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Heroes Community > Other Side of the Monitor > Thread: Same Sex Marriage
Thread: Same Sex Marriage [ This thread is 21 pages long: 1 2 3 (4) 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 ]
Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted October 19, 2003 09:21 PM

LOL!!!!

Thanks Romy for your concern/humor.  Guess I might have gotten a little carried away.  But I must say, however one comes down on this issue, each position at least deserves a bit of respect from the others, don't you think???
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Kaiser
Kaiser

Tavern Dweller
für das Vaterland
posted October 20, 2003 12:27 PM

<quote>People that marry are as stupid and wrong as people that believe in god.</quote>

That's a bit harsh...so i'm stupid? and how do you know i'm wrong about God?
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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted October 20, 2003 06:14 PM
Edited By: Peacemaker on 4 Feb 2004

Thank you, IncuBi, for your thoughtful, well-reasoned contribution to this debate.

There is a rather important piece of the socio-cultural puzzle I left out of the above post.

There is little disagreement in the basic pychological/anthropological studies of the development of Homo Sapiens that females during the hunter-gatherer phase sought out particular males who would show signs of greater likelihood of monogamy.  This is because in that socio-economic subsistence structure, men provided the primary sources of protein, which is critical to brain development. In the hunter-gatherer structure, the division of labor necessitated the females to stay behind and tend the children, while the males went on long hunting excursions because such excursions were not suitably safe for small children.  Child-bonding males (i.e. those who would stick around for the duration of the offspring's childhood) were preferred, and eventually favored in the process of natural selection,  because they engaged in preferential distribution to their own mates and offspring upon return from the hunting trips.

Thus, as the providers of the most essential major food source to familial members, hunter-gatherer dependencies upon men are tagged as another fundamental evoluntionary cornerstone of monogamous marriage.  

So now that women are independently capable of procuring resources for the offspring, yet another traditional building block of monogamous marriage no longer exists.

Therefore, either WWII and Rosie the Riveter have completely sabotaged any hope this country and others like it have for living a "good Christian life," or all us working women need to return home and start rearing our children again, or we need to get on with it and adapt to the naturally-occurring changes in our society.

Sorry if my tone has grown offensive to anybody.  I just feel very, very strongly about this subject.


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Kaiser
Kaiser

Tavern Dweller
für das Vaterland
posted October 21, 2003 04:44 AM

so you do believe in him then? regardless of whether or not you like him...so people who believe in him aren't stupid?

oh and why do you hate God?
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Celfious
Celfious


Responsible
Legendary Hero
NPC
posted October 21, 2003 07:33 AM

we've got to realize where we were born, and the signs cultures taught us.

Although it's culturaly proved that we "in most human cases" disolved to retrosexual accepting societies.

I'm just waitin for the chicks..
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2003 10:37 AM
Edited By: Thunder on 21 Oct 2003

Quote:
That's absurd. I know gay people who are in love. I haven't a clue how you'd be able to say that gay people aren't really in love if you aren't one of them.


Like father loves a son. Brother loves brother. Friend loves a friend. Yes, you can love another human being without ****ing him to the ***. Sorry for the rude language but that's exactly what we are talking about here.

Not everything that feels/seems good is good. And purpose doesn't justify means.

Nature is twisted. Death and sickness wasn't originally part of it.

As for the references of Bible; Leviticus 18. Genesis 19.
Romans 1:
18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshipped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is for ever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28 Furthermore, since they did not think it worth while to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31 they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32 Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practise them.

Here is the law about "slavery" Exodus 21:
2 If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything.
3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him.
4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 But if the servant declares, 'I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,'
6 then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the door-post and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
7 If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do.
8 If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her.
9 If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter.
10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights.
11 If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

Other references to "slavery": Leviticus 25:39;, Deuteronomy 24:7, Jeremiah 34:15 or 34:16.

I used: http://www.biblegateway.com/ and my own Bible for references. I used word "slavery" as a term of search and looked through different versions.
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Kaiser
Kaiser

Tavern Dweller
für das Vaterland
posted October 21, 2003 11:04 AM

thank you for those references, oh and Incubi i hope you don't think i'm having a go, i'm just curious about your beliefs??
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Romana
Romana


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Thx :D
posted October 21, 2003 11:36 AM

http://www.evilbible.com/

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2003 11:45 AM

God hates sin.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 21, 2003 11:52 AM

Quote:
God hates sin.


True, God is filled with hatred.
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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted October 21, 2003 12:04 PM

God loves sinners too

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burgessia
burgessia


Adventuring Hero
posted October 21, 2003 12:19 PM

Quote:
Yes, you can love another human being without ****ing him to the ***. Sorry for the rude language but that's exactly what we are talking about here.


so what do you think if a man ****s a woman in the ***?is that wrong,too? or is it ok, just because it is a woman`s ***?
besides,even if it is a sin,god will forgive us eventualy...i heard that he is a forgiving and loving god...is yours different?

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2003 12:50 PM
Edited By: Thunder on 21 Oct 2003

Bjorn exactly. But he also wants to change us. Unfortunately, that is not possible unless we so want. There have been whole books written about the God's forgiveness. The God of the Second Chance by Greg Laurie explains it all very well I think.

About that "Evil Bible" site, well, author really seem to like to twist the words or doesn't just understand on some of the explanations given there. Which is the very reason why everyone should read the Bible well and with thought.

Sex slaves?
If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. If he selects her for his son, he must grant her the rights of a daughter. If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing and marital rights. If he does not provide her with these three things, she is to go free, without any payment of money.

So pleasing the master means making sex with master? And sounds like slavery indeed when the woman can go free whenever she wants. Plus those "slaves" seemingly got money.

