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Heroes Community > Tournament of Honor > Thread: Which map type do you prefer?
Thread: Which map type do you prefer? This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT»
dEth8
dEth8


Promising
Known Hero
posted March 25, 2001 07:28 AM

Love it

Mocara,

You had some great thoughts there in your post.

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plzno
plzno

Tavern Dweller
posted March 25, 2001 03:28 PM

OPEN MAP is fair?? don't think so.


In most case of open map playing, it is very rare that the game get fair.

That's because of the low statues of heroes ability (bout 10 lvl ??) and not enough artifacts... and.. only one town.. (that means only one mage guild..)

Even my lvl 14 hero happen to failed to get necessary 2nd skills (such as Exp. Logi or earth /air and mass haste or mass slow) while stupid enemy player got only
10 level hero with mass slow or mass haste.

Or. my hero with 15 spell power could be overwhelemed by
only 10 spell power enemy hero with superior high level spells. (while all I get in my mage guild is damn waterwalk
and SORROW!!)

Open map is most luck based.  most unfair!!

CLOSED map is fair.
Hero level is much higher than open map's.. so hero 2nd
skills unfairness can be reduced...
spells... 2 or 3 town is both player's side.. also.. more
chance to get even spells each other.
artifacts.. are fair. both players have too many artis. so there are less possiblity of severe unfairness.
But. closed map is boring.

so. Random map will be the best.
Unfairness?? Luck based??
If it is random large or above.. there are less possiblity of unfairness than being thought.
Coz. both player explore many towns and build mage guilds..  get many artifacts.. spells... pandora boxes..
Lots of towns. hero experiences.. artifacts..  
is best way to guaranty fairness of the game.

Moreover random map is not boring as closed map.

Random large will be my best choice


   
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ironmlh
ironmlh


Known Hero
posted March 30, 2001 12:23 AM

VOTE VOTE VOTE

need more players to vote, only 25 votes so far. I would like to see alot more votes plz.

ironmlh

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jb239
jb239


Famous Hero
posted March 30, 2001 06:45 AM

my oppinion on it...as if it matters, but who cares

As bein someone who makes maps...both open and closed I would just say they both can be fun, but more or less it comes down to who you play on them. If you play a weaker opponent you prolly will find you can run over them fast on an open map, but if you play someone close in the same skill range then you get them good duels and lots of interaction, because lets face it...I played newbies on open maps and I get as many fights there as I do on a closed map because they can't defend against me.

As for random maps, I have nothing against them, however I prefer never to play them after having to restart over 1/2 my games on them due to poor quality created. worst thing to find is you cant reach your opponent 3 hours later or having a box will all lv 5 spells near you or your opponent...sure you can agree not to use them, but what if you lose half ur army hopin for somethin good? reload? such a hassle....

but all I suggest is play what you like and there no need to complain

jb239
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I will not lose.

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Mocara
Mocara


Famous Hero
what?
posted March 30, 2001 12:12 PM

I FIGURED IT OUT!!!

Closed maps are by far the best when I get better combination artifacts from my dragon utopia!!

Hmmmm

Wait...I also like open maps as long as I win. Those are always fun.

And random maps are not too bad as long as my opponent gets stuck w/Gold Dragons in front of his town and I get 15 griffon conservatories by my town...yeah I like that the best.

And road maps are good too. Like for when I get lost and stuff.

And if anyone has a map for buried treasure please mail it to me because I would really like to go dig up the treasure.

Thanks, Mocara
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0mnipresent
0mnipresent

Tavern Dweller
posted April 01, 2001 08:17 PM

hm.. this demands a comment.

i like  playing the maps i haven't played before. this includes closed maps and random maps. sure luck is important in random maps but is not the main thing. it's how do you play and how can you manage a different town/hero.

i like it because i want to see real skills and not just, know-it-all-map-and-know-my-strategy-for-the-first-2-months. where is the game there if you know your moves for the month or so?

i want too see a player playing dungeon or tower or rampart or castle and any other town. not just playing his favourite dungeon with jeddie or rampart with kyrre if you know what i mean.

one thing i don't like about random maps is too many teleports, it not realistic.

to finish this,i think that new map, never played by any of the players, or random l size with or without underground best thing for online play.

