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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted May 18, 2008 10:19 PM |
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Edited by executor at 22:28, 18 May 2008.
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The owner has the right to remove them so long as he does not kill them in the process.
Also the "trespasser" should not be forced to take costs of the removal on himself if he is unable to leave by his own ability. Especially if the cost is his life.
Besides, the owner can remove the other guy only after informing the 'offender' that he is consenting no more. And only after receiving this information, if the 'trespasser' is still unwilling to leave (if able), we can say that the 'trespasser' has initiated agression.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 18, 2008 10:21 PM |
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Fetus did not take any action against the woman, and the state it is in is not a result of its actions.
The fetus is on private property (the mother) without the owner's (the mother's) consent, thus the fetus is a trespasser. Trespassing is in of itself an initiation of force. The fact that it is unaware of its actions, or can't do anything about them, is irrelevant. For example, if you allowed a mentally retarded quadriplegic onto your property, but later revoked your consent, would they not be a trespasser? In this case does the property owner not have a right to remove the trespasser?
VS
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The owner has the right to remove them so long as he does not kill them in the process.
The only problem i see here is: A potensial life gets more value than a completely evolved life.
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 18, 2008 10:22 PM |
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Executor: No. The owner has the right to remove them in the gentlest way possible. If there's no way to remove them without killing them, then killing is the gentlest possible way, so he or she has the right to do so.
If you have an intruder breaking into your house, you have the right to remove them. Sometimes they won't leave, and then you can kill them. Same with a fetus.
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Besides, the owner can remove the other guy only after informing the 'offender' that he is consenting no more. And only after receiving this information, if the 'trespasser' is still unwilling to leave (if able), we can say that the 'trespasser' has initiated agression.
Hence the example of the mentally retarded quadrapalegic. You can just pick them up or drag them off your property. You can't deal with a fetus that easily, unfortunately.
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Eccentric Opinion
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 19, 2008 11:21 AM |
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If you have an intruder breaking into your house, you have the right to remove them. Sometimes they won't leave, and then you can kill them. Same with a fetus.
You MUST be truly joking with the last phrase 'same with a fetus'.
It's not the fetus' fault that he was born (so to speak), unlike the burglar which enters your house. If the analogy was "the burglar entered your house because you told him to, and then you kill him" then it would have been 'the same'.
You need to take responsibility, plain and simple. Face it.
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del_diablo
Legendary Hero
Manifest
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posted May 19, 2008 12:19 PM |
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Quote:
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If you have an intruder breaking into your house, you have the right to remove them. Sometimes they won't leave, and then you can kill them. Same with a fetus.
You MUST be truly joking with the last phrase 'same with a fetus'.
It's not the fetus' fault that he was born (so to speak), unlike the burglar which enters your house. If the analogy was "the burglar entered your house because you told him to, and then you kill him" then it would have been 'the same'.
You need to take responsibility, plain and simple. Face it.
If a parasite enters your body, you got the rigth to remove it in the way that causes the least harm to it.
If killing it would be the solution that would harm it the least possible you could do that.
The same apply's with a fetus, if its not planned and is a accidental pregnanacy(the P-pill failed) tecnically.It could ruin your life and stuff, and alot of other factors even if it wasjust an accident.
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 19, 2008 12:21 PM |
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Edited by TheDeath at 12:23, 19 May 2008.
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If a parasite enters your body, you got the rigth to remove it in the way that causes the least harm to it.
If killing it would be the solution that would harm it the least possible you could do that.
Again, same wrong analogy that mvassilev put up -- you don't let the parasite enter your body 'voluntarily', while for the fetus it's usually you who are to blame.
EDIT: to put it up with that parasite analogy, it goes like this:
It's like you are injecting the parasite voluntarily. If this was the analogy, it would be 'the same' with a fetus. 
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 19, 2008 02:52 PM |
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It's like you are injecting the parasite voluntarily. If this was the analogy, it would be 'the same' with a fetus.
You make it sound like all pregnancies are planned.
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 19, 2008 03:14 PM |
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You make it sound like all pregnancies are planned.
I will not get into my beliefs but this part is pretty cut and dry. Unless sex is forced by rape or incest it is voluntary. Whether you are wrapped in saran wrap then a condom and taking the pill, it does not matter, you are choosing to have sex with that person. There is always a chance of pregnancy, even if your tubes are tide or the guy is fixed it does not matter.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 19, 2008 04:12 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 16:14, 19 May 2008.
