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| Thread: The music or the message | |
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bort
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posted December 09, 2004 04:30 PM |
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The music or the message
I was watching a show on VH1 last night and they had an interview with Ann Coulter. She was talking about how much she loved the Grateful Dead and how she used to always go to their shows. Now, I can't think of many people who are more antithetical to the message of the Grateful Dead than Ann Coulter. Concepts such as peace, love and understanding send Ann Coulter into a homocidal rage that can only be ended (after the massive loss of life and property damage) through the administration of truly obscene doses of horse tranquilizers. So it comes as something of a shock to imagine her standing ramrod straight among hippies paralyzed by rage and hypnotic rhythms. It did get me thinking, though, how much can the message and the music be separated?
Some of the music I listen to shares qualities with the music produced by, for instance, neo-Nazi groups. The difference is not in the rhythms or the riffs but in the lyrics. However, if you slap Nazi lyrics on top of the music, it makes me sick to my stomach while if you have lyrics that are simply about, say, drinking beer I love the music.
Or what about Wagner? It is virtually impossible to have a discussion about Wagner without Hitler's name popping in. Yet, does that diminish the quality of his music? I have to admit that at the very least, it does somewhat diminish my enjoyment of his work since it's hard to hear a few bars without having images of concentration camps pop into my head.
I guess my question is, can any of you think of an artist or musical piece whose message or lyrics you detest but which you nevertheless have on repeat in your CD player?
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privatehudson
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posted December 09, 2004 04:35 PM |
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I'm told that U2's lyrics can often be very christian or inspired by that religion, which hardly sits well with my Agnostic outlook 
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Consis
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posted December 09, 2004 05:48 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 9 Dec 2004
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Quite A Few Actually
You're quite right bort. However I would say that I heard the music before I read its history. Take your example of Wagner, I first heard this music in the movie called, "Excalibur". I was really moved very deeply and felt immensely inspired. I only thought of Viking mythology, dying in a glorious battle, seeing the beautiful but strong death maidens of Odin riding down from the heavens to retrieve my slain body and set my soul free. I imagined laying in my bloodied armor on the casualty-littered battle field looking up to the heavens as the clouds and mist dulled my senses.
I believe I had seen the movie when I was a young lad about 14-15 years old. I hadn't actually learned the history behind the requiem until I came upon this online message board(well over 10 years of unspoiled inspiration). Intraspectively speaking, I had gone for quite a few years on how the music truly made me feel. Once I had learned of the horrifying connection to anti-semitism I felt appauled yet unmoved. Personally, I never thought of such things when enjoying the experience. And accordingly so, the adaptive opera production shows no such influence either in my opinion.
I think you bring up an excellent point. 'Ride of the Valkyrie' is not the only such piece that I repetitiously listen to. I have many grossly violent rap songs as well. I don't particularly feel compelled to behave the way the artist does though. I would say I am more reactively moved(conversly inspired) as I come to my own understanding of what the music means to me.
For this reason, I think it's important to not research a song's history before listening to it. And I only feel that way about music. I would say that most other things in life should be approached via the norm, i.e. through research and education. I think this is an occurence that is very unique and need only apply to the act of listening to music.
Now about the actual message of a lyrical piece. Even though I mostly approach music for the music, there are also quite a few songs, that I feel inspired by, that specifically focus on the message. For example, "The Beatles", "Pearl Jam", and "R.E.M." mostly move me for their messages. This is not at all related to the way Jimmy Hendrix moves me. This man was a dope-fiend and a bit looney if you ask me, but his skill with the guitar is very nearly unmatched. I only listen for his instrumental effects.
"The Beatles", on the other hand, I simply deplore the music. I think it sounds childish, simple, and largely lacking in the area of learning curves. In other words, I think anyone could pick up any old string instrument, beat a couple of ad-hock make-shift drums, and wail away at near perfect adaption. To me, the message was one of "common ground". That is to say I think they were telling us all that we're all on this planet together with just as many similarities as differences.
