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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 29, 2005 12:41 PM |
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Turn order
I have a question: in what situations can the order of play change in the following situation:
map Deceptions with slight changes I made, Castle vs. Castle, Sorsha vs. Edric, no speed artifacts, battle on dirt.
Logically, Sorsha's AA's start first, cause she is an attacker and that works fine. But the second round the Edric's AA's started first, and I don't get it why (no slow/haste/prayer was cast first round, both AA's waited). I will send you a save if you wish, I'm interested what would you cast in Sorsha's place ;-), first turn.
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted March 29, 2005 12:45 PM |
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IIRC if hero A's creature moves last in turn x, then if both heroes have fastest units of equal speed, then hero B's creature will begin turn y.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 29, 2005 01:19 PM |
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Quote:
IIRC if hero A's creature moves last in turn x, then if both heroes have fastest units of equal speed, then hero B's creature will begin turn y.
I really didn't know this... That means that the attacking hero in this situation can maintain it's first turn only if it never waits? Or he can wait first turn, play last, loose his first turn second round, but then if both players wait again he will again be first in the third round? Can you direct me to any link, if it exists, that shows every possible situation (I've heard that morale changes things too) concerning play order? thx
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Lord_Woock
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
Daddy Cool with a $90 smile
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posted March 29, 2005 01:36 PM |
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In HoMM3 positive morale does not affect the order of movement. Negative morale might though, since it may make your slowest unit lose it's turn. I'm not sure about this though.
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csarmi
Supreme Hero
gets back
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posted March 29, 2005 01:43 PM |
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I do not think waiting matters. If you have the second slowest troop (last one to act in normal order), you will go first, if not, your opponent.
I am quite unsure though - butwhy don't you test it yourself? It shouldn't be hard.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 29, 2005 02:03 PM |
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Quote:
I do not think waiting matters. If you have the second slowest troop (last one to act in normal order), you will go first, if not, your opponent.
I am quite unsure though - butwhy don't you test it yourself? It shouldn't be hard.
I will test the moment I get the chance, I don't have the game now. But I don't understand what you are saying. Isn't the slowest troop last in normal order, not the second slowest? And how does that influence who will go first in the next round?
Added: neglact this, my err
Well, can I ask you guys something else: how does troop mixing (good+neutral, good+evil, all three together etc.) affect morale exactly? If you have no leadership, or basic,adv, exp? I.e. you have adv (8,4% right?) and you have castle troops + two necro stacks,what is your morale like now? thx again
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted March 29, 2005 02:14 PM |
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Quote:
I really didn't know this... That means that the attacking hero in this situation can maintain it's first turn only if it never waits? Or he can wait first turn, play last, loose his first turn second round, but then if both players wait again he will again be first in the third round?
The thing is at equal speeds the attacker will always move first.For evemple if you have a Fortress army attacking a Tower army, the Dragon flies(speed 13) will move before the master genies(speed 13 too).Now if the tower attacks, then the master genies will have the initiative.This works only on neutral ground of course, not on swamp or snow.
Now let's say Fortress attacks so dragon flies move first: no matter what the dragon flies do(wait, defend or direct strike) the next round they will not move first too, but the master genies will.The third round it will be again the flies turn and so on.(ofcourse when no spells like slow, haste,prayer are involved).
So basicaly without spells/speed arties you cannot wait and double hit a unit with the same speed as the fastest in your army.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 29, 2005 02:20 PM |
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Quote:
Now let's say Fortress attacks so dragon flies move first: no matter what the dragon flies do(wait, defend or direct strike) the next round they will not move first too, but the master genies will.The third round it will be again the flies turn and so on.(ofcourse when no spells like slow, haste,prayer are involved).
So basicaly without spells/speed arties you cannot wait and double hit a unit with the same speed as the fastest in your army.
So,I guess this works for every unit? In a castle-castle battle all attacker's units will go before their counterparts from another hero, but the second round it will be otherwise?
