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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 27, 2003 08:36 PM |
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The lab and the shelter are located in israel.
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privatehudson
Responsible
Legendary Hero
The Ultimate Badass
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posted June 27, 2003 09:04 PM |
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How many labs are there in Israel? How many persue this kind of treatment of animals? What kind of laws govern these things in that country?
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We're on an express elevator to Hell, goin' down!
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 27, 2003 09:16 PM |
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About the laws...
Laws:
In israel the laws that defendig the animals are rough!
Eaven cuting dogs tails is forbiden.
Labs thet are testing on animals for cosmetics are closed and the owners are being put behined bars.
And the medical reaserch labs are closly supervised.
Pressure:
The shelters have a great debts to the banks, the economy in israel is falling.
Animals are being put asleep evry day in israel because there is no place in the shelters.
There is only 3 organizations in israel wich have shelters all over the country.
Labs:
There are not much legal labs as much as illegal.
And labs of very big companies are illegal!
Companies like L'ancome and Loreal.
Thats really makes me upset.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2003 02:39 AM |
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Congratulations for utterly missing the point I was making.
Sorry PH, I had overlooked the "or bums off the street"-part. In response to that, your comparison is correct and justified.
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As for the whole animal pain thing, well I'm sorry, but call me selfish, but I'm a human, my species is HUMAN, and in a fight to ensure my species survives diseases I am not willing to see Humans die rather than animals. It has nothing to do with superiority, and everything to do with preservation.
That´s an honest response, and nothing to be sorry about. I´m just interested how people answer this question, because it gives me alot to think. Myself I can agree with you, when we solely talk about human life vs. animal life. Although I suspect that this evaluation of ours is influenced by the same kind of emotions that underlie racial and national elitarism.
What I find more problematic is the aspect of pain. There are extends of pain and suffering that just should not be felt by anyone, and I see no different if the receiver has a human body or an animal one - human intelligence or a more simple way to process informations. I mean the kind of pain that, given the choice between a week of torment at the end of a long life, and nonexistence, would make us rather choose nonexistence.
I do not at all like the thought that for example millions of hens suffer this kind of unendurable pain, just to make the meat a few Cents cheaper for us to buy.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2003 03:30 AM |
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Is that why hamsters eat their young when required to? Animals make completly rational preprogrammed decisions which are benifitial to their survival as a species.
Eating one´s young is a completely rational decision that is beneficial to one´s species?
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Humans, on the other hand, may do something completly irrational for their children or loved ones that will not help anyone, but is just demanded by their human emotions.
I always thought that human actions were more rational than animals´ ...
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The thing is that animals are far more machine like than humans.
No, the thing is that if we are machines, there is no "more" or "less". Our lack of ability to simulate human behaviour doesn´t prove anything other than ... well, this lack of ability.
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This is not just because of intelligence, but also because of emotions - feelings that we cannot yet scientificly explain.
Can you give me a few examples of feelings that cannot be scientifically explained today?
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My attitude would not be changed, because I still believe ...
That is either no answer to my (if-)question, or you´re saying that if science would prove you wrong, you would still stick to your believe, because it makes you feel better that way.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted June 28, 2003 03:58 AM |
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Eating one´s young is a completely rational decision that is beneficial to one´s species?
Yes it is, because it is done when more litte hamsters are not needed but food is.
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I always thought that human actions were more rational than animals´ ...
You thought wrong. Human actions are not quite as rational, expecially if you consider us as individuals and not groups. Why don't all people have sex on the first date in order to increase birth rates? Why are there murders for the purpose of revange? Why do we have the need to spend time on forums when instead we could be hunting for food?
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No, the thing is that if we are machines, there is no "more" or "less". Our lack of ability to simulate human behaviour doesn´t prove anything other than ... well, this lack of ability.
Of course there is such a thing as more or less. This is the entire point: animals are not the same as humans because they are not as emotionally advanced.
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Can you give me a few examples of feelings that cannot be scientifically explained today?
They can be explained but no machine yet has been able to even come close at simulating them without cheating.
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That is either no answer to my (if-)question, or you´re saying that if science would prove you wrong, you would still stick to your believe, because it makes you feel better that way.
If science proves me wrong in what way? Prove me that animals feel actual emotions like love on the same level as humans? If this will be proven, though it's quite obvious that it never will be, then I will change my views.
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Lews_Therin
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted June 28, 2003 05:01 AM |
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Yes it is, because it is done when more litte hamsters are not needed but food is.
When male mammals (for example bears) kill cubs, food and self preservation are not the top prio issues. They attack, often even kill the mother who rushes to her childrens´ defense, even when there are plenty of salmons only a few meters away.
I very much doubt that Hamster mothers kill their children, just to cover a little food shortage. And even if that were true, such a freak case argument is hardly sufficient to describe the motivation of all non-human animals.
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Of course there is such a thing as more or less.
Of course there isn´t. Either we are predetermined and following patterns of behaviour while we are under the illusion of free will, or we are not.
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They can be explained but no machine yet has been able to even come close at simulating them without cheating.
And what point do you think does the inability of today´s machines to simulate human behavior prove?
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If science proves me wrong in what way? Prove me that animals feel actual emotions like love ...
Initially, we were talking about emotions like pain. To discuss (speculate about might actually come closer to the point) animals´ ability to love, we would need to define first what exactly this emotion is.
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Dread_Knight
Known Hero
Converting Vegetarians
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posted June 28, 2003 08:00 AM |
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IYY
Now I told you already that the mother hamster will defend the cub 'till he's finally big anough to look after himself.
