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| Thread: The Mistakes of Der Führer? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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privatehudson
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posted April 23, 2003 01:49 PM |
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Uhmmmmmmm no, I was referring to the fact that I've read a few dozen books on the normandy campaign, most of which suggest that if Utah had been the same as omaha a serious consideration would have been given to withdrawl from the beaches.
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Nidhgrin
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posted April 23, 2003 02:04 PM |
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How about how we didnt find any WMD in Iraq? (Oh, wait we already did, dang....)
There is NO (unfalsified) evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq! Please provide us with a written source of information you based this statement on because I have yet to see this proven!! There weren't any WMD in Iraq before the war, if there have been any earlier, there indeed is a good possibility that those are located in Syria now... I'm not saying Syria should be bombed flat here though, hell no. There are other unstable countries in the region that have (much much more likely even) WMD in their possession!
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How about how the war is going to kill a massive amount of civilians? (Oooops, my bad, didnt do that either....hmmm)
Massive amounts of civilian lives HAVE been lost in Iraq!! Additionally, in the aftermath of the war, with the destruction of vital infrastructure and such, many hundreds more will die! The situation in several cities is similar or worse than in disaster areas in the third world with women dying when giving birth to a child because the necessary tools/medicines/people are not present, people dying of dehydration and children starving in the streets. 'Low casualty' statements are untrue to say the least, my goodness how can people talk about this like there's been a minor traffic accident when hundreds of people are dead or still dying?
Wars are games played by leaders of community groups or nations, unfortunately they make the decisions but the people on the street are the ones who have to suffer dearly for that. I've always been disgusted by the deceptiveness and lies told by war propaganda, it is never a good thing when the public opinion is influenced by government officials and are forced to twist or distort the thruth or to deliberately not release certain images or stories, but this beats anything! I invite you and all others who are convinced of the thruth behind the things you mentioned above to open your minds. Read papers from abroad, look to newchannels from other countries... More and more I'm beginning to get the impression that you guys are being brainwashed over there. Be careful not to let this happen! You are very keen on pulling Hitler into discussions but keep in mind that propaganda was one of the key pillars of the nazi regime. It effectively made horrible things look right to the masses, and it distorted the thruth in many ways. Propaganda is a powerful tool and the more strings all the different media have with politics the more dangerous this becomes. Not everything you hear or read may be the thruth... It is admirable that you stand up for what you believe in. I have a lot of respect for people who dare to speak up, even when they see lots of others claim things opposite to their beliefs. We should not be sheep in the flock... everyone's opinion counts! But make sure your sources are reliable. Wouldn't you be horrified when you found out you had been fighting for the wrong reasons or with false information, that you had been the tool of people who deliberately twisted the thruth to get people to fight on their side... Be careful for misinformation, I think you would be surprised when you'd frequent outland sources of information more frequently 
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tonyjt2471
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posted April 23, 2003 02:22 PM |
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OK Nihdrigin
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030423/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_scientists
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=68&e=2&cid=68&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert
Those links should help with the WMD question.
Now, as for casualties (civilian) in the war, yes, we know there were some (duh, its war), but it was made to be as small as we possibly could make it.....follow me here:
1) Bush gives 48 hour ultamatim to Saddam (warning of war)
2) US deploys 95% GPS and Laser guided munitions costing us billions of dollars compared to conventional weapons
3) Damage to civilian infrastructure kept to bare minimum, even leaving the power plants intact during war and waiting a couple weeks to take out the state-run media station!
4) Where are all the dead bodies and graves?????
Now, if you can follow this, this is what an ex-patriot of Iraq had to say about war and Saddam; "Yes, there is a possibility that some civilians will die in a war, BUT it is a given that every day innocents will die while Saddam is in power!" (And that was from an Iraqi defector!)
Nickalodeon diplomacy does not work with Tyrants. Only force.
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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 23, 2003 09:15 PM |
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PH good reply.
What i dont really agree with is the off topic part 
true, i dont own the discussion. But atleast here its like an unwritten rule that you reply to the whole points people make, thats a part of good behaviour here
Basically because taking things out of its context often makes things seem out of place. And therefor easily gets twisted to something else.
