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| Thread: HoMM4 TOH- Clans |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · NEXT» |
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 03, 2001 08:31 AM |
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HoMM4 TOH- Clans
This will remain on the TOH board for discussion through September. What is discussed here may reflect on the rules applied to clans of Homm4 TOH.
Focus of this topic is on Clans, and what types of clans and bonuses that would be interesting to have (up to 15 different clan philosophies). Now with greater knowledge of homm4, ideas are possible for clan bonuses and such. Also, potential rule changes in clans can be discussed here. Take note that unlike divisions, TOH Clans open the day homm4 TOH opens on release of homm4.
Many emails have been sent to me to discuss this, and it would be better to discuss them here.
Relevant links:
http://www.toheroes.com/heroes3/clans/clanrules.html
http://www.toheroes.com/heroes4/data/database.html
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eliogabalus
Hired Hero
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posted July 03, 2001 12:54 PM |
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One thing come to mind about clans, the map restriction.
Why restrict it to 5 chosen maps?
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted July 03, 2001 07:23 PM |
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Well I have a few thoughts on potential improvements for clans structure:
Clan wars! They need to be more organized and each war registered with the clan coordinator. To many clan wars were abused and alot of the clan war matches were not even played. There were clan war wins reported were there was only 2 matches actually played and 2 forfiets. Also had several archenemy wars reported where only 2 matches were played and they still wanted the 8 points.!!! That isnt right. I would say if you want the bonus points of a clan war then all 4 matches need to be played. No forfiets alowwed in a clan war. Have a section where the wars can be posted and progress checked on. There also needs to be deadlines on clan wars, mutually agreed upon by both leaders.
More thoughts later after there are other postes to reply on.....
Jinxer
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 03, 2001 10:41 PM |
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Clan Wars
Jinxer, you don`t understand what the problem is.
Whenever a clan would lead a clan war 1-0 or 2-0, the other clan would simply not finish the war.
As the clan leader of Oracle I negociated no less than 13 clan wars. We completed 5 of them. The other 8 I tried like crazy to get our opponents to play their games. No success. It`s too easy within the actual clan structure to avoid a loss. Oracle lost 40+ clan points that way.
If you are not allowed to forfeit players that won`t play you are going no where. You penalize the wrong guys. I don`t think that`s your idea of right and wrong and so you`ll have to think harder about your system.
On another clan issue, rules have to be set a long time before the finals start. I`ve seen the artifact usage downgrade 3 times since clan tourney started. Again penalizing the wrong guys. Those who worked hard to play clan games end up with having their bonus removed. It`s silly.
I`m witnessing that popularity dictates. Not common sense. I hope that will change in the futur.
- Frank
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted July 04, 2001 02:46 AM |
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What do you mean artifact usage downgrade 3 times? Explain.
And you proved my point exactly Frank. You did not deserve clan war points if you only played 2 games. If some of your opponenets dont play then just count the games that were played and lost as free challenge games. Just becasue there was a war started doesnt automatically guarentee that you deserve the full benefit of the clan war points.
I will agree though Frank that maybe a penalty system should be setup for those that enter into a war and not finish it. That would work since they would have to register the war with the coordinator. So they couldnt say later there was no war.  Bottom line all 4 matches need to be played to be concidered a full war. If you have an inactive member maybe it could be in the rules that you can have a 3 man war and thusly the clan war points won would be 3 instead of 4. Something like that.
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 04, 2001 04:37 AM |
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5 maps restriction
The restriction of maps was originally to keep the map editing to a minimum, since most clan situations require the map to be edited with the bonus. It really had no other value. Should there be no map limit to clans? Anyone have agreements or disagreements to this?
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 04, 2001 04:41 AM |
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partial points for half-complete clanwars
Well in case of clan wars, forefits could be counted as elimination of a true clan war, and partial point given to it instead? So if there were 2 forefits, the 4 full pointage would be reduced to 2 points.
Incentive could be given to promote complete clan wars, by giving greater point bonus to a complete clan war, and even perhaps some priviledge or bonus to the losing warring clan, as incentive to finish?
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 04, 2001 04:49 AM |
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Oracle received no clan war points they didn`t deserve and Oracle`s opponent clan didn`t lose any clan war points they had to lose for unfinished clan wars. So improvement would be needed there too.
http://pages.infinit.net/jnfrank/Oracle/record.htm
The first rule about clan artifact was: to be used by all players in all rounds.
Then it became: to be used by a single player, chosen, in all rounds.
Now it`s to be used once per clan wars !!
As for your system it would be an improvement but it wouldn`t be enough. Losing points means nothing to those who aren`t interested in finishing clan wars. Once at -10 they restart a clan. Especially now that playing clan games or clan wars is useless. They only incentive was to buy artifacts... but once in the finals, we can`t even use them anymore. So all you need is 18 clan points? You don`t need 6 months to achieve that. One week is enough.
Another thing I`d like to see improve is the way you can compete within the clan tourney. Artifact wars, The Lure and the grand team alliance are all ways that weren`t used. None seemed to know what it was about.
I don`t have any solutions to propose as of yet. I wish more people interested in clans would discuss about them solutions. I`m convinced that clan subtourney can be very good.
- Frank
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 04, 2001 05:37 AM |
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base rules
the base rules are sound, so we need to reconfigure the point system for winloss in clan wars and all the other clan point gainloss methods. We have time, so I'll leave this open for people to recommend on how we should modify the rules for points, wins, losses, and forefits in clans.
I will leave it up to the players to discuss this before we set anything in stone.
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 04, 2001 01:34 PM |
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Homm4- toh clan start
i canīt find it to quote it anymore, but i read that clans will start as soon as Homm 4 toh starts. (wich starts as homm 4 is released right?)
