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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: The Mistakes of Der Führer?
Thread: The Mistakes of Der Führer? This thread is 4 pages long: 1 2 3 4 · NEXT»
terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
posted April 03, 2003 11:52 AM
Edited By: terje_the_mad_wizard on 3 Apr 2003

The Mistakes of Der Führer?

On many of the threads I've read in this forum, the mistakes of a certain Hitler, first name Adolf, with the fancy title Führer, comes up.

And then we have it going.

Some claim that his biggest mistake was to attack the Soviet Union at such an early stage, and to fight battles at all fronts.
Or that he shouldn't have taken so much control over the Russian campaign, also known as Operation Barbarossa.

My own opinion on this particular thing, is that his and the Nazi Party's biggest mistake, was to kill all the jews, gypsies, commies, and such.
Not only did this take a lot of resources, that could have been useful in the war effort, but it also created a hateful atmosphere against his regime. I mean, besides the twisted ones who claim that Holocaust didn't happen at all, who doesn't think that Nazi Germany was one of the most evil regimes of all time?

So, what do you think? Russia, Holocaust, or perhaps something completely different?
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privatehudson
privatehudson


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posted April 03, 2003 11:08 PM

His stubborn idiotic morality that got in the way of his war effort. For example:

The attitude towards women: Speer (the industrial genius behind the production of german arms) told hitler that he could put 3 million men into the army if hitler would just let women produce munitions. Hitler ranted about not loosing sight of why they were fighting the war to fight it.....

The attitude towards Slavic people: Hitler could have armed and used some 1 or 2 million russian minority peoples fighting alongside his troops willingly. Instead he slaughtered them, abused them and finally when it was all going wrong raised small numbers of them who proved unreliable as they'd seen hitler's regime for what it was by then.

In short, his personal morals really took apart the german war effort. Had he bothered to do either of the above, he could still have won WWII or held the allies at bay from german soil.
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IYY
IYY


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REDACTED
posted April 07, 2003 04:00 AM

I think that attacking Russia was his biggest mistake, as they were the major force that destroyed him. The very least he could do to defeat them was to go defensive instead of attacking that huge country. Of course the killing of minority groups was a major factor, but we must remember that the world was very ignorant on this subject and didn't seem to believe in it.
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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 07, 2003 04:37 AM

what you seem not to understand is that this mass killing of jews and other people is was brought germany together.

Ahead of WWII germany was a nation in shame since they failure in the first world war. And Hitler found a scapegoat for this.

Hitler blamed the jews and other people who wasnt "pure" in his mind.

And as some of you might know ppl without selfesteem is looking for people who has something in common with them, something that could unite them. Being a part of a group is a way better feeling than being on your own.

And this is how i think most germans felt at that time, they felt alone. They felt ashamed and they were without selfesteem.

Hitler did take advantage of this, and in his political party they made every german feel welcomed. The germans became a part of something, and they also found a scapegoat for all past problems.

This united germany, and by start mobilsing an army he also found jobs for a nation who had sky high unemployment rate.

So basically Hitler made them feel united and he brought them work. People now wonder how all these germans got along with Hitler ideas, well to the germans he was their saviour. A man who were taking germany out of the misery.

He fulfilled his promises and earned the germans trust. He had their full backing, so when he started to order the deaths of minority groups in germany...who do you think objected?


Adolf Hitler was a man with an ideology, an ideology that meant that the people that were "pure" is in mind where the only ones that deserved to live.

This ideology was what drove Hitler forward with his plans, unfortunately Hitlers knowledge in warfare wasnt the best...or rather his ideology prevented him from "making more friends" and getting more allies.

Hitlers one really big strength was his leadership, he knew exactly how to get his wishes through and to get ppls trust and support.

Hitler was probably one of the humans who had the greatest leadership, unfortunately his ideas was probably the worst.

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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posted April 22, 2003 11:53 AM

Well, you're right that the anti semite thing was what actually brought Germany together, but they could easily enough have blamed someone else, like the.. well, someone not powerful enough to wipe out the Wehrmacht in a day.

(actually, i thought about this when i was making this thread, but i discarded(?) it, since it kinda ruined my arguments...)
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bort
bort


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Discarded foreskin of morality
posted April 22, 2003 02:33 PM

Quote:
well, someone not powerful enough to wipe out the Wehrmacht in a day.



