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| Thread: The Nomad Camp - alternative city idea to Sylath worshippers of Ranaar |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 13, 2006 04:16 AM |
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Did you consider possible terain bonuses for the actual camp, if it is adjacent to rivers, mountains, forests, etc? I mean as a nomadic people I would think they would be able to use their natural suroundings as a supportive defense. Kind of like the Natives and gorilla warfare. Also, I think it would be cool since they are a mobile camp that we take it is taken the other way. Yes their town is deconstructed so it's not all the support it there. But in a way, part of the town is also always with them. I was thinking perhaps they get somesort of portable, yet less effective, moat or turret.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 13, 2006 05:25 AM |
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Quote:
minor problem I am thinking of...
The growth rate chart seem a bit strange... as it is uncertain when you will build the creature production building. The week period should be depended to when you build that production building, and not to the universal calendar. Also why does it decrease?
The weeks refer to the number of weeks lapsed after the faction settles down in a new location. The creature growth are extrapolated, such that the earliest that you can get the tier 5 and tier 6 creatures is on week 2, and the earliest you can get tier 7 creature is on week 3. If you have built the creature dwelling later than the stipulated, I think you just look at the chart to determine the growth in that particular week.
Example, if you built the tier 3 dwelling on week 5, the creature growth is 20.
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One part of where it might be not very useful (unless I am reading it wrong) is that you can not build town structures while on the move (right?) If so, it would very limited its use on earlier stage of a vs. game.
Strategically, you can stay in a particular location for about 5 weeks before the population dwindles against your favour. So if you move before that, you can actually be ahead in creature growth as compared to other factions. And the fact that you can be constantly on the move, your town location is always an unknown. Particularly after your trails are hidden. How often when you played a multiplayer map where you are rushed by another player because he knows exactly where your town is?
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Also it would be good in a randomly generated map, but if it is a user/dev-made map, this function seem less balance. Also since the terrain change seem less frequent (usually a whole map is in one theme), that you would have to move a long distance before the terrain would change, that also cuts down the feastiblity of moving, espcially on a smaller map.
There are no requirement that you must change to another terrain. The only requirement is the new camp must be at least 20 squares from another town. And probably from the old camp as well (this was not a listed requirement?). So there is actually a lot of advantage playing this faction.
Correct me if I am wrong, Alc.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2006 08:36 PM |
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You are very correct in what you say, Cantaresq. I have not been very specific in my conditions for how far you have to move etc. because I have no was to give a qualified guess on that in order to make it ballanced. (In fact, I don't even know whether this will work or not, I just think it's an interesting thought-experiment.) As a guess, I'd say you should be able to reach a new place to settle within 3-4 days - so that breaking up time, in which case you have no city, should be limited to a week (you can, of course, always choose to move farther). Also notice, that when you break camp, all buildings are demolished when you move camp - the new camp starts with no buildings!
There should be no conditions that force you to move to a different type of terrain, just the constraint that you might be better off by doing it. Living on barren terraines will meen moving more frequently, which will meen higher ressource requirements (because even though you take ressources with you, a certain amount is wasted each time). That also means that overall ressource costs should probably be lower for this town than for the other towns - I have not made any calculations on that part as yet.
And to anwer your other question Actionjack > The "explanation" for breaking camp would be that they need to move to new places in order to find food for themselves and their livestock.
As for the terrain bonuses - I'm a bit reluctant on that part, because the dependance on map terrain is going to be very tricky to ballance - making it seem ballanced to this point was very tricky, and I think if you add further bonuses, the town might end up being unplayable on certain types of terrain - which wouldn't do.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 13, 2006 08:47 PM |
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Change all human units to centaurs and it might look like very interesting centaur town proposal 
Keep all other faction aspects, they sound good 
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 13, 2006 10:17 PM |
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The idea of introducing Centaur units actually occured to me - it's not a bad one, in terms of the Heroes V universe, my only problem is that these units are very much Native American in their origin, and well, the Native americans weren't Centaurs.
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Anyway, here's a sceme for an alternative Skill system for this town. This system should focus less on map aspects of the game (which some players thought wasn't that appropriate, which was probably a good point) and more on combat features.
Class Skill - Terrain Knowledge
Basic:Select 1 terrain type as Familiar Terrain. Hero must have won 5 battles on terrain in order to apply for this terrain type.
Advanced:Select 2 terrain types as Familiar Terrain.
Expert:Select 3 terrain types as Familiar Terrain.
Ultimate:Select 4 terrain types as Familiar Terrain.
