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| Thread: LordLazy's guide to magic heroes |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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rychenroller
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted March 12, 2003 01:23 PM |
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Thats coz your mother doesnt qualify as a good opponent.
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Myctteakyshd
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silx87
Supreme Hero
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posted March 13, 2003 01:09 AM |
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Magic ROOCKS!!
If any of ya losers wantsta prove me wrong,well,u just have to get in line and wait a month er mo,currently tryna move over to a better machine,so can't play enethin online for a while.
Maybe I aint the right person to teach u a lesson bout magic though.Let Lazy do that while I go learn to play.
Until I haven't lost a game online(haven't even played yet)I can't be convinced otherwise!
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted March 13, 2003 11:50 AM |
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I can try and prove you're wrong on an small WOG map with no under. Don't expect miracles, I'm not the best player in the world  .
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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silx87
Supreme Hero
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posted March 14, 2003 12:26 AM |
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Quote:
I can try and prove you're wrong on an small WOG map with no under. Don't expect miracles, I'm not the best player in the world .
Me neither.
2 problems:
1.Don't have WoG,doesn't work on comp
2.Can't play online right now,sorry,too slow comp right now,goin to a better one soon.
Sometime in the near future maybe.
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted March 14, 2003 12:44 AM |
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Why WOG??? What is the thing that make WOG so great for your lord_woock???
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Dig Out Your Soul
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted March 14, 2003 12:10 PM |
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The commanders  . And lots more.
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted March 14, 2003 03:06 PM |
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I guess u don't play randoms then WOOCK 
I agree thou.......commanders are cool
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted March 14, 2003 03:10 PM |
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Well, I do play a bit of randoms. Why do you say I don't?
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Yolk and God bless.
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My buddy's doing a webcomic and would certainly appreciate it if you checked it out!
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LordLazy
Promising
Famous Hero
Wood cleaner
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posted March 14, 2003 03:12 PM |
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coz WoG messes them randoms up 
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Tagged officially as Noobegian two years ago. This typographic material is strictly copyrighted. All situations containing abuse will be brought to court.
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lord_crusader
Promising
Supreme Hero
UHU!! supreme!
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posted March 14, 2003 10:07 PM |
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commanders ?
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Dig Out Your Soul
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Gangrail
Promising
Famous Hero
Dead Man
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posted March 15, 2003 05:23 PM |
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Once you play WoG you will see why. WoG does what 3do should have done in the 1st place. And commanders are like heroes as in they gain skills and get stronger as the game goes on and are on the battlefield and can be killed. If you haven't tried WoG yet I suggest you do IMHO Also any map played in the new WoG IS a random map. Even fixed maps are never the same.
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Odvin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 16, 2003 03:00 PM |
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Small w/o under? That's just funny, IMHO, no magic can beat rampart/stronghold/fortress there if it rushes. Try getting some good spells for dungeon on a small map w/o under in the few weeks you have until Crag's behemoths rush you out...
So small maps w/o under don't count, that's just not serious. No time for mages to advance. Get Shakti for dungeon, upgrade trogs day 1, head for manticores, then maybe you might be able to do something vs. Crag and his behemoths... maybe
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Odvin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted March 16, 2003 03:45 PM |
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I've just played a sample game few minutes ago to prove my words...
The map was random S w/o underground, 130% hotseat for 2 players.
One was Might player: Rampart with Ivor (Elves special), bonus - artifact (dunno why I chose it, better to choose crystals).
The other player was Magic player: Dungeon with Deemer (M.Shower special), bonus - artifact (got Stoic Watchman, completely useless).
I did the best I could for both players... Maybe I've done something wrong, correct me if so.
Ivor luckily got 7 elves at the beginning of the game, plus Kyrre who was in the tavern brought 3 more elves with her. Building elves day 1, so I got a pack of elves at the very beginning. Soon Ivor defeats some halflings guarding the prison and frees Jaegar, who gives him some trogs and harpies. Building town hall, dendros, dendro arches and castle in wk1, trading all resources for money on day 1 wk2 so I get 11 dendros, 25 elves and some more stuff.
In the magic player's tavern there are two dungeon heroes - Alamar and Lorelei, hiring them both and getting the forces through it. Deemer gets +2 power and basic earth from chests and learning stone, so his m.shower does 125 damage. Heading for manticores week 1, so I get 4 of them wk2 + some other stuff.