Was there anybody powerful enough to wipe out the Wehrmacht in a day?  (I mean, you could take the combined modern US & EU armies, throw in the Russian and Chinese forces for good measure, send them 60 years back in time and it would still take, well, at least 25 hours... (assuming no use of nukes)).

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privatehudson
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posted April 22, 2003 11:44 PM

Quote:
what you seem not to understand is that this mass killing of jews and other people is was brought germany together.



Uhmmmmmmmmm not really, the mass persecution maybe, but people did not openly know exactly what went on in the ghettos and camps. Whatever anyone suspected, the truth would have been much worse. Most germans seemed to have little trouble following hitler's logic about persecution, but I doubt most of them would have followed it to genocide. Dictatorships are not the kind of places where you run round asking awkward questions though, you just do what you are told most of the time in fear of a reprisal.

Quote:
He fulfilled his promises and earned the germans trust. He had their full backing, so when he started to order the deaths of minority groups in germany...who do you think objected?



Some did, students and army officers etc. There was something of a movement in the war against hitler, both civilian and millitary towards bringing him out of power. I would imagine though that far from objecting, most did not either exactly know or really want to know about the killings done in their name.

It parallels the genocide against the native americans in many ways. People wouldn't care exactly HOW they were removed from the land or why they died in their millions, they just wanted them gone. The details didn't usually concern them.


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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 23, 2003 12:08 AM

hmmm... we had a jew who had been in a nazicamp at our school who held a class at one time.

And according to him people did know alot about what happend at ghettos and camps, but as stated in my previous post there were alot of reasons why people didnt do anything about it.

And no one did object as in the word "object" to Hitler, off course there were small minorities of people that were against it. But did they say anything about it? no.

Mostly because of fear for reprecussions and they didnt know who to trust, telling the "wrong" person that Hitler was a jackass wouldnt be a very smart thing to do. And people knew this.

And you are more than welcomed to quote me for discussions PH, but please take the whole part then and dont disect it. Things gets taken out of the big picture, like the first quote about the mass killing... it makes much more sense if you read it all and then respond to it all.

thnx

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Khayman
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posted April 23, 2003 02:42 AM

Hitler's Mistakes

Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason that Hitler attacked Russia was to secure their oil fields and oil reserves in order to fuel the German war machine.  Instead of sticking to this primary objective, he decided that he wanted the Germany army to push further into Russian territory and actually secure the major cities (leningrad and Stalingrad, I believe) disregarding the effects of the severe weather and cold the troops were going to be facing during that season of the year.

Also, I believe another mistake Hitler made was during the defense of the Allied landing at Normandy.  The Germans pretty much knew when and where the Allies were coming, and Rommel was overseeing the fortification of the defensive positions.  Rommel wanted to put everything forward to meet the Allied invasion head-on, but Hitler was swayed by his advisors back in the rear to have Rommel keep a large portion of their military assets in reserve just in case they had to be relocated somewhere else.  As always, Hitler had the final say and forced Rommel to leave many assets out of the intitial defensive positions.  As we know, the Allied casualties were many due to the preparedness of the German defensive; however, the landing may not have been nearly as successful if Germany had concentrated its full military resources on the initial defensive.

This is a very good topic.  Perhaps you military historians can expand on this a little more.  My memory is hazy at best.
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privatehudson
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posted April 23, 2003 03:33 AM

SS: Firstly I'll quote what I like You don't own the discussion I find it easier to take things part by part and discuss each point seperately, makes for easier reading. You can like that or not *shrugs* I don't care frankly

You see I did read the rest, I was merely offering another slant or reason for the german reaction to Hitler. You do have some valid points in that they needed to recover from their shame at loosing WWI and they did support Hitler for his reviving of germany, but I don't think you can stretch it to supporting the actions of the camps.

Quote:
And according to him people did know alot about what happend at ghettos and camps, but as stated in my previous post there were alot of reasons why people didnt do anything about it.



Well I tend to disagree, especially since if you'll forgive the term that speaker may be a little biased. There is some grounds for saying that civilians in occupied areas helped the germans to round up jews from ghettos etc, but whether they knew exactly what for is doubtful. Personally most of the testimony I've read from officers and soldiers of the Wermacht says that most of them had no idea what was going on at home, all they knew was the actions of the SS at the front in rounding up russians/slavs/jews etc from Russia and other places. Civilians I think, especially those living in the areas around a camp probably had a damn good idea of what was happening, but again their ability to affect such things was all but non-existent.