Familiar Terrain bonuses: Units fighting on a terrain type that's familiar will get +2 Attack and +2 Defence. Also, this terrain type will apply for the Familiar Ground subskill of Logistics.
There should be a building like the Avenger's Guild (Mapmaker's Guild?) which you'd have to build in order to select terrain types.
Class Abilities
Guerrilla Warfare: Further +2 Attack and +2 Defence on familiar terrain.
Trail Reading: +10 % Movement and -25 % Terrain Penalty on familiar terrain. Stacks with Logistics and Pathfinding bonusses.
Stealth: Hero leaves no army trail on familiar terrain. All units gain +1 combat speed on familiar terrain - bonus stacks with Familiar Ground bonus.
Element Of Surprise (ultimate ability): When Hero attacks, all units gain +0.5 ATB value at start of battle, and have their Initiative increased by 1. Also, Hero may choose to cast one spell during the Tactics phase (which will reduce his ATB value including above bonus to 0). Requires: Logistics > Pathfinding > sub, Familiar Ground; Attack > Tactics > sub, sub; Leadership > Diplomacy > sub, sub; Sorcery > sub, sub; and Terrain Knowledge > Guerilla Warfare, Trail Reading, Stealth.
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Hit me with you comments and suggestions.
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crepus
Adventuring Hero
Nuclear Power Plant
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posted October 14, 2006 01:00 AM |
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Love the alternative class ability, way much better than the original one. I do find the camping theme a bit difficult. My guess is many players will curse when they need to relocate to be able to get new troops several days later.
A suggestion for an alternate ability for one of the low level troops:
Stealth attack, letting the troop choose an enemy to attack and then dissapear from battlefield as they camouflage themselves while moving towards the enemy. Pretty much like the Griffin Battle Dive but they keep their track on the prey, no matter where it might have moved. With the weak defences of the Camp, this could be a good ability to attack enemies while they still wait to tear down the walls.
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Mater tua criceta fuit, et Pater tuo
redoluit bacarum sambucus.
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 14, 2006 01:01 AM |
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I dont think there would be problem for centaur culture in h5 to be similar to native american culture from universe vulgaris..
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 14, 2006 01:49 AM |
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Quote:
Love the alternative class ability, way much better than the original one. I do find the camping theme a bit difficult. My guess is many players will curse when they need to relocate to be able to get new troops several days later.
They are probably more usefull the new ones, yes. And about the Camp moving - yes, it'll be a mixed blessing. I don't think it'll actually ever find its way into the game - the idea of stagnant towns is simply too rooted in Heroes, and the possibility of destroying a town entirely is also against the game. But as a thought experiment, I think it would make this faction very unique.
Quote:
A suggestion for an alternate ability for one of the low level troops:
Stealth attack, letting the troop choose an enemy to attack and then dissapear from battlefield as they camouflage themselves while moving towards the enemy. Pretty much like the Griffin Battle Dive but they keep their track on the prey, no matter where it might have moved. With the weak defences of the Camp, this could be a good ability to attack enemies while they still wait to tear down the walls.
That's a good idea I think. It would be suitable for the Trailfinder (level 1 unit) to make him usefull in combat and less vulnerable, and would make sense with the theme of the town - of course, the unit should not make double damage as the Griffin (that's overpowered) - but one might consider giving No Retaliation on the stealth attack (or a X % chance of critical hit for cripling strike and no retaliation - might also give some other bonus like resetting ATB or decreasing movement for 1 turn).
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 15, 2006 01:50 AM |
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OK I wouldn't see a problem with the Native American town becoming a centuar town. As far as I can tell Centaurs are very nomadic in Hereos and pretty tribal too. If anything it would make the town mix better with game. I think a centaur faction would be sweet, and I'd definetly at least try to play as it.
also I would like to point out. My strategy for fighting this town would be to try and rush the camp while the player is a distance away. After taking his camp, I would then destroy it. End Game. That is the problem, the player would automatically loose if he wondered to far away. Especially with AI the way it is now, computers always rush when they can beat you to your castle.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2006 03:12 AM |
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Quote:
OK I wouldn't see a problem with the Native American town becoming a centuar town. As far as I can tell Centaurs are very nomadic in Hereos and pretty tribal too. If anything it would make the town mix better with game. I think a centaur faction would be sweet, and I'd definetly at least try to play as it.
also I would like to point out. My strategy for fighting this town would be to try and rush the camp while the player is a distance away. After taking his camp, I would then destroy it. End Game. That is the problem, the player would automatically loose if he wondered to far away. Especially with AI the way it is now, computers always rush when they can beat you to your castle.
