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| Thread: Necro Nerfing ++ |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted March 15, 2007 01:06 AM |
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Actually under many circumstances I will choose to raise a very large army 150-200 ghosts for a final combat vs another player.
These little monsters can really cause a problem for your opponent especially with raise dead and a nice big phoenix to back them up.
But I agree they are easily killed by magic, but when facing a might hero or faction.. oh yes a swarm of specters is something to be feared.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 15, 2007 09:16 AM |
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Spectres still deal poor damage (contrary to 1.0 ones which actually did nice damage), and necro's 0 ATT obviously won't help here.. Perhaps if there was a ghost specialist available..
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted March 15, 2007 01:13 PM |
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Edited by executor at 13:13, 15 Mar 2007.
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Yes, spectres in 1.0 were great  . And endless revival by raise dead with their low hp... simply sweet.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 15, 2007 10:18 PM |
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Edited by Darkeye at 22:19, 15 Mar 2007.
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Could someone please explain what determines the creatures available with Necromancy after a fight?
It is quite annoying that you are offered other creatures than those 7 units you have in your army. Why couldn't you be offered creatures already in your army.
And does anyone know how many DE-points Tomb of the Lost contributes with? (I was lucky and got it on my first 2.1 necro-game  )
(Doomforge - What have you done with your Avatar  )
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted March 16, 2007 12:03 AM |
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Quote:
Could someone please explain what determines the creatures available with Necromancy after a fight?
You have several options:
- It's in the 2.1 Manual available in the sticky in the top of the forum.
- You can look at the simple charts in this thread.
- You can look at the more advanced charts, for instance this one avaiable in larger and smaller size.
There are also other similar charts floating around.
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What will happen now?
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 16, 2007 08:03 AM |
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Quote:
(Doomforge - What have you done with your Avatar )
Everyone needs a change from time to time.. 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 16, 2007 03:29 PM |
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Quote:
Spectres still deal poor damage (contrary to 1.0 ones which actually did nice damage), and necro's 0 ATT obviously won't help here.. Perhaps if there was a ghost specialist available..
Oh yeah man, +1 min/max damage was imbalancing great! The new ones have much more HP and I think they are indeed stronger
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Darkeye
Promising
Famous Hero
of the Deep
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posted March 16, 2007 06:37 PM |
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Thanks for the explaination.
I was a bit confused though when I was offered the choice between 2 vampire lord or/and 4 vampires after defeating 60 mino-guards
On the chart it says plague zombies.
Another very annoying thing is when all 7 slots are taken, you are not able to split the raised stacks and may not be able to get the right (amount) of creatures.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted March 16, 2007 06:54 PM |
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Quote:
Oh yeah man, +1 min/max damage was imbalancing great!
ridiculously, yes! It gave them actually quite a decent boost (check the charts). even +1 dam counts a lot for low-level creatures when massed, and that's what necromancy gives you, right? A mass!
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted March 16, 2007 06:57 PM |
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Quote:
ridiculously, yes! It gave them actually quite a decent boost (check the charts). even +1 dam counts a lot for low-level creatures when massed, and that's what necromancy gives you, right? A mass!
Yes, but you can't compare the old Spectre with the New Necromancy
And this one (the new Spectre) also has much more HP, which means more damage -> the more it stays on the battlefield, the more the damage, right?
The Ghost's damage was indeed severly nerfed, but the Spectre's not really. Ghosts do pathetic damage, I agree but not Spectres!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted March 16, 2007 07:03 PM |
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More useful and durable now so they can get to the enemy casters before dying or become useful blockers. Their older version either died in one hit or the attacks kept missing for some turns...Chances weren't in their favour but when they avoided hits the retaliation was painfull 
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Nemira
Adventuring Hero
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posted October 22, 2007 06:59 PM |
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Hey guys! I started to play necro more often, but due to necro mechanics am confused by some things.
1st, when do you upgrade dwellings, and which ones you focus on in early game? let's say week 1-2. As examlpe am never sure if to upgrade liches or vamps or ghosts 1st <.< Or save to upgrade wraiths.. Or ignore all upgrades and try to go for dragons?
It seems necro can do pretty much good creeping with his starting units, even not upgraded because of MoTN and some summoning spells
Also what are the natural skill pick-ups apart from summoning / dark magic? Logistics if offered should be nice, then attack or defence? Luck? Sorcery? or go for 3 schools of magic if offered? Light / Destruction? I know necro magic guild favors dark / summoning spells, but cold death as example has preqs in destruction ^^
And meh, seems necro creeping speed is no where near Nur from academy <.<
As you can't build mage guild lvl 1 on 1st or 2nd day on heroic as you will want your skelly archers no?
Please englighten :>
-Nemi
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Nirual
Famous Hero
Imbued Ballista
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posted October 22, 2007 07:08 PM |
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zombies and ghosts are fine unupgraded, but skeletons should be upgraded asap. Preferably a few warriors to shield the archers. The most bothersome early on is the large need of sulfur for the pillar of bones (which you'll want early, best near the end of the first week since building it only expands the pool, not filling it) and the growth booster for skeletons.