Ivor breaks through a horde of skeleton warriors and lots of archers and lays siege to the magic hero's town. Manticores were a little annoying for the first time, but when the dendros reached them, they became nothing. A horde of troglodytes was also rather dangerous, but it was eliminated by dendros and elves. Two meteor showers killed all the centaurs left in Ivor's army, plus some elves, but that didn't help much. Catapult breaks the walls and dendros come inside. Ivor wins the battle.
The result could be even better if I chose not the rampart but, for example, stronghold or maybe fortress. Mages just can't get the so needed exp. to cast powerful spells on those maps.
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idiotpariah
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 28, 2007 08:10 AM |
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Magic Heroes
I'm another big fan of the magic heroes. A few pro's and cons:
cons
Start off with a useless skill (wisdom). Useless as in it it useless for quite some time and its a skill every hero get's offered at level 5 anyway.
Much more difficult to get some of the best skills (logistics, offence/archery, armourer, tactics)
Get offered more crap skills (mysticism, learning, scholar, intelligence for wizards).
Takes more resources to build up the town mage guild.
Pro:
Can start with a battle winning spell (solmyr is a GREAT hero)
Are likely to get an EXPERT magic much faster. Heroes who start with a magic skill are guaranteed Expert by level 5.
Town portal/dimension door/fly mean your hero can travel faster than any other and can sometimes collect heavily guarded treasures without a fight.
A lot depends on the map size, the players and the players access to one another. The smaller the map, the less useful magic heroes are- they don't have the time to get the fully built mage guild or a decently rounded secondary skill set. This might be offset by one of the spell specialists if they get enough knowledge and power early to make it a battle winner. Generally on a small/middle map the might will win through. On a large or extra large map it depends on access- if an early rush is possible might will again win through. One exception is if the opponent has solmyr (more on that later). On an XL map or L map with underhground the magic will win through due to the high level movement spells. If the mage guild doesnt have any of them then the magic player has lost a lot of his advantage.
Another important aspect is the number of similar towns. The more similar towns a player has the more useful a might hero becomes relative to the magic one. That is to say if both players can get 3/4 towns esrly on of the same type the might skills boosts become much more powerful. If only one or two towns or towns of mixed alignment, the magic player has more chance.
To clarify: Lets assume the players meet after 8 weeks and both heroes are level 20. The magic hero has 12 spell power and implosion. The might player has 6 weeks of Level 7 creature- lets say 13 ancient behemoths. They have a total of 3600 health. The magic hero can kill them with 3 implosions+ he has his own creatures. He will probably win the overall battle. But if they each have two towns of the same type then there will be 26 ancient behemoths and the magic hero will be only denting the stack before getting torn to pieces.
A further aspect is the player difficulty level and resources. On an impossible difficulty level both players would have a lot of trouble building their town rapidly meaning that they will have fewer creatures. The extra attack and fighting secondary skills of the might hero will have less benefit. The mage player won't have high level spells. However if he is a spell specialist (meteor storm, chain lighting, inferno/fireball) he doesn't need the mage guild for in battle offence and thus will be very powerful.
Spell specialists (of the good spells) have a significant boost in several situations. First they can often overcome a powerful stack of archers much faster than a might hero can. They will also take fewer losses in close battles. They can also prevent enemy rushes. If they have a faster creature than the might hero they can (at cost) whittle away enemy forces by attacking, casting then retreating. This is much easier if the enemy is coming to your territory (+1sp). This is also another reason for investing in an artifact merchants if you have the money and option- a cloak of velocity +2 speed makes this tactic much easier). Otherwise a bunch of crap stacks may be able to survive long enough for the same tactic. Armageddon and a black dragon/several stacks of efreeti is a magic heroes wet dream.
One hero (castle town, can't remember which) starts with summon boat which can make a massive difference on some maps. (E.g. warmongers you can attack the PC much faster and gather a LOT of wood, gold and artifacts before anyone else has a chance).
Often you can't simplify the situation to a battle between human players- if you do the might hero will usually win, but the magic hero has opportunities to more than even the playing field in other ways outside the battle field:
1) less losses against shooters
2) Can destroy some high level stacks much earlier (e.g. hydras- mass slow then lighning bolts while dancing around).
3) With fly/dimension door can pick up pandoras boxes/the best artifacts early, often without needing to fight. If you can get the helm of heavenly enlightenment first or get to that dragons utopia first the boost is significant. They can also travel for a lot longer with these spells without needing a well.
