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Heroes Community > Turban Tribunal > Thread: Normal Posts - Editing and Deleting POLL
Thread: Normal Posts - Editing and Deleting POLL
Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted April 14, 2006 01:29 AM

Poll Question:
Normal Posts - Editing and Deleting POLL

This is a discussion about non-QP posts. QP posts discussion will be made as a separate poll.

The main issue at hand is history.

What is history?

1. the past events of a period in time or in the life or development of a people, an institution, or a place.

2. a chronological account of past events of a period or in the life or development of a people, an institution, or a place.


Post editing and deleting features on HC serve the purpose of allowing us to correct spelling mistakes, to add to what we've said without starting a new post, to rethink what we've said and make modifications for clearer expression of who we are and what we think, to correct technical details, to remove what we wish we hadn't said, to remove irrelevant points which haven't progressed the discussion, to refine our writing, etc.

A post made at a particular time and date reflects our state of mind at that time and date. The ability to modify that post within a reasonable timeframe serves overall improvement of the forums, and of a member as a person.

However, other people will reply to the post. And if the author of that post changes it later, he/she will effectively create a false impression of what other people replied to. If an author deletes a post that people reply to, it will once again create a false impression about the posts of other people.

In addition, editing or deleting what you've said in the past also conceals and modifies the impression of who you were and how you've thought at the time, thereby giving a false impression to others, or preventing them from seeing the truth.

This way history is no longer history, it is a plot tailored to people's present whims. Others are robbed of the opportunity to see how a particular person evolved, what they were like in the past, how they thought. This is a great learning and understanding opportunity being lost.

I want HC, and us as a community to have a history, which is closer to what the word history means.

The question is, which timeframe is optimal to achieve the best of both: the editing and accurate history. Some time period must be given for editing and deleting, due to the benefits outlined above, and after that time period expires (counting from when the post was made) author's editing and deleting ability for that post should be disabled.

The question is, how long is that optimal period of time which grants the maxium benefits of editing, and maximum accuracy of history.
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com

Poll Results:
 2 votes (13%)
lock edit and delete after 1 month

 0 votes (0%)
lock edit and delete after 3 months

 1 votes (7%)
lock edit and delete after 6 months

 1 votes (7%)
lock edit and delete after 1 year

 11 votes (73%)
unrestricted editing and deleting


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friendofgunnar
friendofgunnar


Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
posted April 14, 2006 02:20 AM
Edited by friendofgunnar on 14 Apr 2006

vote:unrestricted editing and deleting

Quote:
This way history is no longer history, it is a plot tailored to people's present whims. Others are robbed of the opportunity to see how a particular person evolved, what they were like in the past, how they thought. This is a great learning and understanding opportunity being lost.


I judge a person by how they interact with me and others. I don't care nearly as much as how they acted in the past.  

I've been spending a fair amount of time recently going through the tavern back issues and also "behind the moniter" and I can usually tell when something gets deleted.  And people usually make notes about things that get changed or deleted anyway.  It's just not a big issue to me.  I'm willing to concede however that for someone who's been here a long time these archives might represent memories that they don't want tampered with. Anyway,  you can count my vote as "unrestricted editing" but I'm not going to declare war over it...


[edit]
Some small (tiny) examples of when I might need to edit a post after the expiration date:  In my history of the rise of the Sand Goblins I mention a certain "Sheskiten".  I'm working on a novella of Sheskiten now and I might need to jigger the history to make things fit.  This is a specific example of a general principle, which is that Qp posts can still be continually improved on.
Another example: I originally created my "that annoying battle fanfare" thread because I was trying to get rid of all the sounds except for the MP sounds.  My solution was to get rid of the most annoying sounds and work my way down.  If I ever find a complete solution for my original intention (killing the non-mp sounds) I would want to go back and edit my big post that sits in the middle of the thread.  That thread was a non-QP

The vast majority of people probably want this option to be able to improve their original posts.  When people hide something though I think that reflects just as badly on them as the original post probably did.

One compromise you could make is to enact an automatic edit lock after 6 months say, and then if someone wants to edit they can ask a mod.  The mod presses a special button in the doughnut shop or whatever and then the original poster has 1 day to make the changes.  Just an idea...  



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Valeriy
Valeriy

Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
posted April 14, 2006 02:58 AM
Edited by Valeriy on 13 Apr 2006

Could people voting for unrestricted editing outline the benefits of that option. Along with example of when you or anyone else has done so to a good effect.
____________
You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com

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Loknar
Loknar


Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
posted April 14, 2006 05:48 AM
Edited by Loknar on 14 Apr 2006

Unrestricted edit

I think I have outlined enough reasons why I favour unrestricted editing from the viewpoint of the poster in the Owner thread (p. 1/2). In two of my own threads (Avatar/Male and Female) I have altered the thread head in a way that I think beneficial: I added information, links, pictures and such. (Edits are marked.) The Avatar thread would be mostly pointless without that upkeep, since avatars change frequently. If there is enough interest in the thread that it gets bumped after a year, I would like to continue to cultivate it. The Avatar thread also shows that editing can sometimes be necessary to restore the context.