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TheRealDeal
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posted December 09, 2004 06:30 PM |
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Thats what i like about Iron Maiden, i see a deeper meaning in their lyrics..
I can't write a long post about this like you have.. but i really do love IM.
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Asmodean
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posted December 10, 2004 02:17 PM |
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I think Concis summed up my feelings on the issue: I think it's important to not research a song's history before listening to it.
I enjoy music too much to agonise and over-analyse why I listen to it. My rule is - if it sounds good and you like it, does it matter who wrote it?
And that doesn't mean if it's a kick ass tune with Nazi lyrics in it that I won't mind. Listening to the lyrics is important to me too. It really ruins a song in my view, when the lyrics are sloppily written, barely rhyme, and could have been done better by my 10 year old sister.
Ever listened to some of Charles Manson's songs? They're actually quite mellow and good. Yeah I'll listen to the music, but tht doesn't mean I want to BE Charles Manson, or agree with his actions.
You won't go to hell for listening to Marliyn Manson, and you won't go to heaven because you like gospel.
It's just music guys, don't sweat it.
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bort
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posted December 10, 2004 04:24 PM |
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I don't know for sure if music or art can necessarily always be appreciated in a vacuum. Now, its one thing to research an artist or musicians political views before deciding whether or not one likes it, but its another thing to happen to know the history of the piece or the background of the artist and not have it color ones perception of the work.
Art is expression, the artist is trying to say something or convey an emotion. How can knowing what they were trying to say not at least partially affect the perception of the work? In a way, looking at a painting or listening to a song is like having a small conversation with the artist. When you sit down for a cup of coffee or a beer with someone, doesn't your history with that person affect the conversation and color your reactions? It's not restricted to revulsion, Asmodean mentioned Manson (Charles that is). Be honest, at some level, isn't listening to his music enjoyable to you at least partially because looking into the mind of a maniac is oddly fascinating? Doesn't the idea that the same mind could produce horror and beauty make you think and wonder what the difference between genius and insanity is? (Note, I haven't heard Charles Manson's work, so I don't actually know if its any good.)
Of course your not going to hell for listening to any sort of music. I wasn't implying that, I was just wondering how much different people think art and artist can be separated from one another.
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Consis
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posted December 10, 2004 04:56 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 10 Dec 2004
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Excellent Point bort
I believe it's truly a very sketchy thing you mention. Seperating the origins with an artful work's delivery. I would speculate that the initial reaction depends largely on the receiving of a work of art's effect.
Try this example. The 'Great Wall of China', as we all know, was built on slavery, oppression, brutality, people being slaughtered, and didn't really keep anyone from invading China. But still people from all over the world travel to see its greatness. I think it is one of the few man-made things you can see from space.
As I try to understand the meaning of such occurrences, I am led to wonder why and how people could be so despite a piece of art's history. In my opinion, I think that when a person is inspired by something such as the 'Great Wall of China' or some form of directionally low music they look, not at what is wrong with it, but what is right with it. That is to say that I think people can move on without letting our own ignorant bloody past distort the real truth behind such fantastic works of art. We are of course reminded to never forget the barbaric practices of such a terrifying past but we can also try to rise above our origins.
Try this direction of thought. What if when a person visits the Great 'Wall of China' and says to his/her self:
"Wow this is truly an amazing feat of mankind. How dreadful it must have been to have lived through those times. And yet, even at such a low point in our own history, simply gaze upon what we were still able to achieve. This wall is proof of what we can accomplish! What if....what if we made another such wall WITHOUT all of the horror that accompanied the first one? Wouldn't that be even more spectacular? I know it can be done! Look at the proof in front of my very eyes. It is possible! I know it."
It is this sort progressive thinking that gives people hope in the future. I believe man/woman-kind can move forward and learn from our mistakes. But that doesn't mean we should simply throw out the reminders of yesterday. I believe songs, architecture, operas, paintings, and other works of art can also be a reminder of what we can accomplish even during some of our darkest periods of history. What if we recreated such inspiration? But this time without the old horror, instead with a renewed sense of dignity and wisdom. We can do it, I know we can. The proof and inspiration are in our accomplishments of yesterday. They're sitting there, waiting to teach us something important about ourselves. All we have to do is pay attention and listen.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
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posted December 11, 2004 03:28 AM |
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WHen listening to a song, i dont think you should even try to seperate the music from the lyrics, cos its all one work of art. So, lyrics do influence me how i feel about a song, but also sometimes a powerful tune may outweigh the weaknesses of the text.