But as you said, you argue like you want too. Just think its a shame that someone who is as good with words as yourself takes his discussion level down like this.
As for the person coming to teach us, sure he was biased. Frankly i think its impossible not to be when having a history like he had
But the "people" i was referring to wasnt the soldiers, it was the civilians.
As for the student thingy, you are correct. It struck me when i read your post that i have learned something similiar in the past and they got caught and executed.
And if im not mistaken there were also a try with a bomb to kill Hitler, which obviously didnt succeed though
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privatehudson
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posted April 23, 2003 11:13 PM |
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What i dont really agree with is the off topic part
true, i dont own the discussion. But atleast here its like an unwritten rule that you reply to the whole points people make, thats a part of good behaviour here
Basically because taking things out of its context often makes things seem out of place. And therefor easily gets twisted to something else.
*shrugs* It's just my way, no-one has specifically come forward until you to mention a problem with it. I find it better in some ways as it saves space. Instead of quoting the entire (and sometimes long) posts here I just pick the parts I agree with or have a point to make about. If I don't have a point about part of your argument I don't really see the sense in quoting that part. Sure it can sometimes be taken out of context, but then again my answer would look exactly the same anyway, just in one block rather than seperated for ease of my reading. I may not quote all of the posts, but I do READ all of them, just either don't disagree, or don't find them relevant depending on what it is. I don't see how taking only what I want to take up as an issue makes me somehow lowering the tone of my comments, that's for you to choose I guess. You do what you want, I'll do what I want Until the entire board complains about it I doubt I'll change
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As for the person coming to teach us, sure he was biased. Frankly i think its impossible not to be when having a history like he had
Sure, I wasn't being critical of him specifically, but all sides of the story is best rather than the assumption from one side. It may well have been his impression that civilians in places like Poland where the majority of the Ghettos were knew and cared little for the actions there, but the camps are slightly different issues becuase of their more secluded and secretive nature that meant all but the nearby population and those working there would have been in the dark as such. Knowing about their location/existence and knowing/wanting to know/finding out what happened there is entirely another matter, for all outside populations knew they were holding camps for transportation out of the Reich into neutral countries.
Civilians in Authority may have known what was happening if they were either high ranking or in charge of those areas containing camps. As for the average civilian though, there's dozens of places in my country like army camps, Air force bases etc that I know nothing about their activities, I know they exist, but the events taking place there? Not a clue to be honest, and even in a democracy, it's unlikely I'd ever find out. The same would probably have been true for the germans under Hitler, suspicion (after all thousands going in, not many going out etc), but somehow I doubt too many "people on the street" could actually say they knew for sure what occured.
Most german civilians post WWII living away from the camps had to be either taken to the camps to clear the dead away, or shown footage of the camps before they would believe it could have been done in their name, there was a massive "De-Nazification" process carried out by the allies post WWII for the army and the civilians, which alone would indicate doubt that the masses knew exactly what occured.
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As for the student thingy, you are correct. It struck me when i read your post that i have learned something similiar in the past and they got caught and executed.
Given time I could dig the info out I guess. It's in an overall WWII history book my Father owns somewhere in the house.
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And if im not mistaken there were also a try with a bomb to kill Hitler, which obviously didnt succeed though
That would be the part where I mentioned about the army plot of 1944 by Count Von Stauffenberg (apologies if that's spelt wrong). I had a link somewhere to the whole thing, I might dig it up one day. Most interesting.
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tonyjt2471
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posted April 24, 2003 01:39 AM |
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PH
youre off topic again.
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privatehudson
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posted April 24, 2003 01:49 AM |
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I'm always off topic
Besides it's a good debate right? As long as it's remotely linked (I mentioned hitler and germany didn't I?) it's not too bad 
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Nidhgrin
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posted April 24, 2003 02:07 AM |
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=540&e=2&u=/ap/20030423/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_scientists
This is not evidence hehe  I copied and pasted the following directly from the text, and it clearly shows there is no such thing as hard evidence:
So far, U.S. forces haven't found any conclusive evidence that Iraq has weapons it was banned from possessing after the 1991 Gulf War (news - web sites). Officials hope scientists and other Iraqis will feel free to provide information now that the regime is gone. U.S. officials are questioning several top Iraqi officials who were involved in former weapons programs and the Pentagon (news - web sites) has offered rewards of up to $200,000 for information on weapons of mass destruction.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=68&e=2&cid=68&u=/nyt/20030421/ts_nyt/illicit_arms_kept_till_eve_of_war__an_iraqi_scientist_is_said_to_assert
Again no hard evidence... I personally believe parts of what is being told about weapons transports to Syria in the text, but even that is not proved yet. As with Iraq, I am hesitant to formulate an opinion until facts prove that things truly are as they are suggested by the media.