As a reader, I also think that many threads could be improved if momentary off topic oneliners or aside-speaking posts would be deleted. I'm more interested in what people have to say (in the best way they can) than in inspecting a historically exact course of actions. I find it sufficiently transparent if the edits are marked and described in a bottom line.

Generally, I don't see this kind of historical correctness as such a high value and I'm not sure if it has such a positive impact on the community as Valeriy assumes. I can think of many edits and deletes that can be beneficial to the community. I think the Owner thread could be an example for that, and I've also taken away silly stuff others - and especially new readers - probably appreciate being gone.

Finally, if that kind of historical truth is so important, I don't understand why offensive and off topic posts get deleted so quickly. Wouldn't they also be part of that history?

[edit: links, clarifications, grammar ]

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Korejora
Korejora

Promising

posted April 14, 2006 06:02 AM
Edited by Korejora on 14 Apr 2006

My concern isn't as much about editing as it is about deleting. Come to think of it, it's been once that I've actually made use of the editing feature more than a month (or even a week, I think) after the message was freshly in. That's not to say I wouldn't still like to see the feature present, though, because I know I've noticed some old posts edited (by others) that I nod say and say good stuff to when I notice what has changed. (Loknar, Consis, and Khaelo come to mind.) This is one of those choosing between personal freedom and collective safety things... and I don't think HC's history is really being threatened by a horde of self-denying perfectionists.

Moreover, on the deleting aspect... I think I've deleted a good 40 or 50 old posts of mine that simply didn't add anything to threads, or worse, were completely irrelevant. I don't think people would purposely delete their own posts from historical threads just to interrupt conversation - most that would probably haven't contributed to anything significant enough for it to be damaging. IMHO, there's no reason to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=17722]delete a QP post[/url], so keep those babies permanent like you plan to. For normal posts, though, it can come to the attention to the author at any time after the discussion (or just the original post date) that one of their posts just doesn't belong there. That's when it's nice to just pluck it right out and marvel at how much more orderly the thread is afterwards.  

(edit) - A restriction on how many deletions and edits one can make within a certain timeframe is a perfectly good idea. This would, as said by Loknar and RSF below, prevent large-scale destruction of history.
____________
That's the best part.

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Binabik
Binabik


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted April 14, 2006 06:20 AM

Just a reminder. You can still ask a mod to delete a post.
____________

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RedSoxFan3
RedSoxFan3


Admirable
Legendary Hero
Fan of Red Sox
posted April 14, 2006 05:12 PM

It's a privilage that I think all posters, especially good posters deserve. You shouldn't penalize your best posters, simply because one person in 5 years decided to delete a post.

This situation vaguely reminds me of my high school graduation. They decided several years back that wearing all your medals and chords at your graduation wasn't allowed, because it was unfair to the students who received nothing.

Though the analogy isn't perfect, I feel that it is still the same thing of taking things away from people who have earned their right to it. The intentions of this I think might be good, but I honestly feel that everyone here who has posted and contributed has the right to edit posts.

The only situation where I think it would be a good thing is to have post deletion timers. So like deleting one post a day.

Another thing to think about is this. When people get QPs, we can just quote reply the post, so it's still there at a later time. If we feel that they might edit their post at a later time, just quote reply the post just for the sake of doing it.
____________
Go Red Sox!

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Loknar
Loknar


Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
posted April 14, 2006 05:48 PM
Edited by Loknar on 14 Apr 2006

Quote:
it would be a good thing is to have post deletion timers. So like deleting one post a day.
I'd be entirely happy with that, too. And I think it would be sufficient to prevent amok deletion (though not blank-edits).

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angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted April 15, 2006 03:41 PM

I voted the first one. Why?

Just look at the other poll here.
Xarfax deleted 3 of his posts there, and now the whole conversation doesnīt make any sense anymore. The only solution to prevent that is, to ALWAYS quote the previous post when u want to add something to the thread. That way, the original post isnīt that important anymore, but every thread would get bloated like hell.

So in my eyes, u should disable the "delete" button. That way, someone can edit out his post completely, but at least the blanket post would stay, and the following posts would make sense, instead of given the picture someone was talking to himself.
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

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Loknar
Loknar


Adventuring Hero
Missing Links
posted April 15, 2006 04:56 PM
Edited by Loknar on 15 Apr 2006

Angelito, I see your point, but I don't agree. Xarfax has deleted some of his posts in the Owner thread as well. And I have deleted my responses to them - and feel much better now. Some conversations should not be kept permanently imo - for the sake of the community. Everybody who was involved has learned something, I hope, but I don't think it is of any interest to those who weren't. I agree that the discussion about democracy and HC doesn't fall into this category. Perhaps Xarfax has deleted his posts because he saw that democracy and freedom of speech is just not a valuable argument for HC. (And then, counterarguments aren't necessary, either. Delete them too, and the whole conversation would make sense again - and be much easier to read.) The whole incident might be just as well an example of why deletion should be kept.

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