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| Thread: power, stupidity and the letter of the law? | |
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted April 24, 2005 12:23 PM |
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power, stupidity and the letter of the law?
i was happily killing time online when i saw this in the news... and here i ask ...what the **** is wrong with some people? were they simply too drunk from power, just plain stupid or perhaps a sign of our times?
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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tigris
Supreme Hero
Supreme Noobolator
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posted April 24, 2005 12:40 PM |
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lol it's like they say..
when you think you seen it all something like this comes along.
this sounds unreal at first sight, it is a proof of the authority incompetence.As if there was need for another one...
People who are invested in certain leading functions fail to manage a delicate situation, or even a situation that goes beyound their daily routine.
Taylor intended birocracy as a ghood thing, which it was till people started reaching their incompetence level.
The sad part about this is that prolly them bastards will cover the whole thing in a pile of papers and no lesson will be learned out of this.
this is sad..
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 24, 2005 03:33 PM |
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The Little Girl Was Treated Well
I would be much more harsh. The principal and police were too nice. She needed a good hard spanking.
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Roses Are Red And So Am I
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted April 24, 2005 04:41 PM |
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31...32...33...Puke!
Consis, you are much too gentle. I would have taken away the other children's jelly beans, given them all to the disobedient girl, and then made her eat every single jelly bean until she threw up. 
In all seriousness, it is a shame that the responsible individuals here chose such drastic measures. This is obviously an outrageous example. Police should not have been called, while the handcuffs definitely were over-the-top. Still, as I previously addressed in another OSOTM topic, the deeper problem lies within the home, where parents no longer understand how to teach their children respect, proper behavior, and discipline. (Are spankings the answer? I'm not sure, but perhaps as a last resort in some cases a spanking may be warranted.) Regardless, there must be some consequences for a child's bad action (and rewards for good actions), or else there exists no deterrent for the child to alter their poor behavior and bad judgment.
Situations such as this one arise when parents do not fulfill their responsibilities in the home, and then give those responsibilities (such as 'raising' their children and teaching them discipline) to unqualified individuals. In this particular case, the responsible individuals (such as the teacher & police officers) obviously did not understand the consequences of their own actions upon the little girl, nor do they understand the magnitude of the power that they wield.
Thus, the cycle continues...
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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bort
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Discarded foreskin of morality
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posted April 24, 2005 04:48 PM |
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My only question is :
Why was the child not in restraints to begin with?
I'm so sick of parents who think that everybody else thinks their little brat's antics are as cute as they do. I propose the formation of a child rearing colony, preferably an island in shark filled waters where parents are sent with their children until the 2 years after the children finish puberty. This way, people will not be able to inflict their children upon other, more productive members of society.
(note : bort reserves the right to completely change his opinion if/when tiny little borts are running around this world. At that point, bort will claim that the children are our future and must be nurtured/coddled. And oh look, isn't that so cute, little bort spit up on you, and now he's hitting you over the head with a stuffed animal. How adorable. He's going to the most prestigious pre-school you know, from there it's just a hop skip and a jump to Harvard!)
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Drive by posting.
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted April 24, 2005 05:06 PM |
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I have started a poll in another thread which addresses what I see as the point at the heart of this issue - disciplining children.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted April 24, 2005 07:53 PM |
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The core of the issue isn't "diciplining" children at all (at least not "diciplining" as in "beating"). The core is that certain individuals think that they can apply adult rules to children. Sure, spoiled kids are annoying, but handcuffing them and arresting them? Why not restraint coats? Or make it possible for kindergarten employees to use tear gas on misbehaving kids?
Now, I don't know the background story of this little girl, but whether she came from a wealthy home where she'd get everything she pointed at, from a pisspoor split home where she had 5 brothers and sisters competing for their parent's attention, or something inbetween, shouldn't really matter in this case.
5 year olds are 5 year olds. They are not yet socialized into comforming with the norms of society. Sure, they are on their way there, but most 5 year olds are far from it yet.
As for hitting a child being a good way of diciplining a kid...
Well, there are more constructive ways, but those methods take more time and requires more involvement. And I guess not all parents "can" take the time to do all that. But if they can't there's in my opinion a question of whether or not such people should be allowed to have kids in the first place...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted April 24, 2005 11:17 PM |
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Edited By: IYY on 24 Apr 2005
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I've seen the video, and I can't blame the cops. I can only blame the parents. The teacher was trying to calm the child down for a few hours, and the child kept destroying things, and physically assulting the teachers. If a child thinks that this is acceptable behaviour, then parents did something wrong. And the cops? Well, they came after a few hours, after the school called the parents and tried to calm the child down, and did the only logical thing that they could do - restrain the child with handcuffs. They didn't take her to the station or beat her. They just made sure that she wasn't attacking people and breaking things. How is this wrong, people?