One short question perhaps. Don't you think if there would have been substantial amounts of WMD in Iraq, that at least traces of them should have been discovered by the high tech apparature used by the inspectors and now by the US military? Doesn't this let to believe that there haven't been WMD in Iraq for a long time? Probably not for over ten years, or at least not in dangerous amounts...
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Now, as for casualties (civilian) in the war, yes, we know there were some (duh, its war), but it was made to be as small as we possibly could make it.....follow me here:
Who can stand up and say the death of thousands of civilians is justified? It saddens me deeply that people can close their eyes for this tragedy. Imagine you had lived in Iraq... These people could have been your wife or your brother, your mother or your best friend, your own child... Perhaps you have been denied access to information about the situation in Iraq atm, here are some links if you're interested. I can post some more if you'd wish.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2955829.stm
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/04/08/1049567687745.html
http://www.iraqbodycount.net/bodycount.htm
http://www.hrw.org/press/2003/04/us040103.htm
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tonyjt2471
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posted April 24, 2003 03:55 AM |
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Now Nihdrigin
How is this related to the mistakes of Adolf Hitler.
And by the way, if you are a civilian and you pick up a gun to fight, you are now an "unlawful combatant". In other words, you are fair game in the rules of war, only the Geneva convention does not apply to your status. So, if you want to call these people "innocent civilians", then go ahead, I guess.
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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 24, 2003 04:46 AM |
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TonyJT, how are your last 2 posts related to hitler?
And PH´s posts are on topic since they discuss the climate in germany at that time and the support he had from his own people. And if you had followed this debate instead of toss at everyone who doesnt use the words "hitler mistake" frequently you would know that this discussion between myself and PH came from that the use of nazi camps were up to debate
hmmm PH interesting paralels between the nazi camps and your military bases. But IMO there must have been a great difference since these ghettos of jews were more or less "cleaned up". People had to go marked with a star so people would recognize that they were jewish. I dont think the civilians had any problems at all seeing that the jews were mistreated and that many of them suddenly "disappeared". And when so many people like that just "disappears" not even the most naive of persons doesnt have a clue about whats going on. And besides the word usually travels far and fast, and even jews knew what happend in those camps before they were taken there.
So im very confident that most german civilians knew what was going on, even if someone of them didnt want to see it and may have tried to close their eyes on that issue.
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privatehudson
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posted April 24, 2003 10:51 AM |
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But that's the point, they all knew something was going on, but only those in direct contact with the camps would have known or been suspicious as to exactly what. This is not a time when average people travelled much beyond their own towns and cities to have known these things, and people were more than willing to accept that they were simply being "dealt with". Those that didn't care could tell themselves this meant deportation. Those that did would have suspected internment or murder, but their ability to change the whole issue was limited in the climate of the time.
Whether they knew and what they knew though doesn't really mean they permitted such events as such. The climate of the country did not allow the civilians to fight the system or permit actions taken by the state. Even had Hitler been more open as to his actions it's unlikely that anybody in germany outside the army could have done anything about the issue anyway. The time for the germans to stop hitler had gone long before they knew or suspected his true aims for the Jewish population. Most of them were no more than unwilling spectators at the ruin of their own country and it's reputation with an inability to do anything about it.
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terje_the_ma...
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posted April 24, 2003 12:03 PM |
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So im very confident that most german civilians knew what was going on, even if someone of them didnt want to see it and may have tried to close their eyes on that issue.
Yeah, this is true. I was in Poland a few weeks ago, and visited the camps Auschwitz I, Auschwitz II Birkenau and later Sachsenhausen in Germany.
