choice and individuality is discouraged - sometimes even forbidden. There are many lessons and stories in the bible I dislike.
I am Jewish but I only believe in what I find right, and in fact most of my most basic beliefs do go by the Jewish religion.
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ironmlh
Known Hero
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posted December 19, 2002 10:03 PM |
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Lame
Religion for the weak, for the people that `need' to believe in fairytales.and stories written by MAN not some false GOD.
Simple.
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"Knowledge has discarded all biblical teachings"
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted December 20, 2002 03:54 AM |
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If you claim that the bible is not written by man but god, how can you call him false? If you claim that man wrote the bible and there is no god, what is the difference between the bible and another story written by man?
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 20, 2002 06:12 AM |
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The very very very small difference is that the bible has been used to oppress people for 2000 years.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted December 20, 2002 11:20 AM |
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The communist manifesto has been used for 100 years for the same thing. So has the Koran, the Jewish writings, and the writings of any religion since the invention of the alphabet! Just taking the bible alone is unjust as any book can be deemed as evil or causing problems since it was published.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 05:53 AM |
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Sure, it´s not just the bible, people who are convinced to have found the absolute truth are dangerous in general, and history shows what happened when their ideology is spread and they gain power.
I´d like to add that Jews have been a peaceful people during most of history (until very recently) - don´t like to throw them into one pot with the others.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 07:24 AM |
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shouldn't this be in "the other side of the monitor"?
Doomsday…interesting synopsis…incorrect but quite entertaining.
I think the foundation of your argument is where the fallacy begins and then everything falls like dominoes thereafter. What God allowed us to have was freedom of choice…we aren’t born destined to sin…but we have a strong proclivity for it. He grants us grace by providing us 1. the power to abstain from our “sinful nature” and 2. provided his Son (aka himself) as the perfect atoning sacrifice to cover our multitude of sins. Pretty cool that he did that….or else he could of…to use your words…. turned the etch a sketch upside down and obliterated us all.
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“Is it a religion based on a buffet or is it bite size where you have to take it all at once?”
Religion that is buffet style is completely useless. You either take it all or don’t take any of it. Otherwise when you pick and choose what you want to believe you suddenly become “god” and determine what is right or wrong…so you might as well worship yourself….never figured out how someone can bow down to themselves or pray to themselves…but many people seem to try as they declare themselves the final arbitrator of right and wrong and find themselves talking to themselves much like a schizophrenic
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“The very very very small difference is that the bible has been used to oppress people for 2000 years.”
The very very very small reality is that the Bible and most of religious texts have uplifted the human spirit and mankind to unreachable levels leading to a magnitude of comfort, goodness, outreach, improvement, etc.
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“people who are convinced to have found the absolute truth are dangerous in general”
Hmm so let me see if I understand this….the absolute truth that all men are to be equal is somehow dangerous? The absolute truth that you should care and love for your neighbor is quite risky? The absolute truth to treat others as you want to be treated is somehow damaging to human relationships? Absolute truth is not the problem…defining what is absolute truth is the rub.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted December 21, 2002 10:13 AM |
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The very very very small reality is that the Bible and most of religious texts have uplifted the human spirit and mankind to unreachable levels leading to a magnitude of comfort, goodness, outreach, improvement, etc.
The most disgusting thing about Christianity is that it claims all the improvements for itself that had been made against the Christian churches.
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Hmm so let me see if I understand this….the absolute truth that all men are to be equal is somehow dangerous? The absolute truth that you should care and love for your neighbor is quite risky? The absolute truth to treat others as you want to be treated is somehow damaging to human relationships? Absolute truth is not the problem…defining what is absolute truth is the rub.
Absolute truths?? Those are some humanistic codes of behaviour, made to improve human social life. And by the way, certainly not invented by the Christians.
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Bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 21, 2002 01:34 PM |
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Okay, the thing about religion is that people can't just say "Here, we've got this God, and we think he's the snow. Read our books, check him out, and maybe we'll see ya down at the ol' church sometime." No, your God has to be the ONE TRUE GOD, and if I don't worship him, then I'm going to suffer eternal torment and suffering, and then you still have the gall to say that he loves me even if I sin. Yeah, I'm sure when I'm screaming and peeling my burning skin off in hell, God will look down at me and say "it's only because I love you so much." It's snow like THAT that doesn't win you many friends.
So yours is the one, true god, eh? Yeah, yours and every other society's since the dawn of time!
My spiritual beliefs are nobody's business but my own.
How about the way everyone uses their religion to kill people? More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than anyone else! So, when Osama bin Laden's god tells his followers to kill a few thousand infidels, that's the devil's work, but when YOUR god says to do it, then it's peachy keen, right? "But Christians would never do that!" Oh, yeah, I guess you forgot about the crusades, right? What's all this killing about, anyway? Doesn't sound very "loving" to me!