What would you have done in the place of the teacher, cop, or even parent? Talking to her and using reason clearly failed. Giving her time also failed. The only other option is trying to physically restrain her and that, unlike handcuffs, is abuse.
I've seen many cases where the American police did insane and morally wrong things, like arrest children for bringing "weapons" to school. This, however, is not one of these cases.
Asmodean seems to think that beating children is related to this. Maybe it is. Maybe the reason this kid thinks that hitting her teacher is acceptable is because she came from a violent home. The parents were supposed to teach her basic manners. This doesn't mean spanking her, but talking to her, and explaining what is acceptable and what isn't.
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 25, 2005 02:38 AM |
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You dont think that a whole bunch of adults cant force a 5-yearold (girl on top of that) to stand still? Not handcuffs and police, damnit!
The girl obviously has some psychological problems, she cant take the complete legal responsibility and go through the "usual procedure" applied to adults in such cases. I dont know about this case, but a child facing with cops, handcuffs, being treated like a criminal at the tender age of 5, could inflict some serious problems in later life.
Though, what will inflict most seriously in later life is the lack domestic culture. You can tell immediately where she's coming from, when you see her mom consulting lawyers (imagine!!!) instead of consulting child pedagogues and psycholigists. My guts turn upside down from such parent types.
After all, schools arent places where you can easily fix spoiled little dictators whose every whish is granted by their parents with snowed up minds. I also dont agree with the past practice when teachers were allowed to even hit their kids (i actually had one hitting teacher (more like granny) when i was 7; such practices only disappeared in our schools as of lately, when the older teachers retired. I remember, she used to hit some of us with the big book with grades in it on the head so strong, that it would bang like a rifle. Thus we called those "rifles".  Also, when someone couldnt do smth academical right, she even hit them until they got it right.  Suffice to say, that a frenzy girl like our heroinne here would stand no chance with my beloved teacher.) Anyway, the teacher absolutely has to have pedagogical means of disciplining their students without the parents coming every day and complaining how their child is "abused". Eventually they grow up to be spoiled egoiistic sadistic parasites, with no sense of respect, basic culture and what not, until of course they burn hard from authorities much later in RL at the first occassion they have to meet one.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 25, 2005 10:51 PM |
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Speaking from Experience
I know I have an unusually placid child. But I have been around plenty of other children. The severity of this child's reactions suggests to me that this is not a discipline problem. I think we may find out that she suffers from some extreme chemical imbalance.
A couple of points. While tantruming is not unusual, extreme tantruming for several hours is highly unusual, except in cases of mental instability.
Second, while it is usually possible to restrain a small child within a few minutes, bodily restraint (using one's body instead of artificial restraints) for prolonged periods of time against intense struggling can lead to severe injury and even suffocation. Having been a state attorney representing both youth services facilities and child abuse cases, I know this can, and does, happen frequently, in cases of prolonged bodily restraint. And I'm here to promise you -- teachers and police alike have been "sensitized" the the dangers of causing such injuries through the use of bodily restraint, by an endless string of lawsuits against them with very bad results.
Third, it may not be unreasonable for the child to have been perceived by the elders in charge as a physical danger -- not only to herself but to others. When a human is experiencing a severe chemical imbalance, not only may they be out of touch with reality, but also frequently exhibit unusual levels of strength. I have known of young children who have bitten off fingers, or left isolated, banged their heads against the wall until they suffered concussions and brain damage.
So just remember, you could instead have been reading an article about how a five-year-old child plunged herself through a second-story window to her death, leading to a news article reading:
SCHOOL'S FAILURE TO NOTIFY LOCAL POLICE AFTER CHILD'S PROLONGED VIOLENT STRUGGLE WITH ADULT AUTHORITIES RESULTS IN HER DEATH.
How outraged would you be then?
Things frequently ain't what the press makes them seem, guys.
BTW – I tend to agree with Svarog’s assessment of the child’s mother filing a lawsuit over this. Such things only tend to worsen the police’ and teachers’ paranoia and uncertainty over what the right thing to do is. Sometimes there are no good solutions.