But is it not needed to have maps before you can play clan games? I was wondering how you were planning to do this, will we use 3DO maps for the start of the season?
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted July 04, 2001 05:35 PM |
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Frank no more DDoor spell for you... :)
Frank, you slip off in to paralell dimensions everynow and then. For the last 2 seasons basically the entire life of clans, it has ALWAYS been the same rule for clan artifacts. They can only be used in a war and only once per round. That has never changed so if you thought other wise then you were thikning wrong the entire time that is all. So no one is changing the rules on you you are just now learning them.
Jinxer
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Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
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posted July 04, 2001 05:41 PM |
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points suggestions...
First of all, I think the double points for archenemy should be dun away with. Way to many people abused this. I.E. only playing 2 matches forfeiting the other 2 and then thinking they deserved 8 points
an idea would be to make Clan war victory = 5 pts.
Clan war loss = 1 pt. If you dont finish the war for what ever reason then the violators get -3 pts.
Basically they only have to worry about losing 1 pt if they finish or lose 3 if they dont.
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 04, 2001 07:44 PM |
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Clan arties:(
Diversify them! Neutrals get snowty arts, most of them... or multiply them... so more arts of the same kind can be bought.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 04, 2001 08:39 PM |
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clans start day 1 of homm4 TOH.
Quote:
i canīt find it to quote it anymore, but i read that clans will start as soon as Homm 4 toh starts. (wich starts as homm 4 is released right?)
But is it not needed to have maps before you can play clan games? I was wondering how you were planning to do this, will we use 3DO maps for the start of the season?
Yes, when homm4 TOH begins, (on release of Homm4) clans are open. Though one to open a clan would still need at least 4 games on record to open one, and even more solid rule will follow in that they would need to have at least 1 other 4+ games player as a member before they could open one, to reduce 'reservations' of spots.
The limits to one philosophy, being 3 right now probably will increase as well, since early on in the game noone will really know what 'town' or philosophy will be the 'best' one, and we will jump from 500-1000 active members to over 5000 anyways....
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 04, 2001 08:40 PM |
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Ves I like that idea.
Input as to what those bonusses might be anyone?
-dEth8
Quote:
Well in case of clan wars, forefits could be counted as elimination of a true clan war, and partial point given to it instead? So if there were 2 forefits, the 4 full pointage would be reduced to 2 points.
Incentive could be given to promote complete clan wars, by giving greater point bonus to a complete clan war, and even perhaps some priviledge or bonus to the losing warring clan, as incentive to finish?
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 04, 2001 08:42 PM |
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clan arts
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Diversify them! Neutrals get snowty arts, most of them... or multiply them... so more arts of the same kind can be bought.
Should clan arts be allowed to be 'bought?' or won in clan wars only? That way people will be encouraged to do wars to acquire them.
Neutrals were usually kickass philosophies, like griffins --but diversifying arts is not a problem. Early in TOH clans there will be NO arts, until we have a better understanding of all the goodies homm4 has to offer (unless I had advanced knowledge of homm4 by being a beta tester -- ya right )
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 05, 2001 01:23 AM |
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Clan reports
Speaking of clan points...
My friend Eswhole had an idea... let all clan reports be made through the normal toh report page, perhaps adding a checkbox for clan games/wars. Thus it will be less likely that fraud will occur. In this system, it is far too easy to separate clan games from normal toh games... especially for the knight philosophy. This will also cut down on the number of clan/non toh disputes, since it would not be possible to report a clan game without reporting for the normal toh ladder as well.
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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zedrin
Known Hero
Ping pong goes the gong
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posted July 05, 2001 01:29 AM |
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Yeah, i think that clan artifacts should be mainly won through clan wars... or perhaps weaken them to the point where they only provide a tactical advantage... for example the recanter's cloak or the orb of vulnerability... perhaps just an increase in the clan bonus... griffin philo for example would get the cape of velocity. (the examples only apply to heroes 3).
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"Blow wind! Come wrack
At least we die with harness on our back" - Shakespeare, Macbeth
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 05, 2001 05:38 AM |
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nice automation
Quote:
Speaking of clan points...
My friend Eswhole had an idea... let all clan reports be made through the normal toh report page, perhaps adding a checkbox for clan games/wars. Thus it will be less likely that fraud will occur. In this system, it is far too easy to separate clan games from normal toh games... especially for the knight philosophy. This will also cut down on the number of clan/non toh disputes, since it would not be possible to report a clan game without reporting for the normal toh ladder as well.
Actually with the new automation, there will be special 'checkboxes' when reporting wins/losses for TOH, specifically for more traditional tourneys like divisions, clans, warlords, and others.
So if you play a clangame, you tickmark 'clan freechallenge' on the winloss report, and when we recieve the updates, the clan rankings updater will get a special list of winloss reports, those who tickmarked for clangames.
It will be a kickass setup, and will make reporting games for any TOH tournament a one-step process
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted July 05, 2001 05:41 AM |
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clan arts to enhance clan bonus
Quote:
Yeah, i think that clan artifacts should be mainly won through clan wars... or perhaps weaken them to the point where they only provide a tactical advantage... for example the recanter's cloak or the orb of vulnerability... perhaps just an increase in the clan bonus... griffin philo for example would get the cape of velocity. (the examples only apply to heroes 3).
Hmmmmmm..... yes, now that strikes an idea, clan artifacts will modify bonuses of the philosophy... enhancing them slightly with each additional artifact? So the clan stays true to its bonus, just gets more powerful of a clan. This would also eliminate the logistics of choosing who gets art in what round and how it could be used..... hmmm this might be the way to go for clan arts entirely... anyone disagree?
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