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In ur base killing ur doods... and raising them as undeads.
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HartZa
Known Hero
watchout graveyards!
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posted October 22, 2007 09:49 PM |
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Bah..none of your aren´t talking about new skill system at here. First I thought that necromancer could really benefit from new skills for everyone can get but then I saw it and was a little disapointed. Other factions benefit from this greatly(not all) but necromancers just got nerfed as you said Doomforge on your treads. DE is to low and necros army still remains a weak. Since they are slow the opponent will ALWAYS(almost) get first hits on your troops. It just more wiser to just press defend button and wait for hero to cast frenzy or blindess. Puppet master may sounds good in paper but in nowdays it usually END before you can actually command that unit. Because of this I see frenzy and blindess WAY better spells than puppet master. So we come to this point where necromancers relies on their spells. Since now almost everyone can get eternal light and counterspell(ok for inferno) this means dark age for necro players. Nival should give some new perks for necromancers like Eternal Darkness with would be vice versa for eternal light.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted October 22, 2007 10:40 PM |
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Lol, did you bother to check the posting dates of the posts in this topic? Most are from the start of this year. Only the two above yours are from today, the rest is far older than TotE. Hard to talk about something that didn't exist at the time of posting .
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 22, 2007 10:44 PM |
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De low..? Not likely. As for puppet master try it with power 30 and you decrease enemy initiative around 10% so you act instantly with the unit most of the time. All it takes is enlightenment that is a must anyway. Yep weakened but it was imbalanced before tribes unless the map was large and could not be rushed.
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Slim-Sleeper
Hired Hero
Lazy
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posted October 23, 2007 12:22 AM |
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"Prologue"
Lots of nice posts here (I mean.. 3 QP's?)!
And although its old I still think its quite "up to date" since its still talk about the DE.. DE this, DE that, nerf it, raise it, drop it. But how about.. We think outside the box a bit and change the whole idea about gaining it! Here we talk about gainage per lvl, constant DE, national DE, individual DE, and so on.
How the initial DE are distributed are not THAT important (due to my thoughts that I will describe soon), but according to my thoughts I think, just think, that individual would be the best.
Initial Dark Energy
As said, it’s not that important, but let me share my thoughts. A runner cant "buy" stamina, he must gain it by hard training and "levelling" in the field of running! He can’t buy a membership in a gym and then increase the stamina by 10%. Nor can he "loan" some stamina from another athlete. No, he must gain it himself. That’s just a picture, what I mean is that a Necromancer is like a runner! In the sport called "Necromancy" its all about the experience and skill. He must have animated a few lads before..! He can’t just all the sudden become very good at it!
So I think that the initial DE, and the gainage in DE should be individual. For one reason, its the most natural I think (explained above), for a second reason, it encourages to train more then 1 main hero!
Also, as said before, how the gainage in total DE per hero (whether it be per lvl, per skill, per tomato, per potato) don’t matter too much, one of you numberguys (no offence at all, I would indeed love to have such competence within that field! and your doing a great job by the way) can figure out how the gainage of TOTAL DE per hero should be distributed.
However, what I want share my thoughts about is how to REPLENISH the Dark Energy!
Replenishable Dark Energy
Just think about it. What if you COULD buy it? No, not TOTAL DE, but just REPLENISH your DE! So you may think, "Buy? With what?", no, I'm not thinking about gold, or crystals, or gems, or anything "material". No, I'm thinking about (and yes, hold your breath a bit), to buy Dark Energy with Mana! I mean, mana is "the food of magic", as Dark Enery is "the food of Necromancy"! So why not be able to "convert" mana into Dark Energy as you convert the living into dead!?
Now you may think "Bah, just another imba thought that a mad necro fan came up with to make the necro even MORE powerful!". But now, I will silence you.
How about nerfing the whole DE!? Provoke the world of Necromancers by nerfing their very powers to a humiliating level!? BUT giving them the ability to REPLENISH their Dark Energy whenever they want!
Now. How to get mana... I wonder.. The Necromancer can get unlimited mana.. right?
How to gain mana as a Necromancer
Lets skip the obvious for just a second and view the alternatives.
The mana well (sorry, can’t remember the name): This fully replenishes the mana of the hero, BUT it reduces the movementpoints by 75%! This means: If you are lucky enough to have a nice tasting neutral stack just next to a well you can exploit the chance. Use the well, buy the DE, kill the stack, and raise your fav unit.
Another way to "gain" mana is simply by having enough of it in the first place! Through enlightenment and intelligence you can get a lot more mana then usual, and this will enlarge the usage of this skill a lot! IE, a high mana also ensures a high DE!
Then, to the grand final:
The Mark Of The Necromancer, a sick and twisted skill that lets you drain the pain of other creatures and use their dismay for your own pleasure (that would be mana).