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kerberos_gr
kerberos_gr


Hired Hero
posted April 03, 2001 09:16 PM

the struggle of classes in TOH(are you a marxist without knowing it? :)

After 5 months (of active participation in TOH,(yep i m still a newbie ,i know :-)),i ve realised a few things that i would like to share with you guys ( concerning the map issue).First of all, that toh has an hierarchical structure(i guess thats obvious,there are points and ranks)and second,that little by little the players are forming classes (with their distinctive characteristics).There are 3 classes in TOH (i think),and all of them have one purpose:To reach the top of the hierarchy.The top is translated in the world of TOH(and msn zone)in 2 things.First ,to be able to play whenever you want,with really good and honourable players ,in other words have fun,and the second is to be respected,to be able to chat with the veterans (in the msn zone)and not get ignored,and also to get protection and support ,if someone attacks you (verbally),from other toh members(i think this is the only efficient way to win a fight in the zone).Now the 3 classes in toh are :1st the plebes and the cadets,where its very difficult to find a decent game and ,you get often attacked (without mercy lol)(btw ,i m not against the hierarchy of TOH,or TOH itself(on the contrary lol,Toh its the only reason i continue to play homm after 5 years of constant heroes playing)i m just trying to describe the situation here).The 2nd class is the sergeants,lieutenants and some veteran cadets.That is the middle class ,the real wannabes of toh ,they want to be "recognized" in the toh world,they want ...some respect.
Now the 3d class is the captains,the colonels,generals.Thats the "elite" class of TOH,the...right stuff.Everybody wants to play against them(hoping that he will win,and get some (easy) credit from the toh community).They have earned respect ,and also some influence (i presume) on the toh stuff and on the decisions made by them.A common characteristic of all the elit classes is that they are conservative(they try to conserve their position and their previleges against the wannabes .And how they manage to do that ,but of course by controling the means of production (as uncle Marx used to say ).In our case the means of production are the maps (and the, know how of them).Lets not forget that its the clan leaders and the division leaders who decide about the maps,and of course they choose the maps that they know better(not random maps ,of course), in order to have an advantage over the adversary.Also its not coincidential at all ,that most of the top players dont play random maps for standard toh games(because they will loose their advantage of  knowing the particular map better,and the risk is too high for them).On the other hand the other 2 classes in order to reach the top, and earn some recognizition,they have to confront and beat the 3d class.But in order to achieve that they must compete with them on the popular maps that the top players tend to prefer(otherwise the top player dont agree to play with them).So all TOH(thousands of members) end up  playing the same maps over and over again.Of course this situation disadvantages the 2 inferior classes,because they dont have the know how of the popular maps,so they usually loose,thats why they prefere RANDOM maps(they have nothing to loose,and if they play better or get lucky they might win too).I think before we decide to the dilema TOH OR RANDOM MAPS ,we must answer the following questions:WHO IS THE BETTER PLAYER? 1)the dedicated,the player who has done his homework,and managed with hard work and skill to elaborate the perfect strategy for 5 or 6 maps,OR 2)the player who adapts better and faster to new situations and challenges.2)WHAT DO WE WANT? a STATIC and rather SAFE tournament OR a tournament with MOBILITY,SURPRISES(good and bad)and increased UNCERTAINTY 3)if TOH changes the rules (and forbids a player to play a particular map over, lets say 5 times),will the rankings remain the same? or we will witnesse a massive invasion of the middle class into the territory of the 3 class?4)IS THERE SO MUCH DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A NEWBIE KILLER AND A GUY WHO HAVE PLAYED A MAP OVER 30 TIMES AND HE IS FACING AN OPPONENT WHO HAS PLAYED THE SAME MAP LETS SAY 3 TIMES? 5)HOW CAN WE DECREASE THE LUCK ELEMENT OF RANDOM MAPS (maybe toh could ask for volunteers in order to produce a few dozens of random maps and do some minimal editing ,concerning all 5 mines and major relics).6)IS IT FAIR FOR THE LEGENTS OF TOH ,THE TRUE GRANDMASTERS OF THE GAME, TO HAVE THE SAME RANK WITH SOMEGUYS WHO PLAY THE SAME 2 OR 3 MAPS OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN?.
Well i dont know,i guess the only one who can answer those questions is the stuff of toh,i dont say that they are responsible for all that,they are already doing a great job and i am greatfull for that ,i really am.But after all they run TOH,so they have the responsibility to choose what direction the tournament will take.
P.S i m a lieutenant and i play only random maps

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Zud
Zud


Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
posted April 03, 2001 09:43 PM