Hmmm ... that is indeed a very valid problem. Would have to figure out some solution to that in order to make the game work. It might work if you, instead of destroying a camp on the move, simply conquer the camp - in that way, the number of cities in the game would be constant, and there would be no difference to other factions in that respect.
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cantaresg
Known Hero
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posted October 15, 2006 12:22 PM |
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Quote:
Quote:
OK I wouldn't see a problem with the Native American town becoming a centuar town. As far as I can tell Centaurs are very nomadic in Hereos and pretty tribal too. If anything it would make the town mix better with game. I think a centaur faction would be sweet, and I'd definetly at least try to play as it.
also I would like to point out. My strategy for fighting this town would be to try and rush the camp while the player is a distance away. After taking his camp, I would then destroy it. End Game. That is the problem, the player would automatically loose if he wondered to far away. Especially with AI the way it is now, computers always rush when they can beat you to your castle.
Hmmm ... that is indeed a very valid problem. Would have to figure out some solution to that in order to make the game work. It might work if you, instead of destroying a camp on the move, simply conquer the camp - in that way, the number of cities in the game would be constant, and there would be no difference to other factions in that respect.
But if you conquer a camp on the move, does it mean that the other players get to make camp as well? Its possible, but perhaps they lose the bonus of being able to build the buildings twice as fast. And they cannot break camp either, making a camp useful only to the nomads. That makes it very pointless for me to conquer a nomadic camp, unless I want to finish the game, since conquering a camp too late will mean that I will not be able to recruit any creatures from the camp.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 15, 2006 02:58 PM |
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If it should work, the town should be the same for everyone - even to the point that all players can brake camp and move to other sites, if they concur a Camp city - either stationary or on the move. The conquerer should also gain at least some of the ressources from a conquered moving camp - albeit some part might be lost during the combat. All in all, the Camp should be just like any other city in the game, with the exception that it can be moved - and one would therefore also have to make it so that a camp could never be destroyed (because the number of cities always is constant in the game).
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yasmiel
Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
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posted October 15, 2006 11:01 PM |
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Only problem with centaurs would be that there would be more logic for their units to be 2x2... and faction full of 2x2 units cant be fully deployed 
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 15, 2006 11:44 PM |
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Quote:
Only problem with centaurs would be that there would be more logic for their units to be 2x2... and faction full of 2x2 units cant be fully deployed
That is also true, perhaps if they all were 2x2 units but instead had some smaller units mixed in. Or somehow it was logical for them to even be 2X1 units. But I don't see that working out. Maybe if they simply were given more tactics space.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 16, 2006 07:01 AM |
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I actually think the idea of 2x1 (long) units would be perfectly logical. I never understood that Nival didn't include this feature for some of their units (Champions, Dark Knights, etc.), but this could be a nice reason to introduce it.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 16, 2006 10:33 PM |
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Exactly the only issue is creature that are already horse like, such a nightmare, Paladin are 2x2 they would have to be altered to 2x1 or there would have to be a good explanation why centuars are 2x1 instead of 2x2.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 17, 2006 07:43 AM |
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Maybe the were better at keeping the slim line. 
No, I don't really see that as a problem. Paladins are level 6 units and are mounted on great War horses. The Centaur units - in this line-up - would be level 1-4 units, and would be generally slighter creatures. I don't think it would be any problem to have them 1x2 and the Paladins remain 2x2. Also, the 1x2 unit could be a unique feature of this city.
EDIT > That would also add another usefull skill - Attack > Tactics > Improved Tactics (make up a name) that allows you to place units in a 4-square wide field - allowing you to place long units in front of long units.
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WilX
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 19, 2006 10:07 PM |
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actionjack
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted October 20, 2006 01:17 AM |
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I like the centaurs, and idea of a centaurs faction sound interesting (thought centaur was never a big race in HoMM, I think). Fitting them with a amercian-indea tribal theme would fit well too.
Minor concern would be: won't the lv 7 unit needed to be change? As they won't really be the "free people who worship dragon of sky".... If so, what lv 7 can be replace?
Also someone should give it a try to write a Centaur town too. Would be fun to see that.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted October 20, 2006 02:13 PM |
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It is correct that we have no mention of a Centaur race, and therefore don't know whether the worship the Dragon of Air or not. That leaves the possibility open, however, and therefore we wouldn't necessarily have to abandon the idea. If somebody had suggestions for a better level 7, that would of course be interesting as well. I know some fans would have the Thunderbird back as level 7. Personally, I'm not that keen on the Thunderbird as top dog, but well ... each his own taste. It would be a possibility.
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