Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Ring of Celerity vs. Ring of Speed
Thread: Ring of Celerity vs. Ring of Speed This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted May 26, 2008 01:51 AM

Poll Question:
Ring of Celerity vs. Ring of Speed

Here's the scenario.

You have a War Machinist.  You have three rings, two rings of celerity and a ring of speed.  

Now, knowing that the ring of celerity juices up the initiative of your Ballista where the ring of speed doesn't, do you double up on your rings of celerity and lose 10% creature speed just for that +10% Ballista speed?  Or do you mix and match?

Poll Results:
 5 votes (14%)
Good question. I didn't know the Celerity ring upped my War Machines

 5 votes (14%)
Zomg Triple Flaming Arrow uber pwnage!!!11 Double Celerity!

 9 votes (24%)
Losing 10% for my creatures isn't worth it, even for a War Machinist. I'll mix

 5 votes (14%)
Ham Sandwich

 2 votes (5%)
Why haven't you been banned yet?

 2 votes (5%)
You mean dorfs can have a 17 initiative Ballista!? Zomg imba!! Nerf dorfs!!11

 0 votes (0%)
I thought Temple of Ashan was a dumb-poll-free zone.

 3 votes (8%)
Only difference between you and kd Gootch, is you occasionally use spellcheck

 0 votes (0%)
Where's the War Machine Ring? I'd double up on those before anything else.

 6 votes (16%)
Drink bleach and die. Please.


 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 26, 2008 02:26 AM

Depends how late in the game and against which faction. One question, do both rings of celerity stack?

Even so lategame two rings of speed are simply superior. Especially with factions that rely on might or have access to light magic.

But before week 4 an insane ballista shooting first is where all is at. Against sylvan it still is in lategame, if you manage to shoot the arcane archers a good part of your problems are gone. I've had a game of orcs vs sylvan and I managed to shoot arcanes with ballista and druids with centaurs. The rest of the battle was easy even though he used rain of arrows with frenzy and I had no shatter.

Yet not all races can let a ballista do all the work. Orcs and demonlords yes, the rest depends on the stats they can gain in that map. With sylvan I would probably not even consider ring of celerity flaming arrows or not.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted May 26, 2008 03:29 AM

Relic artifacts don't stack.  Hence, it is a waste to double up on Rings of Speed.  But 2 rings of Celerity will.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Falkenstein
Falkenstein


Hired Hero
posted May 26, 2008 07:23 AM

With proper feats (Imbue Ballista, Tripple Ballista, Flaming Arrows, Expert Destructive) even Sylvan warmachinist can be deadly. Then, two Rings of Celerity will help you nicely. Be careful, though, because two RoC will make your Ballista act before your Ranger. You will have to shoot without imbuing or wait.
I´d prefer Ring of Celerity + Ring of Speed (maybe + Mass Haste) on any day, especially if I can get Empathy

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
WarLore
WarLore


Famous Hero
servant of urgash
posted May 26, 2008 07:28 AM

ring of celerity and ring speed are unfair but very good if you have them.for now,i have game with my friend where he is lvl21 black hand dungeon hero with those two arties.
____________
A Nightmare from below.A hero from Within

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted May 26, 2008 09:51 AM

Why can't you just use both? Ofcourse that depends on your third ring?

But As Elvin pointed out it depends on where in the game you are and what skills you have
____________
Don't walk behind me; I may not
lead. Don't walk in front of me;
I may not follow. Just walk
beside me and be my friend.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Warmonger
Warmonger


Promising
Legendary Hero
fallen artist
posted May 26, 2008 10:11 AM

My answer is 1, i.e. I didn't know this use of Ring of Celerity.

But I would choose two of them only in once case, it is Wyngaal with imbued ballista. This way all my units including this toy would move first and later speed of an army does not make so big deal as I already dominate the battlefield.

For the ones like Kaspar and Vittorio I would just pick 30% bonus to initiative.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Sargeras
Sargeras


Known Hero
the Fallen
posted May 26, 2008 10:18 AM

IMO ring of speed + ring of celerity... In lategame RoS is more advantage then RoC and is helpfull in early game too. So i wouldn't swap 10% creature speed for +10% ballista speed...
____________
Now they shall be consumed by the very flame they sought to control...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted May 26, 2008 10:25 AM
Edited by alcibiades at 10:26, 26 May 2008.

One needs to take a certain fact into account, however, when talking about Sylvan and imbued ballista abuse. Problem is that once you've imbued the ballista, each time the Ballista has its turn, your Hero gets his ATB reset to 0 (essentially like he's casting a spell). If your Ballista has higher Initiative than your Hero, this means that the Hero will never get to have another turn once you've imbued the Ballista - unless you skip turns with the Ballista, effectively negating the usefulnes of the two Rings of Cele(b)rity.