When we were there, our guide (who was a local polish man) told us that when the war was over, his mother had been asked 'But didn't you know what went on inside those walls?' (they had lived right nextdoor to Auschwitz I), and his mother had replied 'No.' But he said he could clearly remember that once, during the war, a stench had suddenly filled their kitchen, and his mother had commented 'They are burning some jews again today.'
To, as you see, almost everyone knew.
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privatehudson
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posted April 24, 2003 01:25 PM |
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Yes but those are the people living RIGHT next to the camps, not the millions who lived and worked nowhere near them.
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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 24, 2003 05:50 PM |
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hmmm sorry PH but you struck me as very naive now
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The time for the germans to stop hitler had gone long before they knew or suspected his true aims for the Jewish population. Most of them were no more than unwilling spectators at the ruin of their own country and it's reputation with an inability to do anything about it.
Here germany wasnt to far away to take over half of europe and basically had the whole world at their feet. Why would the germans all of a sudden wanna stop this?
I think you really underestimate the power of leadership here.
Hitler would never ever have gotten that far if it wasnt for the fact that he brought germany together. He united the people of germany, and together they became a strong force.
Then how Hitler got the nation to stay behind him is another issue...by force? yes. by intimidating people? yes. But i also think that he had most germans backing all the time until the allied forces invaded germany.
Because Germany saw Hitler as their saviour. They had been living in shame and here comes this guy called Adolf Hitler saying he could turn it all around. And as stated in my first post he did this step by step and he really had a masterplan behind his work.
He won the trust of the germans.
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Yes but those are the people living RIGHT next to the camps, not the millions who lived and worked nowhere near them.
As stated earlier i dont think anyone failed to see how the jews were mistreated. They were "marked", they didnt get to go shopping at all stores because they wasnt worthy. They could be physically abused in the middle of town by police and no one botherd.
And then off course we have the crystalnight (dunno if its right word in english, but thats how it translate into english from swedish)... jewish churches got burned down, jewish stores got robbed and destroyed.
And as i said in my previous post, the word travels very fast and far. The jews knew what was going on in camps before they got there, the polish people did. Off course the germans did it aswell. Then how they felt about that fact is another issue, but they did know.
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privatehudson
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posted April 24, 2003 06:21 PM |
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Here germany wasnt to far away to take over half of europe and basically had the whole world at their feet. Why would the germans all of a sudden wanna stop this?
I think you really underestimate the power of leadership here.
Hitler would never ever have gotten that far if it wasnt for the fact that he brought germany together. He united the people of germany, and together they became a strong force.
Then how Hitler got the nation to stay behind him is another issue...by force? yes. by intimidating people? yes. But i also think that he had most germans backing all the time until the allied forces invaded germany.
Because Germany saw Hitler as their saviour. They had been living in shame and here comes this guy called Adolf Hitler saying he could turn it all around. And as stated in my first post he did this step by step and he really had a masterplan behind his work.
He won the trust of the germans.
Excuse me? You know the feelings of the entire german population now in WWII now? He may have won their trust but he ABUSED their trust pushing it too far. I very much doubt if hitler stated specifically in his manifesto for election that his stated aim for the Jews was to wipe them out in a series of massacres and death camps anyone would have elected him in the first place, the germans aren't barbaric enough to elect someone openly stating his intentions as such.
I also contest they mostly backed him until germany was invaded. Open opposition is hard to judge, but from what I've read resistance to his designs date back long before the invasion of Germany and many people were clear by 1943/1944 that germany was being lead into a cauldron of fire that not even Hitler could get them out of. Long before the invasions of the german heartlands the murmurs of discontent were raising their head if the plots to remove him were anything to go by.
Saviour he may have been, but the germans are not stupid. When they see their country fighting all but alone against 3 then superpower nations and being pushed back everywhere, with their leader refusing to take steps towards peace, all but the staunchest Nazi's were begining to wonder long before late 1944.
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As stated earlier i dont think anyone failed to see how the jews were mistreated. They were "marked", they didnt get to go shopping at all stores because they wasnt worthy. They could be physically abused in the middle of town by police and no one botherd.
And then off course we have the crystalnight (dunno if its right word in english, but thats how it translate into english from swedish)... jewish churches got burned down, jewish stores got robbed and destroyed.