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 29, 2005 02:24 PM |
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Thatīs not really true tigris.
The decision about which unit will start at the beginning of each round (when 2 units have same speed) depends on ONE thing: (except first round of battle)
Who made the last move in the previous round!
e.g.:
You attack tower with stronghold, but stronghold has 1 Archangel in his army aswell. So the Archangels go first, and then, there will be 2 units with same speed (t-birds and mgenies). But now, the mgenies have their turn, coz opponent was the one who made "the last action" on the battle field, so the initiative changes.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 29, 2005 02:34 PM |
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Quote:
Thatīs not really true tigris.
The decision about which unit will start at the beginning of each round (when 2 units have same speed) depends on ONE thing: (except first round of battle)
Who made the last move in the previous round!
e.g.:
You attack tower with stronghold, but stronghold has 1 Archangel in his army aswell. So the Archangels go first, and then, there will be 2 units with same speed (t-birds and mgenies). But now, the mgenies have their turn, coz opponent was the one who made "the last action" on the battle field, so the initiative changes.
So a question, don't have the game now sorry so can't test it: AA' vs. AA's both same speed. If attacker goes first and immediatly attacks, he will ALWAYS be first in the future? Or, the slowest/fastest unit in both armies is of the same speed, attacker will again be first ALWAYS with all units (marksmen-marksmen,griffin-griffin etc) if there is no waiting/casting?
Please, if you can answer to the q about morale, thx
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 29, 2005 03:08 PM |
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Quote:
So a question, don't have the game now sorry so can't test it: AA' vs. AA's both same speed. If attacker goes first and immediatly attacks, he will ALWAYS be first in the future?
Nope, he will be first in next round. The decision is made new by every round.
Quote:
Or, the slowest/fastest unit in both armies is of the same speed, attacker will again be first ALWAYS with all units (marksmen-marksmen,griffin-griffin etc) if there is no waiting/casting?
Same answer here. Itīs always decided at the start of each round. Because one time, there will be a situation, where one side will lose a complete stack (griffins for example). Then the turns could be changed. Depends on the speed of the units. You canīt forsee the whole battle at the start.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 29, 2005 03:15 PM |
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About moral:
All units from the same alignment: +1 moral
Archangel in group: +1 moral
Opponent has Ghostdragon: -1 moral
Necro unit in your army: -1 moral
Units of 2 different alignments: non effect
Units of 3 different alignments: -1 moral
Units of 4 different alignments: -2 moral
Units of 5-7 different alignments: -3 moral
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 29, 2005 05:57 PM |
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Quote:
In HoMM3 positive morale does not affect the order of movement.
Sorry but this is completely wrong.
When it comes to movement order in the endfight the things get very strategic, the chess part comes into the game. The good russian players always take their time to plan when and why they move their creatures. Often enought it is the reason why they can win a fight even if they shouldnt.
If u wouldve read Franks Strategy Guide properly he described how it work and why it is important. Unfortunately he was explaining it so complicated that maybe all overread his important advice there.
He parted every round in 3 waves:
- initiative wave
- the small "moral-wait" wave
- backwave
As angelito already stated is that if two opponents have the same town (therefore the same speed in creatures)the opponent that strikes last will be second in next round initiative. So if u want to influence this u must manage to not strike last to have the next round initiative. So there are many factors that influence movement order:
- creature speed
- striking (or even defend)
- killed creatures
- wait-button
- spells
- morale <--
In the initiative wave the attacker will get the initiative and moves/strikes/waits.. first when creatures are of same speed.
In the backchain all waited creatures will have their action..starting with the slowest to the fastest. So if u move the initiative chain first ull be second in the backchain.
So for example if u controll the artillery u can decide to be first or second in the backchain simply by deciding to wait or strike.
If creatures get morale in the initiative wave they have to move directly after this wave before the backwave, in the direction they got morale.