People are VERY quick to forget the mistakes made by their religion. Adolf snowing Hitler was praised by the pope, did you know that? How about Galileo, whom the church officialy apologized to just 20 years ago, for ruining this guy's life because he had the brains to figure out that earth revolved around the sun. And the catholic church admits they were wrong, like, what, three-hundred-odd years after it's made public knowledge?
You know what, God sounds like a pretty sick guy, in some ways. He makes tons of gay people and then says that being gay is wrong, and they'll go to hell. He gives people a biological desire for sex, and then says not to have any or they'll go to hell.
You know what else? I DO worship myself. I create my own reality. My individuality is the most important thing I have.
"It matters not how straight the gate/ how charged with punishment the scroll/ I am the master of my fate/ I am the captain of my soul." - William Ernest Henley, Invictus.
Y'know what that means, it means that when all is said and done, the person who calls the shots in my reality is ME. Not some may-or-may-not-exist guy up in the clouds, and not some book that was written to control people.
"The need for something greater than yourself ultimately diminishes the need for yourself." - Matt Good
And, ladies and gentlemen, I am DONE.
Tonight's rant was brought to you by the letters f, u, c, and k.
MAN, do I feel good!
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted December 21, 2002 06:41 PM |
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Okay, the thing about religion is that people can't just say "Here, we've got this God, and we think he's the ****. Read our books, check him out, and maybe we'll see ya down at the ol' church sometime." No, your God has to be the ONE TRUE GOD, and if I don't worship him, then I'm going to suffer eternal torment and suffering, and then you still have the gall to say that he loves me even if I sin. Yeah, I'm sure when I'm screaming and peeling my burning skin off in hell, God will look down at me and say "it's only because I love you so much." It's **** like THAT that doesn't win you many friends.
Yes, God loves you whatever you do, but the point is that you will only be saved if you also love Him. He does not want to see us suffering in hell, and because of Jesus we have the opportunity to be saved. God loves everybody, and He invites everybody to relationship with Him, but a relationship can never be effective if the love is not mutual. God could have forced us to love Him, but that would never be the same. I mean, you could make a robot and program it to say "I love you," but you would know that it only says so because you forced it. God loves us and gives us the opportunity to love Him back. And everyone who loves Him will live together with Him for eternity.
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How about the way everyone uses their religion to kill people? More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than anyone else! So, when Osama bin Laden's god tells his followers to kill a few thousand infidels, that's the devil's work, but when YOUR god says to do it, then it's peachy keen, right? "But Christians would never do that!" Oh, yeah, I guess you forgot about the crusades, right? What's all this killing about, anyway? Doesn't sound very "loving" to me!
I couldn't agree more. I don't think anyone who has killed in the name of Jesus Christ have really known Him. Jesus told us to "go and make disciples of all nations," but that doesn't mean we should kill everyone who won't believe! We should hate Satan, but love people, even those who serve him.
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You know what, God sounds like a pretty sick guy, in some ways. He makes tons of gay people and then says that being gay is wrong, and they'll go to hell. He gives people a biological desire for sex, and then says not to have any or they'll go to hell.
Well, there is a certain difference between BEING gay and ACTING gay. I might be wrong here, but I look at being gay as a handicap. I'm not gay, but if I had been, I would have tried to refrain from any sexual actions, and pray that God would heal me. About the sex thing, God wants us to have sex, but He told us to only have sex with our wife/husband. Sex is wrong IF ABUSED.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 22, 2002 03:34 AM |
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Well, I'm not gay either, but I know a few people who are, and I'm pretty sure they'd disagree with you. Why should it be anyone else's business what they do in the privacy of their own homes? Why should they be denied the opportunity to enjoy sex with someone they care about? They aren't hurting anybody!
Here's an argument I've heard a few times: "He chose to be gay." Well, if being gay is a choice, then it must be a choice that everyone is capable of making, right? So you try it! Go ahead, try and be attracted to someone of the same sex. Oh, wait, that's right, you won't do it because God wouldn't approve. Right.
The current scientific paradigm is that being gay is a genetic trait. It's not a "disease" to be cured, it's not a function of how you were raised, and it's certainly not a choice. It's like being tall, or having blue eyes, and it's nobody's business except for the person in question.
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Doomsday
Tavern Dweller
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posted December 22, 2002 04:00 AM |
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Well, there is a certain difference between BEING gay and ACTING gay. I might be wrong here, but I look at being gay as a handicap. I'm not gay, but if I had been, I would have tried to refrain from any sexual actions, and pray that God would heal me. About the sex thing, God wants us to have sex, but He told us to only have sex with our wife/husband. Sex is wrong IF ABUSED.
It's insensitive but I guess you can call being gay a "handicap."
But you ignored the real point.
The point was God CREATED all these gay people. Do you honestly feel they willingly chose to be "handicapped"?
According to your God these people deserve to go to hell just for being who they are, and not hurting anyone???