Interesting but not totally correct

Interesting thoughts, but not totally correct at least "for me" I stopped playing random maps just because "in my opinion" the random generator needs a lot of improvement still.  I have actually loaded over and over with an opponent random maps and still did not have a good one to play after more that 2+hours of tryin.  and what may appear to be a good map, after the match I can see that one of us had access to 3/4 of the map and resources while the other is limited to a very small area.  Many of my most enjoyable games (with people I know and trust)have been played by downloading a new map neither of us has seen and playing it blind.  (at least its balanced, without crap scrolls, conservatories, cartographers and pandora boxes ect all over) I also try to find a few new good maps every week or so. I cant imagine what I would do if I was limited to the # of times I can play a map tho , I love a few, not because I have em down to a science, to me each game is very different, heroes arts, guards ect., but they are well balanced and make for a very fun game. hell with approachin 600 toh games what maps would I play??
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Winner or Whiner?

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ironmlh
ironmlh


Known Hero
posted April 03, 2001 11:29 PM

New, blind maps VS Random

I have had very good luck with random maps(i dont mean winning) just overall fun and interactive game play, i have played around 20 random maps and have only found a few that were totally unbalanced, Guess that why they are `Random' They are so much more fun for me, thats why i play them.

Blind maps are another one of my favorites but no one(very few) players will believe me when i tell them i have not played `xxxxx' map. There was one player that was very trustworhty and we would play a new map everytime we played, but he disappeared on me and i have not been able to setup a `blind' game since.  If any of you out there like to play a new `blind TOH map'  find me on the zone.

ironmlh

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kerberos_gr
kerberos_gr


Hired Hero
posted April 04, 2001 05:26 AM

Concerning my last reply,i would like to clarify something,i m not saying that random maps are perfect,far from that,sometimes they are unbalanced,and thats a big problem.But if TOH could find a solution (with the help of the entire toh community)producing (massively) more balanced "RANDOM" maps,this could be a great step ahead.In reality we can never achieve a totaly balanced random map,but still we can assure some basic things,like easy access to all the mines and maybe some balance concerning the major artifacts.I thing this should be enough,in the long run the luck element will be balanced for each player,after all ,you cant always be unlucky.Btw when i was writing my first post i saw a "zone" discussion which describes very well todays toh reality.Here you are :

Greystole> a good idea is to learn a popular map really well and stick to it, or to randoms for a while
Greystole> lots of people know a particular map so well that if you don't know what your objectives are you don't really stand a chance
watchdog1977> thanks for the advice what are some popular maps
(Enter)> Exenterpress
watchdog1977> so i can practice offline
(Exit)> Exenterpress
(Exit)> Rjar98
Greystole> hourglass is a biggie....if you practice offline, play at, say, 160%
(Enter)> TopJcdj25
Greystole> anybody else wanna suggest a popular map?
(Enter)> Exenterpress
(Exit)> Lord_Ravenshore
Greystole> I don't know if Desert War is still big, I don't play it at all
Grand_elf> reclamation
jb239> good to go
Grand_elf> arena
Greystole> reclaimation, YEAH!
Greystole> heh
Greystole> one of my favorites...long map, though, usually
Grand_elf> yeah, diplo map
jb239> too long for toh play
Greystole> not like it used to be
watchdog1977> cool thx
Greystole> it used to be a diplomat's dream
Greystole> but they "fixed" it, heh
Greystole> I actually like long maps
(Enter)> shef_f
Greystole> the big problem with reclaimation now is that green has path to one castle blocked by artifact guard
Greystole> the castle that's prebuilt to city hall; red hasn't got the same block

P.S i have nothing against Greystole ,on the contrary,he is one of the most honourable TOH members i have ever met,and a damn good player,he is just describing  a reality in order to protect and help a newbie to survive in the TOH world






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dstg
dstg


Hired Hero
posted April 04, 2001 03:15 PM

closed maps

I like closed maps.  They are all about speed and efficientcy in clearing your area and breaking out.  Offsets descrepincies in heroes and artifacts.  Sorry ironmlh i cant seem to vote on this comp.  It says i am not in the database but quite clearly i am because i am writing this.  
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Defreni
Defreni


Promising
Famous Hero
posted April 04, 2001 10:42 PM

Hmm I dont like idealism (At least when it aint mine)