Sorcery would probably circumvent this, however, as Sorcery corresponds to a 43 % boost of your Hero's initiative (which is greater than the 2 x 10 % Initiative boost of the Ballista).

EDIT > Duh. Just saw someone commented on this also a couple of posts above me.
____________
What will happen now?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Isabel
Isabel


Known Hero
Dragonblessed
posted May 26, 2008 03:01 PM

If you are a war machinist, you depend on ballista more than your troops right? If that so you should use two ring of celerity instead of ring of speed, I think.
____________
Griffin eternal!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Falkenstein
Falkenstein


Hired Hero
posted May 26, 2008 03:30 PM

Quote:
One needs to take a certain fact into account, however, when talking about Sylvan and imbued ballista abuse. Problem is that once you've imbued the ballista, each time the Ballista has its turn, your Hero gets his ATB reset to 0 (essentially like he's casting a spell). If your Ballista has higher Initiative than your Hero, this means that the Hero will never get to have another turn once you've imbued the Ballista - unless you skip turns with the Ballista, effectively negating the usefulnes of the two Rings of Cele(b)rity.


Thx for pointing that out, I never knew whether it was a bug or not
Sorcery can help with it, but i prefer Empathy. That, however, forces you to completely devote your hero to war machines (you´ll have War Machines, Leadership, Destructive/Dark and your starting skill). If you have 2 RoC or RoS, as The_Gootch said, your units will act much more often (i think the Initative bonuses are multiaplicative) and get good morale far too more often. Your Ranger will hopefully get to play right before the Ballista.
In this situation, I guess RoS + RoC will be much better than 2 RoC, because your Ballista won´t act that often, but your Ranger will act much more often.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted May 26, 2008 04:35 PM

Elvin raises some excellent points.  2 rings of celerity in conjunction with the Dragon Talon crown gives your ballista a 13 initiative.  How many of you during the days of HoF thought to yourself how cheap Runic War Machines was for the dorfs and how unfair it was?

2 rings of celerity will give your Ballista a 12 initiative.  Now, that's an advantage over that nasty stack of Arcane Archers.  But does it give you enough of a cushion?  Get your ballista to a 13 and you're almost guaranteed to go before them.

Also, so much of the game involves the way we attack the map.  Isabel put it very clearly.  If you're a War Machinist your ballista will do most of your grunt work.  Doubling up on the rings gives you a distinct advantage over all those 10 initiative shooters and spellcasters.  If you're going the Swift-Minded hero route, that might mean you only have to deal with one stack instead of two, which could save on mana, which could lead to more efficient creeping.

Cost-efficiency, rings of celerity are much more likely to be laying around on the map.  They are majors after all and the ring of speed is a relic class.  

Now, for a final battle it might make sense to mix them up.  But is +30% creature speed that much more noticeable than +20%?  I don't know.  Then again, is +20% ballista speed that much more noticeable than +10%?  Elvin answers that by saying that first shot is so crucial.  Heck, doubling up your rings and wearing a dragon crown might be the only way you'll get a shot off against a swift-minded cold death user.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Disturbed-Gnu
Disturbed-Gnu


Supreme Hero
Pro Bacon Vodka Brewer
posted May 26, 2008 10:21 PM

Thats easy! i never use thoose damn war machines!
So i mix and match ofcourse!
Even if i'm expert in war machines with ballista and triple balliste i still don't use the war machines that much!

The only way i will set my ballista in a higher position, is when i have the Demon Hero with "Iron Maiden ability"

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 26, 2008 10:57 PM

The problem with warmachines is that they only have 2 init artifacts that affect them but units have so many more. Then there are boosts for archers, small units, flying not to mention that random atb bar. Even with swift mind a hero can act before init 13 but it is a risk worth taking at times.