Just remember, we don’t know the rest of the story…
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I have menopause and a handgun. Any questions?
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 26, 2005 01:37 AM |
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This whole thing makes sense Peacemaker. Although its the first time I hear about this "chemical imbalance"; I usually thought such cases were only due to bad personality.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Consis
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Of Ruby
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posted April 26, 2005 06:14 AM |
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Svarog,
You and I both my friend.....you and I both...
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Roses Are RedAnd So Am I
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 26, 2005 06:01 PM |
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You guys are not alone. Fact is, this is a little known area of research. The psychiatric industry is still resistive to new techniques and many psychologists still believe body chemistry has little to do with behavior problems.
But I worked on a biochemical research project in college working with schizophrenics at Fort Lyon, Colorado (VA Hopsital.) They had one ward treating the patients with natural food supplements and another administering psychotropics. While both patient groups responded, the natural supplement group seemed to be doing almost as well as the other patient group in terms of remissive periods. The response by both groups to manipulation of body chemistry -- either through natural or artificial means -- clearly suggested certain types of mental illness were chemically induced.
Here's a couple of example articles for you guys if you want to look into them:
http://www.nutrition4health.org/NOHAnews/NNW94BiochemistryBehavior.htm
(An exerpt)Quote:
We can now add criminology to the list of sciences stalled by a false belief. In this case, the error is a misguided conviction that violent criminals are created by flawed life circumstances such as poverty, child abuse, bad parenting, and broken homes. This is a nice theory, but time is proving it to be wrong. Unfortunately, most therapists and behavioral researchers devoutly believe in this concept and therefore provide the wrong treatments or follow fruitless lines of research. Until this error is corrected, behavior-disordered children will continue to grow up to be criminals and our nation's horrific rate of crime and violence will persist...
The reality is that most children with terrible behavior were born with chemical imbalances that predispose them to this conduct. Flawed life circumstances can aggravate this condition, but with many the underlying cause is bad chemistry. If imbalances are mild, terrific parenting and counseling may save the day. However, if an imbalance is severe, behavior problems cannot be loved away or overcome with competent parenting. The imbalance itself must be addressed.
http://www.hriptc.org/agressive_behavior.html
Quote:
The medical world has long believed that behavior disorders (ranging for mild temper tantrums to assaultive rages) result from life experiences, such as lack of love, bad parenting, child abuse, broken homes, and poverty. However, over the past decade, scientific research has shown that imbalances in neurotransmitters, their precursors and other biochemicals can significantly contribute to severe behavior disorders and violence.
Several neurotransmitters, amino acids and hormones, such as epinephrine, dopamine, serotonin, and cortisol, have emerged as important regulators of aggressive behavior...
The first definitive results came with a sibling experiment, which tested 24 pairs of brothers living in the same households1. In each sibling pair, one brother had a violent history and the other was an "all-American" boy with excellent behavior. The results showed two distinctive trace-metal patterns in the violent youths, which were not present in their normal brothers. Further studies replicated these results. The conclusion was clear: Most violent children and adults exhibited trace-metal imbalances seldom found in persons with normal behavior. Subsequently, HRI has been involved in testing more than 700 criminals and ex-convicts, and assisted in 30 forensic cases providing much of the early basis for the correlation between violent behavior and body chemistry.
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/article.php?artID=160Quote:
Neurological research has identified over fifty (50) neurotransmitters in the brain. Research also tells us that several neurotransmitters are related to mental health problems – Dopamine, Serotonin, Norepinephrine, and GABA (Gamma Aminobutyric Acid). Too much or too little of these neurotransmitters are now felt to produce psychiatric conditions such as schizophrenia, depression, bi-polar disorder, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and ADHD.
A couple of others:
http://www.newideas.net/zinc_add.htm
http://www.epinions.com/kifm-review-632B-73FBF5E-393D7FA8-prod5
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Svarog
Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
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posted April 27, 2005 01:29 AM |
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But we must also be careful here. Mental illness is one thing, and thats what these researches aim to prove as a consequence of chemical disbalance. However, not all types of anti-social behavior point to mental illness.
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The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.
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Peacemaker
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Peacemaker = double entendre
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posted April 27, 2005 07:13 PM |
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Correct, Svarog. They're still trying to sort the two different types out. There isn't a lot of certainty in this field yet because it is so new. But there does seem to be a direct correlation between fine metal imbalances (e.g. zinc) and violent, antisocial behavior. That's not to say it's the only cause, as you point out.
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