Nice post Kerberos, but i must say i dont agree totally. If ur theori is correct i should be upper class (lol) and that i aint, but i dont like to play random, prolly coz i aint good at it, and partly because i dont think its that funny. But whenever i can, I try to play new maps, with a set time to look at map ed. like 5 min or so. That way neither me nor my opponent has anything figured out, but both of us has a general idea about what the objectives are on the map. So the c´hance of overstretching ur ressources arent that big. Ive had some memorable games on maps i didnt know. But for the question wether it should be open or closed i must say that anybody snowing about the possibility of railroading a newbie on an open map is kinda of inconsistent. Dont play newbies on open maps. Hehee, i love open maps, specially when im about the same skill as my opponent, that way it might be the level 4 guild that decides, but it can also be the 14 serpent flie joiners in week one that can do the trick. As for closed maps, well i dont like em much. Thats my 5 cents
Defreni
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kerberos_gr
kerberos_gr


Hired Hero
posted April 05, 2001 05:48 AM

hello defreni ,first of all i would like to say that i dont try to elaborate a theory here(its impossible to define and explain the behaviour of 15.000 TOH members writing a simple reply(even if its a long one(btw sorry guys about that ).The only thing i m trying to do here is to describe some TRENDS,and to communicate with heroes communitty about a key issue,MAPS.I know that there are thousands  exceptions (I could even name some ,like JOE THE LOOSER or KUMA_NO_TSUME,they play mostly random maps although they are colonels),but the big picture remains the same,the trends are still there...
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Maxym
Maxym


Known Hero
posted April 05, 2001 08:04 AM

Striking a death blow to the Marxist theory of TOH

At the time of writing this i am first in rankings, don't ask me why and from last 3 weeks i have decided not to play TOH maps. (how can marxist theory explain a 3rd class player like me? J/K Kerberos) Not that they are bad, just a bit repetitive, usually involve a mad rush to the middle and are played  by many people to "perfection"
well maybe perfection is not the word, i remember a couple of conversations that make a case in point. I think I will use names and if ti proves that people don't want their opinions heard more broadly, I won't do it anymore. But here it goes:
I have challenged Vazelin for his shield on BM. I have played few games there with mixed results and against lower ranks when i was also a SGT, so i knew what was there but not necessarily how to play. I was  castle and tried for the lv7 but fell short. But i did have my portal of glory in town built, and my 2nd town was dungeon so i got that lost angel back. I think i am doing ok with this setup against vazelin's Inferno. Then W2d6 comes along and he breaks out with Adevils and sultans, implodes my angels and the game is over. He got Tome of E abd +4 A/D armor. I thnk him for the game and we chat for a while on how did he do it.
later on I talk to Wuderior about forming a Polish division, and a topic of my game with Vaz comes up in conjunction to him losing his shield to Badangel. I ask how did Badangel beat Vaz on that map, remembering lastplace's warning not to play Vaz there coz u are gonna lose. And wuderior tells me how badangel did it. He lost to Vazelin once, looked at how he did it and exploited his weakness. I am not going to say how, i am sure vazelin would like to keep using this strategy
So far not too exciting story, eh? Recently i played Phantom and the origin of vazelin's  "unbeatable strategy" come out, he tells me he thumped Vaz with that strategy which HE originally developed. So this is how TOH maps are played:  mechanistically and repetitively with good strategies going from player to player and lots of unsuspecting victims getting slaughtered in between
So once a strategy gets established all you have to do to win is to run your side faster and/or get better arties and spells. Not too exciting
I am not a big fan of open maps either, the way initial towns heroes fall on those not to mention camps can win the game. And i always play random town and heroes with no rules, maybe H&R. There are some maps that are a perfect balance between an open map which can be too easy to get unbalanced by luck and a closed maps where there is no interaction between players. And one of those maps is Battle for Power. I know there are topias and relics and they can go either way, but there are also 2 libraries to even things out, and the underground relics can be picked up if they are good. There also used to be a chance to get right spells also in middle town, now restricted to lv3 (Jinxer if you are reading this consider letting it go to lv4) The side with good spells won't rush for it, while the disadvantage side can be saved by it. There are aclso a couple of other features which can be used to restore balance. It is an open map with lots of interaction from week 1, and a lot of time for buildup. This is because the central desert discourages a rush, by the time a low level hero makes it across it's a new week. Later int he game with fast creatures and log you can do it in 5 days. And the map  is set up in such a way that there are many ways of playing it well without mindless running the same path. Sure the 1st couple of days will be repetitive but then you see whats out there and have to  make decisions as to what approach to take.
So this was a an open map, now randoms:
I have played few randoms with mixed results in the past and wasn't too impresed with them. But now witht he KoR rules and rules I have learned from those who play lots of randoms, I think they can be made very enjoyable. Not always fair but not completely unbalanced either. And another thing when playing random maps is , yes individual maps might be more or less fair, but if you play an number of them things will even out. And randoms afford you lots of opportunities to try different playing styles, correct mistakes and not limit you to a single major battle, single hero or single town. And most of all they are completely unknow to both sides, which is what i like the most in a map: i don't wan't to know it
But as ironmhl said its hard to find people who will play a map they never seen. I have met people like that in TOH unfortunately not enough and the potential for abuse in such setup is great  But all in all i would say that a custom made map unknown by both sides is the best map for me
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"What is life? Work followed by television."