4) With resurrection (or animate dead) can almost ensure losing no troops against the PC. In a later vs. battle the might players troops may be better but he may well have far fewer.
5) Can allow you to give most of your troops to a secondary hero so he can explore/advance faster while your main hero uses magic to get the job done.
The magic hero on a larger map is alwys my preference because the have more strategic and tactical options. Its partly a gamblers choice because if you get poor higher level spells in your mage guild/s you are meat, if you get a couple of the best ones then the odds are with you. This also means that the magic player must guard towns with the vital spells jealously- they must not fall to the might player- of COURSE he has wisdom but it means nothing unless he gets those key spells.
Nowadays I almost never play vanilla Heroes3. WOG is SO MUCH BETTER. I would also say it has made magic heroes more powerful (depending on your wog choices of course) by:
1) Allowing you to destroy buildings (i.e. mage guild) preventing the enemy getting the spells easily
2) Mithril can change the skills of witch huts making it esier to get the better skills via them.
3) The crappest skills have been improved- heroes who start with learning are usually my first choice of hero and mysticism is a MUST HAVE skill. Even scholar and eagle eye are useful and mitigate against getting poor spells in your mage guild (still more for your second hero than your first though).
Slightly off topic:
Another post has been bouncing about that Solmyr is a crap hero. I disagree, he is very useful in a lot of circumstances, come end game with a lot of creatures chain lighting may no longer be much use.
He can take weakly defended towns very easily whereas a might hero will struggle getting past the towers/wall.
A couple of advances will net you enough knowledge or air magic to allow him 2 or more casts of chain lighting early.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 28, 2007 10:29 AM |
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This topic seems as if it were originally made by somebody who didn't believe in the subject matter and was just trying to give it a fair shake. No offense, but you cannot really sell a guide if you don't even believe in what you're saying, because the presentation comes across as half-hearted.
I used to solely be a magic hero player. Reading strategies of others, I'm quickly finding out how important a good might hero is TO START WITH. After the first few days though, there is no reason a magic hero cannot begin to shine. Reason being that after a few days, you're going to have creatures that will do the fighting and then magic can be used to enhance that or in sticky situations where just brute force and sheer numbers aren't in your favor.
The fact that might heroes can learn magic and that with artifacts, can achieve knowledge and power comparable to a magic hero is the ONLY reason that a statement such as might is always better could ever be true. A magic hero's shortcomings are that he needs to recharge the source of his power and that the incidence of spells is random. In a way, I think this makes magic heroes more interesting as it's NOT always the same creatures from the same city each and every time you play.
People have their preferences. Maybe might and magic isn't perfectly balanced. Still, I didn't think this topic's opening post gave it a fair shake. I think the reason some people outright bash magic hero users is because they've never played a good one. You can tell by the way they talk. Some of the things said I happen to know simply aren't true and I'm not that great of a player.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 28, 2007 01:50 PM |
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A magic hero only has advantage in first week I would say...on higher difficulty maybe second week also. But then it stops. A magic hero already has problems vs golems or dragons, while I can't think of a fight week 2 / 3 , where are magic hero has advantage over a might one. Coz this is the time, where the might should have his mass slow or mass haste already, and this is when his advantage starts (at latest). Take a conservatory with 5 times 30 griffins for example. Both will cast mass slow on round 1. And in round 2? You barely have enough spellpower week 2 (on a map with average richness) to kill 30 griffins with 1 lightning bolt. But a might hero has offense, higher attack and could kill 30 griffs with 2 attacks. A magic hero will surely die in such a conservatory.....or just don't try to attack it. But this is exactly the reason why the might hero has the advantage, He will take it, and then he will have 3 more anngels in his army, which are a hugh force to help him fight and develop even further. Like taking full medusa store (with 3 angels). Or full dwarvern trea´sury, etc... This all brings money and experience points the magic hero will miss at the same time.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 28, 2007 04:35 PM |
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Thank you for making my point. In your own post, you've spoken as if magic heroes ONLY have their starting stats, lightning bolt, etc while talking as if a might hero is leveling up and has mass slow. Why can't a magic hero have mass slow? Why aren't they leveling up so that even their lightning bolt (as if that is all they have going for them) isn't going to be a powerful compliment to a creature's hit not unlike having 5 more attack skill would?
Besides, the topic was a guide from magic users. Not is might or magic better. My point is that it was written with certain pre-conceived notions not unlike the one's you've displayed and should be written instead by somebody who regularly uses magic heroes, and effectively.