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You make it sound like all pregnancies are planned.
I will not get into my beliefs but this part is pretty cut and dry. Unless sex is forced by rape or incest it is voluntary. Whether you are wrapped in saran wrap then a condom and taking the pill, it does not matter, you are choosing to have sex with that person. There is always a chance of pregnancy, even if your tubes are tide or the guy is fixed it does not matter.
However sex is one very basic need of a human being. It is not really fair to say "you shouldn't have sex at all". That is not healthy.
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 19, 2008 05:16 PM |
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No it is not a need, human touch is a need according to scientist to live a healthy life, touch is different than sex, there are nuns that never have sex and live healthy lives. Do they pleasure themselves, sure, but having sex is not a necessity in order to live and breathe. So yes it is fair to say that if you do not want to be pregnant then don’t have sex, period.
My 18 year old daughter tried the same bull**** with me when she told me she was knocked up 8 months ago. You have a choice, it may be a strong desire but it is not a need. She now has told me none of the sex was worth any of what she is going through. She decided to keep the baby. All this for a two second nut….Yippeeeeeeeee
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Corribus
Hero of Order
The Abyss Staring Back at You
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posted May 19, 2008 06:26 PM |
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Edited by Corribus at 18:27, 19 May 2008.
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However sex is one very basic need of a human being. It is not really fair to say "you shouldn't have sex at all". That is not healthy.
I don't really feel like getting into an abortion discussion again, but I have to say that this is the most ridiculous thing I've read ANYWHERE in at least a month. It's also a ridiculous defense of abortion AND a ridiculous denial of personal responsibility.
To wit:
Judge: Do you have anything else to say for yourself, young man?
Convicted Rapist: Well your honor, I really feel like I'm not being treated unfairly. After all, sex is one of the most basic needs of a human being. It's not really fair to say that I shouldn't have sex at all. It's not healthy! I *needed* to have sex with someone, and poor Ms. Smith was the first person I came across.
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violent_flower
Promising
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Almost there.
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posted May 19, 2008 06:36 PM |
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Well said.....
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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Minion
Legendary Hero
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posted May 19, 2008 06:45 PM |
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Edited by Minion at 18:52, 19 May 2008.
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Doctors have also said that abstinence from sex from a persons free will is in no way harmful, but IMPOSING it on others can lead to mental disorders at worst case scenario. Human is a sexual being, there is no denying that.. For example if you are living in a relationship, in most cases sex is very important... Accidents can happen. You should still not be forced to have children, even if you enjoy sex with your partner.
As a side note, I would encourage woman to give the baby into adoption, rather than abortion. The forcing of them to bear children by the government... no no no.
@Corribus.
Obviously human sexuality is a subject that can't be talked about without dragging the rapist along... oh well...
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 19, 2008 08:57 PM |
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Unless sex is forced by rape or incest it is voluntary.
Yes, sex is usually voluntary. Pregancy, though, not necessarily.
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As a side note, I would encourage woman to give the baby into adoption, rather than abortion. The forcing of them to bear children by the government... no no no.
This.
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Eccentric Opinion
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 20, 2008 03:37 AM |
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Yes, sex is usually voluntary. Pregancy, though, not necessarily.
WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? You cant get pregnant without sex, so again unless you are raped, getting pregnant is completely voluntary by the shear knowledge of knowing what can happen when engaging in said activity.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2008 03:48 AM |
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VF, you really need to Chill Out.
Yes, it's true that pregancy without sex is impossible. However, do you not consider the position of a woman who wants to have sex but does not want to get pregnant? She has sex voluntarily, but is pregnant against her will.
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Eccentric Opinion
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 20, 2008 04:09 AM |
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Against your will means you have been forced to do something; examine what you just said and save your "chill out" comments for when I' am wrong.....
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2008 04:12 AM |
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She is not forced to have sex, but if abortion becomes illegal, she would be forced to be pregnant. That would be against her will.
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Eccentric Opinion
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted May 20, 2008 04:53 AM |
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Yes if she were forced to, not if she decided to have sex, then it is her choice.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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mvassilev
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
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posted May 20, 2008 02:07 PM |
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You just don't understand what I'm trying to say. I'll try saying it in simpler terms.
She wants to have sex. She has sex. It's not against her will.
She does not want to be pregnant. If abortion becomes illegal, then she will be forced to be pregnant. This would be agaisnt her will.
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Eccentric Opinion
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