  "1985" Anthony Burgess

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Jex
Jex


Known Hero
posted April 05, 2001 11:13 AM

i need to learn how to speed read....

Hey all! I haveta say that i like playing hourglass2 and BM and those toh maps. Sure maybe i do have it down to a science... Whatever thats not what this post is about.
I just joined a new tournment that plays random maps with a twist, the maps have been editted for fair starts and portal access. I made one tonite for the Old One(he is running the tourney) Being a map editor I got him a map that i would enjoy playing. In order words: I took out some of the game winning relics(spell binder hat, tome of air,etc); removed dim door/fly from the map; I gave them good spells in both their guilds; gave em same number of utopias in their areas; took out the grail and cartos; gave em mines. Anyways I had a map that I wanted to play, unfortunaly i had seen it I dont know if when he makes maps for me he does this much, but he does some stuff. So if you like the random maps but hate the restarts check out
http://go.to/heroes-encounters
or
http://www.tymeria.com/ another similar tournment ran by his son.
One thing about these tournments are that you haveta use emails to set up games.

Just another wannabe that somehow slipped into the higher ranks

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DSTG
DSTG


Hired Hero
posted April 05, 2001 03:14 PM

Me too

Maxym my eyes really hurt after that one  I like the idea of editing random maps to make them fair.  Looks like that might be a great ulternitive
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Maxym
Maxym


Known Hero
posted April 05, 2001 05:42 PM

The Tome of ....

Sorry guys I didn't realize i wrote such a book
But it has been on my mind lately as some of you know already
____________
"What is life? Work followed by television."

  "1985" Anthony Burgess

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Greiger
Greiger

Tavern Dweller
posted April 06, 2001 01:06 AM

What makes a map unbalanced?

Editting random maps may be able to make things them more balanced, but if you start down that road.  Then you need to answer the question of what makes a map unbalanced?  So that you can take those things out, and it is not that easy
a question to answer.

In some cases the answer is rather obvious, (i.e. the cart
on random maps is almost always unbalancing).  However in other cases it can be differcult to determine.  For instance editing in mines, I would consider this to be unbalancing.  Some of the towns have the strength that they don't require many resources and if you edit the maps to include one of each type of mine, you are limiting the advantage of that town type and thus unbalancing the map.

Just one example, I'm sure if you think about it you can come up with more tough calls about balancing the map.  Also what is unbalancing in a map changes from game to game and strategy to strategy so do you edit for just one strategy or all strategies.  One strategy seems unfair to those who want to use that strategy, and all strategies can't be done since you don't know what people are going to come up with.

I think editting the random maps, well sounding good at first glance.  Doesn't really supply much of an answer.
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Maxym
Maxym


Known Hero
posted April 07, 2001 12:37 AM

Exactly!!!

that's what i was thinking too after readinf Jex's post. he edited the map for fairness, getting rid of "bad" spells. This was  high powered magic cuser can build his guilds in certainty that he will get good spells. Sure both sides will get them but the might hero will be disadvanatged.

But i think having a lot of map editors, all without  constraints on how to edit map, and not putting in map info who edited the map should solve this problem. people wil  have different styles of editing and therefore you will never know if ur map was edited but a "good" spells only guy or balance the relics guy, or creature dwelling equalizer
____________
"What is life? Work followed by television."

  "1985" Anthony Burgess

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ironmlh
ironmlh


Known Hero
posted April 10, 2001 04:56 PM

Crossroads Maps

I am not a fan of Closed maps, but i do find the Crossroads maps quite fun.  Something about the layout of the maps that i find entertaining.

ironmlh

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