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 22, 2002 08:13 AM |
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It's only a handicap because our society doesn't tolerate rocking the boat. Go along to get along, and remember to thank god during acceptance speeches, etc.
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dArGOn
Famous Hero
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posted December 22, 2002 10:20 AM |
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"How about the way everyone uses their religion to kill people? More people have been killed in the name of Jesus Christ than anyone else! "
I guess you haven't bothered to actually research that subject before you open your mouth....that statement is irrevocably wrong. I have elaborated upon it elsewhere...so I will leave it to you to actually pick up a history book.
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"The point was God CREATED all these gay people."
Again I wish people would actually study the research on homosexuality instead of voicing their opinions as fact. Science has NEVER been able to show that homosexuality is solely genetic...in fact the strongest twin studies showed that only 40% of twins separated at birth actually had the same homosexual orientation…if it was biological determinism it would be 100%.....so I guess that throws the whole genetic destination theory completely out of the window (btw that was only for males...there has been no research whatsoever to link any genetic makeup to account for female homosexuality).
So in conclusion research has found there is a genetic predisposition or factor in homosexuality but there is definitely NOT a fatalistic determination based upon genetics.
Setting that aside…lets even say there is a genetic predisposition….I think we have a predisposition for many behaviors….one of many examples….there is biological drive as elaborated upon in Evolutionary theory for males to screw every woman that walks past them (survival of the fittest, perpetuating your genetic line, etc.)….just because we have that drive/predisposition does not mean it is good for us or for mankind. Some have pointedly done lots of research that shows there is a strong genetic element for crime/violent behavior. So just because there may or may not be a genetic element to a specific behavior does not in turn justify the original behavior in question.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 22, 2002 11:21 AM |
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So just because there may or may not be a genetic element to a specific behavior does not in turn justify the original behavior in question.
Maybe not, but the fact that it DOESN'T HURT ANYBODY does!
At what point did it become okay for you to tell anyone how to live? "I'm not telling them how to live, GOD is." Well, so you say. God hasn't popped into my bedroom and said "Bizud, here's the rules:" And then I hear that God would love to show himself to me, but I haven't opened myself to him, blah blah. So, unless I'm willing to take a HUGE leap of faith, I'm SOL, right? Well, then, tough nuggets for me, I don't take leaps of faith.
Here's a puzzler for ya: Why should I believe in YOUR God over any other god? Christianity is only one of MANY earthly religions, and it certainly wasn't first, so what's special about yours?
Now, maybe YOU need to do some research, because the tricky thing about lots of those twin studies is that after the guy who did them, Cyril Burt, died, they went looking through his files to write his biography, and guess what they discovered? He'd made it all up! Not a single page of empirical evidence! He'd just made it up so that he could have prestige and something to do, and evidently didn't really care about the pursuit of scientific truth at all. And, this not only discredited his work, but a lot of work that was done using his studies as a foundation.
And, Dargon, once again if you're saying that homosexuality is a choice that you can blame someone for making, then it must be a choice that everyone has the ability to make, right? So you try it! Come on, just TRY. Sit down and try to be sexually attracted to the same sex. Did I try? Well, yes. Just for research's sake, I sat down and tried to like boys instead of girls, and it sure as hell didn't work, because well, I'll be honest: I accept homosexuality as being normal and okay, but the thought of two guys going at it, it's, well...ugh. Shudder. TO ME. But you know what, that's okay, because I'm STRAIGHT! And chances are you are too, so don't be surprised when it doesn't work!
Now, this whole "gay gene" thing, they may be more accurate than you think, because the scientists working on decoding the now-completed human genome are pretty confident they've found it.
Another thing about those studies is that they fail to take into account that someone may not be telling the truth about their sexuality! Some sources estimate that at least 60% of gay people are still in the closet! That accounts for your twin discrepancy.
Anyway, this is all irrelevant! The fact is, some people are tall, some people are short, some people like pizza, and some people are gay. As long as you're not hurting anybody, you should be allowed to do whatever you please. I am master of my own reality, and everyone else should be masters of theirs.
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bizud
Known Hero
Mighty Donkey
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posted December 22, 2002 11:25 AM |
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I would like to add, in the defense of the big J, no matter what you think of Jesus Christ's religious teachings, you gotta admit, he was an admirable guy. He preached love, kindness, compassion, and equality, and refused to back down in the face of oppression, and even died for his beliefs. Props to him for that.
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Zune
Adventuring Hero
of Tatalia
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posted December 22, 2002 03:03 PM |
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I agree it's hard to imagine anyone choosing to be gay. But to me it's not relevant whether they have chosen to be gay, or whether they were born that way, because in any case you can choose whether you want to do homosexual actions.
As far as I know, the Bible doesn't say that just being gay is wrong, but it certainly says that homosexual actions is wrong. And as a Christian, I believe that the Bible is God's words, and therefore, that its teachings are right.
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