Quote:
And no one did object as in the word "object" to Hitler, off course there were small minorities of people that were against it. But did they say anything about it? no.



Suprisingly they did, during WWII a large underground group of german students published a newspaper for some years in Berlin before being caught and put on a show trial whereupon they were executed. We also know little about how many people in Germany DID speak out and try and stop the events given the nature of a dictatorship. It's also not quite that simple as the English through Ultra knew of the Holocaust almost from it's disgusting beginings, but we never spoke out either for our own fears of the germans changing the codes.

The Wermacht made at least one concerted attempt to kill him, and there were many attempts on his life. The problem in killing Hitler would be that the army generally was away from germany in other countries leaving internal german security to the likes of the local police and the SS (and the police were under SS control...). Of all the leaders of the Reich likely to seize power in the wake of Hitler, Himmler seems the most likely with his party standing and private army in the elite SS. Basically any attempt to kill hitler by the army would have to go hand in hand with a coup against the SS and Himmler which is why it's more complicated than simply speaking out or killing Hitler. And as for if Himmler took power? Himmler was cold and calculating, with the "ability" to organise the holocaust, but he was also sensible as such, never interfering in millitary matters (well he did once, but only on hitlers insistence at the end of the war) and not prone to maniaical outbursts leading to insane orders. It was actually something of a problem for the allies as to whether hitler surviving the plot of 1944 was good or bad!

Quote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the reason that Hitler attacked Russia was to secure their oil fields and oil reserves in order to fuel the German war machine. Instead of sticking to this primary objective, he decided that he wanted the Germany army to push further into Russian territory and actually secure the major cities (leningrad and Stalingrad, I believe) disregarding the effects of the severe weather and cold the troops were going to be facing during that season of the year.



I won't correct you then There is some argument for saying though that had he given rommel the backing in Africa to drive the british from egypt, Rommel could have driven through the middle east, splitting the empire in two and seizing the reserves there. From there any troops could theoretically push through into russia (indeed the very area of the southern russian oil fields) from the south.

Quote:
Also, I believe another mistake Hitler made was during the defense of the Allied landing at Normandy.


Interesting point. Hitler basically listened to two commanders on this, Rommel who headed the Army group in the north of France and Rundstedt who headed the entire western army. Rommel said put the tanks on the beach, Rundstedt said further back, miles away but on call. Hitler chose Rundstedt's advice, had he chosen Rommel's, it may have worked better, but then again if his tanks were near the beacheads in bright daylight they'd have been just as likely massacred by the roving allied fighter bombers. That's what happened soon afer D-day to the Panzer Lehr Division when it moved through daytime to the front, so it would have probably happened on D-day also. Runstedt's idea did have some logical background to it.

Quote:
The Germans pretty much knew when and where the Allies were coming, and Rommel was overseeing the fortification of the defensive positions.


Uhmmmmmmmmm not really, they thought the landings were due in Picardy (calais area) and not the Normandy region, mostly due to it being the shortest route and allied attempts to persuade them so. They also had figured that the allies wouldn't come around the 6th as later in June terrible weather was due (indeed it wrecked the artificial harbours the allies built). Most of the officers in the army group were on leave or attending war-games in Rennes!

Quote:
As we know, the Allied casualties were many due to the preparedness of the German defensive; however, the landing may not have been nearly as successful if Germany had concentrated its full military resources on the initial defensive.



Depends, the allies learnt much from their assault (read massacre) at Dieppe in 1942, namely

A) DON'T attack fortified towns
B) Infantry can be pinned down too easily by pillboxes and stopped by barbed wire, bring specialist tanks to solve this, they're a damn sight harder to stop!
C) Co-ordinate the landings properly and time them right
D) Use airborne troops more than commandos

The casualties incurred on d-day mostly came from those on Omaha, where the americans had refused the specialist vehicles the british had built in the wake of Dieppe (mentioned in B) and tried the same thing we did at dieppe, ie use infantry engineers, the result was no different really. Utah (the other american beach) would have been exactly the same, but the lead landing craft drifted 2 miles away from their beach and landed on the wrong spot! The commanders quickly figured that if the 1st wave was there, the rest might as well follow. Utah's original beach was similar to Omaha's and heavily defended, the one landed on was not. Had they hit the right beach another Omaha style massacre seemed likely, and it would be possible that the americans may have considered calling the whole thing off! Co-incidently, the british and Canadians did use those vehicles, and despite attacking fortified houses and pillboxes we fared much better through the use of them.