Judges 21, I can't see a section where God does command those men to do the things the author said:
1 The men of Israel had taken an oath at Mizpah: Not one of us will give his daughter in marriage to a Benjamite.
2 The people went to Bethel, where they sat before God until evening, raising their voices and weeping bitterly.
3 O LORD, the God of Israel, they cried, why has this happened to Israel? Why should one tribe be missing from Israel today?
4 Early the next day the people built an altar and presented burnt offerings and fellowship offerings.
5 Then the Israelites asked, Who from all the tribes of Israel has failed to assemble before the LORD? For they had taken a solemn oath that anyone who failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah should certainly be put to death.
6 Now the Israelites grieved for their brothers, the Benjamites. Today one tribe is cut off from Israel, they said.
7 How can we provide wives for those who are left, since we have taken an oath by the LORD not to give them any of our daughters in marriage?
8 Then they asked, Which one of the tribes of Israel failed to assemble before the LORD at Mizpah? They discovered that no-one from Jabesh Gilead had come to the camp for the assembly.
9 For when they counted the people, they found that none of the people of Jabesh Gilead were there.
10 So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children.
11 This is what you are to do, they said. Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin.
12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.
13 Then the whole assembly sent an offer of peace to the Benjamites at the rock of Rimmon.
14 So the Benjamites returned at that time and were given the women of Jabesh Gilead who had been spared. But there were not enough for all of them.
15 The people grieved for Benjamin, because the LORD had made a gap in the tribes of Israel.
16 And the elders of the assembly said, With the women of Benjamin destroyed, how shall we provide wives for the men who are left?
17 The Benjamite survivors must have heirs, they said, so that a tribe of Israel will not be wiped out.
18 We can't give them our daughters as wives, since we Israelites have taken this oath: 'Cursed be anyone who gives a wife to a Benjamite.'
19 But look, there is the annual festival of the LORD in Shiloh, to the north of Bethel, and east of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem, and to the south of Lebonah.
20 So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, Go and hide in the vineyards
21 and watch. When the girls of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, then rush from the vineyards and each of you seize a wife from the girls of Shiloh and go to the land of Benjamin.
22 When their fathers or brothers complain to us, we will say to them, 'Do us a kindness by helping them, because we did not get wives for them during the war, and you are innocent, since you did not give your daughters to them.'
23 So that is what the Benjamites did. While the girls were dancing, each man caught one and carried her off to be his wife. Then they returned to their inheritance and rebuilt the towns and settled in them.
24 At that time the Israelites left that place and went home to their tribes and clans, each to his own inheritance.
25 In those days Israel had no king; everyone did as he saw fit.

25 really explains it all. But the author of EvilBible, purposely or not, left that out of it. I can try to explain or comment on the rest of the things he has said as well. But don't count on it. Don't count on me.

Bort, you think you can continue to do evil time after time without ever getting to be punished? Don't you rather eradicate the rotting limb from your body than let the rot spread to the whole body? Everyone of us die once.

Burgessia, I SAID "human", that means both man and woman. So of course it is wrong.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 21, 2003 01:22 PM

No, I do not think I can do evil whenever it pleases me.  The God you speak of is a hateful God and will punish as whim befits him or her.  If there is an omnipotent God, then he/she punishes good as much as he/she punishes evil so appeals to God's will are a bit empty when discussing morality.
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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2003 01:24 PM

God never punishes out of whim.
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bort
bort


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
posted October 21, 2003 01:26 PM

You mean its premeditated?  Wow!  That's even worse.
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burgessia
burgessia


Adventuring Hero
posted October 21, 2003 01:39 PM

thunder, how does god punish people?what does he do?

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Thunder
Thunder


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 21, 2003 02:35 PM

Hard to explain bort, but when God punishes, He does not punish out of hate but out of love.

However, many punishes themselves out of their sins and so stagnates in them when they could just turn to Him and ask for forgiveness which He is always ready to grant. But continuing doing the sin and ignoring His voice, hardens the heart, then it is all the more so difficult to accept the forgivness. Read the book I recommended, if you want to know better.

What would you do if your child continuosly would want to jump into the swimming pool even if (s)he can't swim? Tie him/her up so (s)he can't jump there?

If God have wanted to do so, He could just have created robots that do everything He says but have no free will. But he gave us free will so that we can choose.

God does not punish us because he'd were malicous, he punishes us so that we wouldn't stray to our own doom. But sometimes people go too far...

And how do you think it is? Has God abandoned people? Or people abandoned Him? He's calling all of us, but many don't want to answer. And many of those who have answered, do not obey.

Book I also recommend reading for everyone is Rick Joyner's books Final Quest and The Call.
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burgessia
burgessia


Adventuring Hero
posted October 21, 2003 02:55 PM

Quote:
What would you do if your child continuosly would want to jump into the swimming pool even if (s)he can't swim? Tie him/her up so (s)he can't jump there?


i would teach him/her how to swim.
if god gave us free will,why does he punish us,if we use it?

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Peacemaker
Peacemaker


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
posted October 21, 2003 03:12 PM

(BTW)

Thank you, Thunder, for providing so much detailed information from the Bible on these issues.  That looks like it took a bit of research!  It's good to have the actual words right here, in the thread, for people to look at in reference, rather than just making comments in uninformed speculation (as I did).

So now, do we take it that you believe the word of God is passed to us literally and directly through the Bible itself, not through any personal revelations? (That being the first of three categories of individuals I described in my post).

If so, I was wondering what you thought of the various language changes the Bible has undergone over the centuries.  I mean, how do you know which version is the correct one?  Once again I am sort-of talking off the top of my head here, but I distinctly recall serious charges that King James, for instance, changed substantive portions of the language to suit the needs of the Crown at that time.

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