If the ballista can't play first there are other ways. Staff, ring that reduces luck, evasion or cloak of death's shadow so that the enemy either acts slower or has decreased luck. And of course elemental resistance artifacts against a warlock.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Nebdar
Nebdar


Promising
Supreme Hero
Generation N
posted May 26, 2008 11:42 PM

Since the effects of two RoS are not cumulative I would take a mix of those two rings. Boosting init of your units is more important because it increase the chance of survival after all if you loose all units the fast and furiuos ballista will not help you.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
Falkenstein
Falkenstein


Hired Hero
posted May 27, 2008 09:19 PM

Sorry, but I must bother you with a bit more theory:

2 Rings of Celerity:
Ballista: Initative 12.1 => Ballista inflicts about 20% more damage
Army: +21% Initative => +20% damage (approximately)

Ring of Celerity + Ring of Speed:
Ballista: Initative 11 => Ballista inflicts about 10% more damage
Army: +32% Initative => +32% damage (approximately)

Now let´s think about it. Is 10% dmg inflicted by your Ballista more significant than 10% dmg inflicted by rest of your army? Maybe during earlygame. But, how the hell do you want to get RoS/RoC early? Lategame, army becomes more powerful than Ballista (excluding Deleb).
Another possibility is a fight against an enemy with Cold Death. 2 RoC could help your Ballista act before enemy hero (even if he has Swift Mind). Yet, does one Ballista attack turn the tide of battle? Maybe. But I´d rather have all my army backed by RoS, instead of giving Ballista one shot.
It all should change a bit when we take Imbue Ballista into consideration. However, once your opponent realizes you have Imbue Ballista, he´ll proceed to destroy it, no matter the costs.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
The_Gootch
The_Gootch


Honorable
Supreme Hero
Kneel Before Me Sons of HC!!
posted May 27, 2008 11:30 PM
Edited by The_Gootch at 23:32, 27 May 2008.

Personal experience for me says it isn't as simple as plugging in percentage bonuses to damage.  

For example, My Havez went against a nasty Helmar who had just spanked my big, bad Nur.  In spite of my double build, it was just silly how badly mopped that army got.  

There were many reasons for this.  1.  I built a fight against the map monster with Summoing, Dark, Light, and Sorc.  2.  Mini arties were mainly +% to initiative and attack.  3.  I of course wildly underestimated how masterful the dwarves can be at shaping where my troops are.  4.  He had Staff of the Netherworld.  5.  He had max Luck and Morale and I had maybe 2s.  

My troops in my second army weren't doing any damage, but my Lucky Flaming Arrowed Ballista was just wreaking havoc on him.  Case in point, a lucky twin doubleshot from my ballista killed 150 skirmishers.  What was that, 1500 damage?  Crazy.  Even without Luck, I'd daresay that my Ballista was doing a far greater percentage of my overall damage than any 3 other units combined in my army.

Imbue Ballista is a godly ability.  But only one hero has access to it and even then it takes a long time to develop.  Flaming Arrows, well, anyone can get them.  And ignoring enemy defense is just unbelievably powerful, especially in midgame when your stats are still creeping up towards the 20s and 30s.

Because of how awesome Flaming Arrows is, I think it does merit a look at the importance of buffing the ballista's intiative.  Sure it can be taken out, but unless you're going against a cold death user, it isn't the easiest thing to do in the world, especially if the War Machinist is taking measures to protect their precious ballista.  1100 hit points is pretty stout.      

Edit:  For those of you who are doubting whether or not the Ring of Celerity actually does buff the War Machines' intiatives, take a look at the wording for the two artifacts.  Celerity buffs all units.  Speed buffs all creatures.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted May 28, 2008 12:00 AM

@Falkenstein
That's way too simplified and what I'd call paper rules

Quote:
Ballista: Initative 12.1 => Ballista inflicts about 20% more damage
Army: +21% Initative => +20% damage (approximately)

This is far from the truth. In a long game a +20% barbarian ballista can mean -14 archangels in first attack or nothing at all. If it does hit don't expect it to hit twice. The better the initiative the better the chance it will have any effect at all.

+20% initiative on the other hand depends on the faction. On sylvan it can mean a first round victory. On academy it can mean a game where they have an edge. The amount of damage is hard to calculate, factions like haven/sylvan may score one hit kills or die because a swift minded warlock blasted them from the beginning. Only case where extra initiative scales accordingly to damage is when the damage output is reduced or steady, say with dwarves.
____________
H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Falkenstein
Falkenstein


Hired Hero
posted May 28, 2008 07:37 AM

OK, you win. Since today, I promise I´ll stop underestimating Ballista and two Rings of Celerity

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Laue
Laue


Adventuring Hero
posted May 30, 2008 02:38 PM

I never new ring of celerity does that. Then again I'm still quite a newbye to Heroes 5 (and TotE). Anyway IMO it depends on hero (Like Deleb). Deleb would get a quite good advantge, as her balista wreaks much more havok then her creatures, unless there is a lot of them. But since inferno creatures are mostly glass cannons, it's hard to higher numbers, atlest for me. I ussualy have less imps than I have succubi, AI always prefers killing them. ><
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0552 seconds