Luckily, english songs are rarely comprehendable for me, so i dont have this problem very often. 
Political background of the author doesnt influence me when listening to a song, cos I value his work seperately, not related to the authors reputation, be it good or bad.
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terje_the_ma...
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posted December 11, 2004 04:01 PM |
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Quote:
I guess my question is, can any of you think of an artist or musical piece whose message or lyrics you detest but which you nevertheless have on repeat in your CD player?
I guess I'm not too fond of the "message" (it depends on how you see it) of NWAs "A [female dog] is a [female dog]", but I still think it's funny. I mean, I'm the closest thing you can get to a male feminist and all (at least I like to fancy myself that), but it's just something about how Ice Cube describes how girls are all after the money.
I know most girls ain't but it's still funny. But then, it's meant to be funny I guess, so it doesn't really count, does it?
Let's see, if I can find a more fitting example..
Nope, I suppose I only listen to socialist music (or punk, etc.), or music in which the lyrics is something I can agree on. The lyrics is 80% of the song to me, so I guess I'm kinda selective when it comes to this...
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Sir_Stiven
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posted December 11, 2004 05:56 PM |
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personally i value the lyrics highly in a song, i believe music is a great way of sending a message across. Thats the reason i hardly ever listen to songs which texts is in great contrast with my believs.
The only time i listen to other kind of music is when im out partying as then the best dance music is often the ones with as little "lyrics" as possible hehe.
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bort
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Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted December 11, 2004 11:30 PM |
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Svarog, you say the political background of the artist doesn't matter and the art stands for itself, but is that always true?
Take a hypothetical situation, two people cover the song "(What's so funny about) Peace, Love and Understanding." The two people are Desmond Tutu and Donald Rumsfeld. It is the exact same song with the exact same lyrics, but the meaning would be totally different. Desmond Tutu would be pleading with people, wondering why people who preach peace and love are often mocked as naive hippies. Donald Rumsfeld does think peace love and understanding are funny, so it becomes a different song. Same piece of work, but very different message.
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IYY
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posted December 12, 2004 04:09 AM |
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I often can't make out the lyrics when listening to songs but I always make sure to read them on the web to see if there is any real meaning to the song. It's not that songs without meaning or with meaning that contrasts with your beliefs are junk - it's just like listening to instrumental music, where the voice is just another instrument.
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Svarog
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posted December 12, 2004 04:40 AM |
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Quote:
Svarog, you say the political background of the artist doesn't matter and the art stands for itself, but is that always true?
It should. In the example you mentioned irony is part of the meaning of the song. Its not the artists background itself in question. If Rumsfeld really makes such a song, and starts ensuring us his piece is genuine honesty, not mocking, then of course the song should stand for itself.
Ur point though, yeah, authors background often help us descipher what exactly he wants to say, but that is not to say that his political background has any influence on how i value the piece of art.
-and who the hell is tutu?
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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bort
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posted December 13, 2004 02:20 PM |
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Desmond Tutu won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 for his efforts to end Apartheid rule in South Africa.
It's interesting, because there really are two viewpoints on art here, I feel that art is an extension of the artist and therefore, while it isn't the only thing that matters, obviously, the artist can and should influence the perception of the art. Others appear to think that the art stands alone.
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Consis
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posted December 13, 2004 05:03 PM |
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Edited By: Consis on 13 Dec 2004
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Hmm,
I would say it's like meeting a person in real life. Some people may come off as average or simply doing what they are told. How ever, you might gain a more respectable opinion of the person once you've learned of certain redeeming qualities from their own personal life.