It's the FATHER who eat the cubs...
That's why we saperate them when the mother is about to give a birth.
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Orion
Known Hero
Dark God of Ordered Chaos
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posted June 30, 2003 05:51 AM |
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the only reason animals do not appear to be as advanced as us is becuase we are capable of abstact thought and we are able to communicate more complex ideas to other people we also hace an imagination. Technology is also a important factor as it allows us to control our environment making it more suitable for survival so that we can sit around thinking all day. other animal just need hand like ours
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Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil, for it bends to my will
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted June 30, 2003 10:29 AM |
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Father, shmather... What' difference? Animals do what their instincts tell them. All animals, including humans. Nobody cares about "species survivor" (humans sometimes maybe). And if instict makes animal to eat it's child, it (instinct) probably has some reasons. Probably, a bug, why not. Instinct program is never perfect. It's only a good approximation.
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Prove me that animals feel actual emotions like love ...
Prove me that humans feel love ... 
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Why do we have the need to spend time on forums when instead we could be hunting for food?
Another instinct. Self-... etc...
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"more" or "less"
Really, things like machine-likeness, reason, even alivity (?) are NOT definite. They're not booelan functions - yes/no. At least it seems so for modern science. Only imagine: human...ape...bird...frog...insect...slug...microbe...virus... Where is the edge? What is more complex - virus DNA or modern supercomputer? (I dunno, bort maybe)
So, if you want, you may consider animals "less alive" than we. Why not? And cats *less alive* than apes.
[I have a cat BTW. He's beautyful, red and yellow.]
At least, going from human downwards, we know that human *still* has reason and ape *yet* don't. Or we think we know. In any case, one problem less. What would we do if there were antropopitex?
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Mercy_Severity
Adventuring Hero
answer seeker
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posted July 09, 2003 07:39 AM |
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I only read the first 2 pages of this so forgive me for late responding if im repeating someone, but here is how i feel. Human nature is to cotnrol and to feel superior to everything else that exists. In my opinion we are no better than the animals we test in our stead, however hoping and trying to stop it is just being idealistic, no matter how big or small the need it will always be there. Even if we had a magic lamp and wished that no companies or scientests tested with animals, there are still puppy mills and negligent pet owners and expanding human territory that encrouches on wild animals and ruins their existance. Humans will never be able to exist in perfect harmony with animals at the state we are in and theirs no going back. If you look at humanity as a whole we are a plague, we are an animal that uses resources and other beings as resources at rate like a fire burning up its fuel. We take from the world far more than we could ever put back in. We have ruined the world in ways few every think about and it just gets worse. If humans had not come into existence the world as a life supporting planets life span would have been much longer. Im not saying I dont enjoy life, but that i realise however how through testing on animals and many of our other unchangable activites that make us human, we are going to be the eventual cause of the ending of life on this planet.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted July 09, 2003 09:25 PM |
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Bring on the human testing
It may sound like a joke but im "dead" serious. Stop using animals for tests and use the people in prisons who are lifers on non trumped up charges.
Also while we are at use the people who think animals should be tested on to cure OUR illness's as this is the longest way possible to a cure for whatever.
Hurray we cured an animal with aids now to figure out how to do it humans.... hmm why not just start with the human.
Thats my 2 cents
I would rather see a huge car crash where a few people died than a dead cat at the side of the road. I care more about animals than I do people most people dont deserve the respect we give them.
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted July 09, 2003 10:38 PM |
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I'm highly religous and my religion preaches that the animals are to be used at our disposal. That means that the tests we do can be classified as morally correct.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted July 10, 2003 12:28 AM |
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I'm highly religous and my religion preaches that the animals are to be used at our disposal. That means that the tests we do can be classified as morally correct.
so if your religion preached lets use each other for our own purposes you would do it right? because its morally correct?
meh i dont wanna start this again
I am happy to say i wish you dead 
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted July 10, 2003 01:28 AM |
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Hey man, cool off. First of all I think the whole wish you dead part is a little harsh. Second, I stated, as you may recall, I'm a highly religous person in a highly religous family. What the Bible says, goes. In other words if it did say that, it means I would have to abide by it.
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Mad_Unicorn
Famous Hero
I am a mean person shame on me
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posted July 10, 2003 02:43 AM |
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okay.... im almost sorry for saying what i said... i guess... abiding and believing are 2 different things. Would you go into a mass sacrifice just cus some book told you to?
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted July 10, 2003 03:09 AM |
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Well.. that's stretching it, but I think, that right now, you're just seeing how far I'll go.
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"Brian, look! There's a message in my Alphabits! It says,
"OOOOOOO!"."
"Peter, those are Cheerios."-Family Guy
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Mercy_Severity
Adventuring Hero
answer seeker
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posted July 10, 2003 04:08 AM |
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The bible never says we are free to abuse animals, thats an interpretation. The bible is vague and deliberately so. Christianity is so mixed up, full of contradictions, and the longer it goes the more contradictions there will be.
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Aquaman333
Famous Hero
of the seven seas
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posted July 10, 2003 07:30 AM |
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Well, I think that is what the Bible is basically saying.
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IRh
Famous Hero
Lizard
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posted July 10, 2003 09:26 AM |
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Oh you two
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Bring on the human testing
Ever tried to think?
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I would rather see a huge car crash where a few people died than a dead cat at the side of the road.
1. Have you seen both?
2. It's only your emotions
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I care more about animals than I do people most people dont deserve the respect we give them.
and why animals deserve I wonder?
333=666 
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