Lets say all creatures were pressed on wait, except the archangels. They move and get morale. U decide to wait. Lets assume also the marksmen strike and get morale, and again u decide to wait. So between that initiative wave and the backwave there will have to move the archangels and the marksmen first. And as the Archangels got morale first they have to move before the marksman. After the marksman striked the backchain begins.
So if u get morale in the initiative wave u can decide to be first or second in the backchain simply by pressing wait, strike or defend.
To be first or second in the backchain can decide to be last in the first round, which decides to be second in the second round and so on ....
Xarfax1
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Xarfax111
Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
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posted March 29, 2005 06:07 PM |
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Quote:
Units of 2 different alignments: non effect
Thats not completely true. I know what u mean but the exact description should be:
Units of 2 different alignments: no morale
Often enough ive seen players doing the "fodder-split" strategy without observing that they loose the chance for morale, means = minor losses.
In an example someone gets into a difficult fight with a horde of centaurs. He splits his las 4 gremlins to have some candy/prehitters and so on. He has centaurs and evles too. Now hell never can get morale ... he will loose more troups just because he didnt wanted to split 4 centaurs.
Xarfax1
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 29, 2005 08:18 PM |
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Quote:
All units from the same alignment: +1 moral
.......
Units of 2 different alignments: non effect
Units of 3 different alignments: -1 moral
.......
hmmm....perhaps i explained it wrong, but if u have units of 2 different alignments, this will have non effect to your current heroīs moral stats....coz these things always belong to your heroīs moral, and in summary with other stuff (like arties, special places...) they affect the moral of each unit of your troops.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 30, 2005 08:45 AM |
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Quote:
About moral:
All units from the same alignment: +1 moral
Archangel in group: +1 moral
Opponent has Ghostdragon: -1 moral
Necro unit in your army: -1 moral
Units of 2 different alignments: non effect
Units of 3 different alignments: -1 moral
Units of 4 different alignments: -2 moral
Units of 5-7 different alignments: -3 moral
So just to clarify:
If you are castle and playing with a knight with leadership experted and are not mixing troops, your +3 morale from the skill is not used entirely?
Necro unit in an army lowers morale for evil and good the same? Are two necro units again -1 or -2?
If you have, i.e., crusaders and pit lords (good + evil) your morale is neither positive nor negative?
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rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 30, 2005 09:01 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
In HoMM3 positive morale does not affect the order of movement.
Sorry but this is completely wrong.
...
If creatures get morale in the initiative wave they have to move directly after this wave before the backwave, in the direction they got morale.
Lets say all creatures were pressed on wait, except the archangels. They move and get morale. U decide to wait. Lets assume also the marksmen strike and get morale, and again u decide to wait. So between that initiative wave and the backwave there will have to move the archangels and the marksmen first. And as the Archangels got morale first they have to move before the marksman. After the marksman striked the backchain begins.
So if u get morale in the initiative wave u can decide to be first or second in the backchain simply by pressing wait, strike or defend.
yes, I had a hunch this is so, just wasn't sure though, because rarely you will press wait after you strike and get morale, perhaps with a shooter or a war machine. Thank you for clearing that up.
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angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
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posted March 30, 2005 04:53 PM |
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Quote:
So just to clarify:
If you are castle and playing with a knight with leadership experted and are not mixing troops, your +3 morale from the skill is not used entirely?
In your case, the hero would have +5 moral (+3 for expert moral, +1 for (Arch)angel in troops, +1 for all troops of 1 alignment). For the battle though, only the maximum of +3 moral counts. But if u would visit an empty warriors tomb for example (which gives -3 moral to the hero), the hero would end up with +2 moral in summary (+5 -3)
Quote:
Necro unit in an army lowers morale for evil and good the same? Are two necro units again -1 or -2?
If you have, i.e., crusaders and pit lords (good + evil) your morale is neither positive nor negative?
Evil or good doesnīt matter when referring to moral.
Necro count -1 moral, no matter if u have 1 or 6 stacks.
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Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
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Rainalcar
Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
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posted March 30, 2005 08:31 PM |
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This sums it all up. Thank you all
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