In comparison the germans weren't really prepared for the landings, airborne troops had a relatively easy time in reaching their objectives and the troops stationed at the beaches were of poorer quality than nearby ones that could have been brought up had they known in advance. An example being the German 352nd Infantry Division, veterans of Russia, and the SOLE german infantry formation on the western front considered capable of offensive operations. They were lying just behind the normandy beachead.
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Khayman
Khayman


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posted April 23, 2003 05:23 AM

Private Hudson - Gotta Let You Know This

Although sometimes I disagree with your opinions, I really gain a lot of insight from your factual and historical knowledge.  As always, thanks for the good info.  I truly enjoy your posts.  Stay safe and stay cool.
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tonyjt2471
tonyjt2471


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posted April 23, 2003 10:52 AM

True on PH

He is very well-informed person.....more so than anyone else here I would say. (Yeah, even me, lol!)

That still doesnt make it alright to use your knowledge to spin the facts, baby.

Gotta run, PH will be here to mow me down any sec, adios all!
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grunancross
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posted April 23, 2003 10:57 AM

Well he was a fool for trying to take out the sov's and a fool for thinking he'd do it.  I think that was his biggest mistake.
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tonyjt2471
tonyjt2471


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posted April 23, 2003 11:07 AM

Hitler's Mistake...

...not counting the U.S. to come into the war so early.  He had plans with his "Horton wing" and other nuclear weapons  transportation systems on the table, but they wouldnt have been ready until at the earliest, 1946.  He shouldve excercised greater diplomatic ties with Japan to assure this.  MANY people in the U.S. were at this time against joining the war in Europe, but after Pearl Harbor, the **** hit the fan.

He believed he could have delivered a nuclear weapon to NYC and subdue America and keep the US at bay.  Bad idea anyways, would have made things worse for him (Pearl Harbor, 9/11 for examples).

While I agree attacking the Soviets so early may have been a strategic mistake, but only so because he had to fight on the western front against the allies, also.  At the time, the Soviets would have been ill-prepared for a full-on German assault.

All the symantecs of the other points that could be pointed out wouldn't equal up to this.  If Hitler were alive today he would tell us that I'm sure.
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tonyjt2471
tonyjt2471


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posted April 23, 2003 11:12 AM

Oh, one thing PH....

...your remark about the U.S. "calling off the whole thing" if more casualties would have happened on D-Day was quite ludicrous.

Killing (more) Americans to make them stop fighting is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.
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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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Disciple of Herodotus
posted April 23, 2003 11:49 AM

Quote:
Was there anybody powerful enough to wipe out the Wehrmacht in a day? (I mean, you could take the combined modern US & EU armies, throw in the Russian and Chinese forces for good measure, send them 60 years back in time and it would still take, well, at least 25 hours... (assuming no use of nukes)).


You get my point. I just exaggregated it a little.

(Compliments to PH for the deep background info, BTW. always fun to learn new stuff.)

Quote:
Killing (more) Americans to make them stop fighting is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline.


Well, not if you kill enough of them. The allies realized that if you kill enough civilians, the morale of your enemy's army will be very much lower, esp. when they can do nothing about it (the americans can; just think about Afghenistan). So, the allies, mainly the brits, but also the americans, bomed Dresden and Hamburg (hope this is the correct cities, please correct me if I'm wrong) with the nice mix of highly explosive bombs and firebombs. I belive they killed some 500 000-800 000 german civilians this way. Pluss, they had shown that they were willing to sacrifice innocent civilians to win the war, which in turn made the germans start bomb London (alltough they'd probably done that sooner or later anyway...).

(This could very well be incorrect, since it's some years since I heard it...)
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tonyjt2471
tonyjt2471


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posted April 23, 2003 12:00 PM

Terd_the_ma....

...you should pick up a history book. (Preferably one that has factual information.)

And that is why I said AMERICANS....killing Americans make Americans mad, even if they are civilians...so bad analogy on your part (if you dont believe me I left a good example, 9/11 ring a bell?)

And what in the **** are you talking about on Afghanistan??  Do you know what country has spent more money on developing weapons for the sole purpose of minimizing civilian casualties???? I'll give you a hint, its more than any other country in the world (meanwhile its "cool" if Syria and other have weapons with nothing more than the sole purpose of killing civilians?)

C'mon, be at least logical if you want to post some America bashing stuff here.