That said, I recognize that I'm not the best player, and mean no disrespect. In MANY threads, the advantages of the might heroes are toted, so if this one thread purports to be a guide for magic users, it should be just that. I don't think it's unreasonable that the thread give magic heroes a fair shake instead of being tainted with suggestions that a magic hero only has lightning bolt as an example.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 28, 2007 11:34 PM |
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Quote:
Thank you for making my point. In your own post, you've spoken as if magic heroes ONLY have their starting stats, lightning bolt, etc while talking as if a might hero is leveling up and has mass slow. Why can't a magic hero have mass slow? Why aren't they leveling up so that even their lightning bolt (as if that is all they have going for them) isn't going to be a powerful compliment to a creature's hit not unlike having 5 more attack skill would?
I don't wanna go too far off topic now, coz as u mentioned, there are many other threads about that topic (might or magic). But seems u didn't read my post properly.
I said BOTH cast mass slow first round (in my example vs the griffins), but the 2nd round will be interesting. Of course magic heroes can learn other spells than lightning bolt, but which others would they have week 2? Hard to believe u will have built level 4 mageguild in week 2. So lightning bolt will be the most powerfull spell in 90% of all cases.
You mentioned "...5 more attack skill...". This is the interesting and often underestimated part. 5 more attack skill means 25% more damage...FOR EACH CREATURE STACK IN A MIGHT HEROS's ARMY!!. So If I have 7 stacks, every stack will deal 25% more damage coz of higher attack skill and 30% coz of expert offense. Makes 55%. EVERY round on the battlefield! Your magic hero deals ONE time magic damage, normaly on ONE enemy stack. This is the difference.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted March 29, 2007 12:42 AM |
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Edited by Yasmiel at 00:45, 29 Mar 2007.
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I think the problem for this imbalance is VERY high population (and overall weekly HP production) in H3 towns.
In H2, meeting a magic hero was not pleasant even tho a/d difference gave you +10% per point.
Stacks were gaining about 50-150 HP per week in H2, while in h3 weekly stacks got about 300-600 HP. At same time, spell damages didn't get that increase.
Maybe if there wasn't separate primary skill gain percentages after level 9, heroes like warlock would manage to get decent SP to offset, but even then i doubt it would be enough to confront might heroes with humongous HP amounts on his troops.
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Demarest
Known Hero
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posted March 29, 2007 03:24 AM |
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Edited by Demarest at 07:04, 29 Mar 2007.
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Well yes, higher attack can lead to greater damage. Or a better overcoming of picking a fight with a stronger creature to begin with. But when a might hero casts mass slow, is it because their units will inflict more damage? No, it is because there is more to the game than JUST brute force. Don't forget that just because a magic hero doesn't excel in attack and defense, they ARE still carrying the same army. Just that a magic hero prefers to manipulate aspects of the battle to enhance those creatures instead of JUST boosting their skills. Plus, if you're going to bring a second level spell into the demonstration of how magic heroes are limited, I think it's fair to say that in bigger fights, Blind is far more powerful that Lightning Bolt. And will last a lot longer for a magic hero
I'm not saying one's right and the other is wrong. Just suggesting that maybe that those that DO feel that way might be wrong.
@Satyrocon: Saying that magic heroes fail because of the Orb of Inhibition is like saying magic heroes rule because of Meteor Shower. And one is more likely to come upon Meteor Shower than they are the Orb of Inhibition. Plus one could say that magic heroes rule because of the Orb of Vulnerability. You're going to find artifacts that enhance EVERY aspect of the game, so it's sort of a moot point. Plus, when you think about it, there are more artifacts that contribute to a magic hero's overall influence than there are that would inhibit him. You can bring up the Orb of Inhibition, the Recanter's Cloak (which is a boundary, not an inhibition), and the resistance artifacts. For magic users, there's orbs, tomes, spell power boosters... Hell, even Knowledge boosters. If nothing else, start any given map and compare the number of resistance artifacts to the number of spell scrolls in your immediate area
Perhaps I should sit this convo out. I am traditionally a magic using hero and decided to join this forum because I enjoyed how some of the reading I've done here have better shown me the value of might heroes and such. I'm trying to learn. And I'm not at all saying magic heroes are better. I just felt that the ONE thread devoted to them should've been done better. It's unfortunate that nobody earlier on chose to make a point of using magic heroes to give them better representation.
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