Take, for example, Olympic athletes. When you first see them you might say to yourself 'how much they only care about the competition'. But then when you learn of their background, where they came from, and how they came to be in the place that they are you may gain a new respect for the individual. It is of course without question that each olympic event is representative of the best in the world. And when you see the athletes you only initially see their outward appearance. But then you learn some have struggled more than others simply to qualify to compete.
It's the way of the world in my opinion. You have a first impression and then, if inclined, you learn something of an associated history. You run the risk of judging too quickly if you don't wait to hear the right angles to people and their art/music. It's like basing your decision on a half-truth. Something like that only serves to make you look foolish and ignorant most of the time. Patience is a virtue. Educational application can be more rewarding than a quick-to-judge decision based on half-truths.
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Svarog
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posted December 14, 2004 02:16 AM |
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Quote:
It's interesting, because there really are two viewpoints on art here, I feel that art is an extension of the artist and therefore, while it isn't the only thing that matters, obviously, the artist can and should influence the perception of the art. Others appear to think that the art stands alone.
If we're to judge an artist's individual quality, than yes, his background as well as his opus should matter. But judging a piece of art with preconcieved ideas about its worth, is partial approach. Its like judging a person's each action, based on his past record. Then you dont give him a chance to improve. It all goes to create a robust conservative system resistable to change which favors artists with repuation, and makes it difficult for anonymous ones. I'm not in favor of such system.
I just remembered of an example for this topic. (though unfamiliar to non-ex-yugoslavians) There was a famous rock-n-roll band "Riblja Corba" (Fish Stew) in the old Yugoslavia, which was one of the best bands at that time (and we really had some great music then). Most of their songs were about love, rebelious spirit, anti-system, anti-authority etc. When Yugoslavia fell apart, the bulk of the bands betrayed the Yugoslavian spirit and allowed politics to pollute their reputation. Being from Serbia, which was under Milosevic then, and "standing behind your people" meant they took a rather aggressive nationalistic political stance. WHat happened to all the kids from Bosnia and Croatia who had them for idols? Many of them forgot them. Riblja Corba never made a concert in those two countries after 1990, and never will. But surprisingly enough, their music still lives even there. Sometimes when I get together with some fellows Yugoslavians, we sing their songs, but many people avoid them too.
It was interesting, a year ago they had a concert in Skopje, and there were many people who paid a ticket, hated them, but loved their music (me being one of them). There were some boos often when the leader of the band started to talk, but many more out of decency didnt say anything, as much as they wanted to kick his ass (me included).
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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TitaniumAlloy
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posted December 14, 2004 11:26 AM |
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Quote:
I'm told that U2's lyrics can often be very christian or inspired by that religion, which hardly sits well with my Agnostic outlook
A mole
Digging in a hole
Digging up my soul now
Going down, excavation
I and I in the sky
You make me feel like I can fly
So high
Elevation
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TheRealDeal
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posted December 26, 2004 12:13 AM |
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http://www2.memlane.com/jmilner/backmasking.swf
I think this will make this conversation run violently.
The worst part is, it's true. I copied in into my comps recorder, and put it on reverse..
And it was true. Thats friggin!.. i mean.. wow.
Guessing it's only me that doesn't think all of this is a mere coincidence?
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*We all know the that Foobum is the class of all that is Cake.
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greek_god_su...
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Bringer Of Light
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posted December 27, 2004 11:56 PM |
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Heh, lol RD! some cool stuff you´ve got there...
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After all, marriage and murder are not too different - one ends your life and the other is a crime
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DoddTheSlayer
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posted December 28, 2004 01:25 AM |
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To me the music is everything. If i want lyrics i will read poetry, I like it simple and neutral. By neutral i mean music that does not address major issues, does not try to teach or reprove.
I like feel good tunes about simple things like the kind of stuff the beach boys do or the carpenters, and no i am not gay.
I get really P****d off when anyone talks about musicians or any kind of celebrity being a role model.
Appreciate the music but dont worship the musician is my motto with reguard to music.
Not suggesting that anyone posting here does that, i just wanted to contribute my own thoughts.
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Retaliation is for the foolish. Silence is wisdom
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