How about how we didnt find any WMD in Iraq? (Oh, wait we already did, dang....)

How about how the war is going to kill a massive amount of civilians? (Oooops, my bad, didnt do that either....hmmm)

Gotta be something, right?

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terje_the_ma...
terje_the_mad_wizard


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posted April 23, 2003 01:00 PM

You'd have to be pretty touchy to see that little comment as US-bashing (which i'm usually into, but not this time though...)

Didn't learn this in a book, either, but from a programme i saw on the discovery channel...

Don't think I expressed myself clearly enough, since you didn't understand me. What I said, is that bombing Iraq or Afghanistan isn't quite the same as facing the Reich on the peak of their power. I don't say the nazis would win, but (GOD THIS IS SO DAMNED HYPOTHETIC THAT I'M NOT SURE WHY I EVEN BOTHER!!!!!) that it would be harder defeating them than the semi-militia of Afghanistan.

The rest of your post, I simply choose not to bother answering to, since it's so clearly off-topic.

To all others who read this thread, please don't turn it into an US-bashing one. That 'discussion' have ruined so many great threads (like Kuma's 'Take back the foo's...).

And to all americans out there: That someone disagrees with your politicians, doesn't mean that they hate you.

Now, back to the topic!

You could actually say that the entire war was a mistake, or launched too early at best, since Hitler probably could have ruled in 'peace' for a few decades while building his army, if not for his urge to win his countrymen some 'lebensraum.'

BTW, tonyjt2471, my name is spelled TERJE ;-)
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privatehudson
privatehudson


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posted April 23, 2003 01:35 PM

Quote:
Although sometimes I disagree with your opinions, I really gain a lot of insight from your factual and historical knowledge. As always, thanks for the good info. I truly enjoy your posts. Stay safe and stay cool.



It's ok, WWII is something of my specialised subject

Quote:
Oh, one thing PH....

...your remark about the U.S. "calling off the whole thing" if more casualties would have happened on D-Day was quite ludicrous.

Killing (more) Americans to make them stop fighting is like trying to put out a fire with gasoline


You misunderstand me, I meant that if 2 of the 5 allied beaches, and all of the american ones were stalled for 7 hours with heavy casualties it may have been deemed better to withdraw to fight another day on another front. I didn't mean call off the war, just the invasion on that day. Eisenhower had a speech readied for exactly that occaision. Eisenhower would have least have considered it, the American beaches were vital for the invasion, consisting of the western flank of the army and those closest to a channel port (cherbourg) had they both been bloodbaths the thought would have at least crossed any commanders mind, american or not.

Quote:
To all others who read this thread, please don't turn it into an US-bashing one. That 'discussion' have ruined so many great threads (like Kuma's 'Take back the foo's...).



Exactly, this is about hitler and the allies and WWII, if the american's made mistakes they should be pointed out and not covered up, just as much as if the british, germans or canadians did.

Quote:
You could actually say that the entire war was a mistake, or launched too early at best, since Hitler probably could have ruled in 'peace' for a few decades while building his army, if not for his urge to win his countrymen some 'lebensraum.'


Indeed, maybe his greatest mistake was in pushing Chamberlin and the French leader (who's name escapes me) too far by invading poland.

Quote:
So, the allies, mainly the brits, but also the americans, bomed Dresden and Hamburg (hope this is the correct cities, please correct me if I'm wrong) with the nice mix of highly explosive bombs and firebombs. I belive they killed some 500 000-800 000 german civilians this way. Pluss, they had shown that they were willing to sacrifice innocent civilians to win the war, which in turn made the germans start bomb London (alltough they'd probably done that sooner or later anyway...).


Indeed, the methods we decry such as the german Blitz and their u-boat attacks we ourselves turned on them. Dresden and Hamburg were flattened by the british, Tokyo was fire-bombed by the americans (killing more than the combined atom bombs). American raids tended towards more accuracy and less carpet bombing as such given they were in daylight.

Quote:
That still doesnt make it alright to use your knowledge to spin the facts, baby.



I don't, I'm just saying some facts followed by interpretations many historians and writers have come to upon reading them facts.
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tonyjt2471
tonyjt2471


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posted April 23, 2003 01:43 PM

LOL PH

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That still doesnt make it alright to use your knowledge to spin the facts, baby.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I don't, I'm just saying some facts followed by interpretations many historians and writers have come to upon reading them facts.



Hope youre not reffering to yourself as a historian
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