Yes but again, the leap between knowledge of this and knowledge of mass murder on a industrial scale just doesn't occur automatically! This kind of abuse has occured in Europe for centuries through the church, this was the first time people would have experienced it turning from hatred and persecution to organised anhialation.
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And as i said in my previous post, the word travels very fast and far. The jews knew what was going on in camps before they got there, the polish people did. Off course the germans did it aswell. Then how they felt about that fact is another issue, but they did know.
rumours travel very fast and very far. I never said there was no suspicion, I'm sure the rumour of the camps occured and flashed round europe quickly, but it's just not something the common person tends to believe. The allied soldiers did not believe it when they ran over the camps, it's just not logical or believeable until you either SEE it or experience it.
There's a very thin line between knowledge and suspicion. I would imagine most germans were at least suspicious, but who on earth would want to believe rumours like that about their "saviour"?
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TonyJT2471
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posted April 24, 2003 09:20 PM |
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LOL PH
You said:
I very much doubt if hitler stated specifically in his manifesto for election that his stated aim for the Jews was to wipe them out in a series of massacres and death camps anyone would have elected him in the first place, the germans aren't barbaric enough to elect someone openly stating his intentions as such.
I say:
It's a good thing, because then he probably wouldve lost the election (Get it, he wasnt elected...coup de tat)
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privatehudson
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posted April 24, 2003 11:06 PM |
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Hitler WAS elected to power actually, more than once he stood in and won seats in elections. It was his actions once his party won power that marked him out as a dictator.
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bort
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posted April 24, 2003 11:12 PM |
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I say:
It's a good thing, because then he probably wouldve lost the election (Get it, he wasnt elected...coup de tat)
Hitler was elected. He was not elected to the position of "evil dictator for life," but he was elected nonetheless. You consider this a good thing?
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Sir_Stiven
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posted April 24, 2003 11:14 PM |
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hehe PH you are taking what im writing the wrong way.
No i dont know the feelings of all germans in WW II, i havent gotten my time machine to go so far back in time yet
And its obvious you know your history well, but i dont think you understand the human mind. People has and will problably always be led by strong leaders. And strong leaders usually can get their will through, Hitler could. Hitler was a strong leader and at that time that was exactly what the germans wanted, someone who could lead them some way.
And off course Hitler didnt say "vote for me and i get you places, oh... and i will kill a jews for fun"
But he made the jews scapegoats for what had happend earlier, and step by step he took it further and further. Which at the end stopped at nazi camps.
And once it came to nazi camps the hate for jews were big, and as stated earlier no one could do anything about it then even if they wanted too.
As for the thing you said about germany vs 3 super powers... well why not? Hitler made them believe. Hitler fulfilled his other promises and he made them believe again. Just look at everything else he accomplished in germany.
Let me ask you this, if you had been going around all your life feeling worthless...ashamed... everyone seemed to look down on you... dont you think you have felt encouraged when suddenly someone said. "hey, its your fault. You are a great people, and i will make you realise that. Recent failures was not because of you, but because of other races. You are the humans like the God wanted them to be and therefor we will have the power to rule this world!"
Off course you would have started to feel better then, and Hitler was great at this. He was awesome at controlling people. Which made them believe in him and believe in themselves. Then if that person says that they can take over the world...why not? he has showed them alot of other things they never thought were possible. He had made them feel good about themselves once again.
And concerning camps, so you got
A) ghettos where all jews just disappears
B) You have crystal nite where all jew stores and churches and stuff got totally destroyed
C) People from other places saying that the jews where they are living just disappeard aswell
D) People telling you that there are camps where jews works to they die basically.
draw your own conclusions, i doubt many germans thought that all jews all of a sudden got taken away by aliens...
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Wolfman
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posted April 24, 2003 11:15 PM |
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Yes that is right PH, Tony if you want to argue about things like this you really should research the stuff you "know".
Hitler won his elections "fair and square" and he trained his troops legitamatly. For the Air Force (Luftwaffe) he built gliders for training, and for the tank drivers he put a shell on cars. I have a book with pictures of all of this.
He really thought he was going to win and take over the world (and he did come close). He documented everything, he wanted to show posterity how he did it. Kind of sick of him, huh?
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