Think about the possibilities! Start of a new week, full DE (as usual), you smear the blood of a favourite stack of neutrals across the beautiful environment of Asha and puzzle together their bones to make a little killingforce of your own. Tata! Fresh out of DE.
The next step now would be to spend your mana on DE, then scout for a less favourable stack of neutrals. Smear their blood, litter the world, save the whales, no wait a minute! We forgot a thing! The MotN!!! Cast it on the neutrals, THEN smear their blood all over Asha like a child smears pink paint all over the brand new family car. Viola! Brand new mana to exchange for DE!
The dance goes on, accumulate enough DE through mana and go fight another favourite stack and raise a new little fighting force.
You may think "IMBA!!”? naah.. not if we nerf them!
Nerfing the entire Dark Energy system due to Replenishing Dark Energy
What would you rather like? 100 dollars every week, or get a chance to actually get A LOT more if you work for it? So lets nerf the whole Dark Energy program. Say we use the old model that Alcibiades made (the one in the picture), but we nerf it.
(Lvl means lvl of the hero, bas-adv-exp-ult means basic, advanced, expert and ultimate necromancy skill, the numbers, say 2,46 means Dark Energy, the rounding (upwards or downwards) are due to normal math rules.)
Lvl 1: 1 bas, 1,35 adv, 1,8225 exp, 2,46 ult
Lvl 2: 1,35 bas, 1,82 adv, 2,46 exp, 3,32 ult
Lvl 3: 1,82 bas, 2,46 adv, 3,32 exp, 4,48 ult
Lvl 3: 2,46 bas, 3,32 adv, 4,48 exp, 6,05 ult
Lvl 4: 3,32 bas, 4,48 adv, 6,05 exp, 8,17 ult
Lvl 5: 4,48 bas, 6,05 adv, 8,17 exp, 11,03 ult
Lvl 10: 20,10 bas, 27,14 adv, 36,64 exp, 49,46 ult
Lvl 15: 90,15 bas, 121,71 adv, 164,31 exp, 221,82 ult
Lvl 20: 404,27 bas, 545,76 adv, 736,78 exp, 994,66 ult.
Now, you may have noticed that I simply multiplied the base value (1) by 1,35. Don’t know what this stuff is called, but I assume its math related.. As you may see we have an exponentional curve here, the gainage from lvl 19 to 20 is a lot more then the gainage from lvl 1 to lvl 2. But the amount of experience points are also raised. You need more xp to get from lvl 19 to 20, then from lvl 1 to 2!
We may "nerf" it even more.. If you put 1,30 as multiplier (witch don’t seem much less then 1,35) you get this as lvl 20.
Lvl 20: 146 bas, 190 adv, 247 exp, 321 ult.
Whether its 1,30 or 1,35 or some other number that seem more balanced (a lot of testing with Replenishing Dark Energy would need to be done before actually deciding this number) is really out of the question, the point is that the INITIAL amount of Dark Energy SHOULD be nerfed, but we should also gain an opportunity to REPLENISH the Dark Energy.
But what is the cost?
The cost to "Buy" Dark Energy with mana
This is another nut to crack for feisty testing teams and numberguys.
1 = 1? You start with 10 mana, if that is 10 DE then that is 2 skell archers (aint it 4 for one? so 2 makes 8, I might be wrong..). However, if you boost your mana to say.. 100? Then 100 mana means 100 DE, and that again means 25 skelli archers (if the DE cost for 1 of them is 4, whom I thought it was). Should it be 1 mana = 2 DE?
OR! You could perhaps make it equally exponential! So that say a Lvl 1 with basic necro need 10 mana to buy 2 DE? And a lvl 10 with exp gets it even off with 1 mana per DE? And so on?
IF we do it as last proposed (exponential Dark Energy exchangerate due to Lvl and skill) you may end up in replenishing more DE then you need? If your total is 200, and you replenish 250, then you still only get 200!
So, can we choose how much DE to buy, or do we say that 1 buy is 1 buy, you spend your mana and get your DE, no matter what the exchangerate is.
We could even make it less.. um.. "useable" and use it like that Dungeon skill that replenish your mana but you spend 1 day of movement. So by replenishing your DE you spend all your mana and all your movement for 1 day?
Well, at a high level you could raise on day 1 and then gain some mana. Then day 2 spend movement to get more DE. Day 3 raise and gain mana, day 4 spend movement, gain DE, day 5 raise and gain mana, day 6 spend movement, gain DE, day 7 raise and gain mana. And viola, we're back on day one again!
It would be boring, indeed! But is it thinkable?
Ending words (yeah, finally)
The conclusion is then as follows:
The initial DE, I don’t know. The exchangerate on mana -> DE, don’t know. Whatever exponential curves on either matter, I don’t know. Its too early to throw some numbers in the air and win the nobles price in balancing a game.. It needs to be tested.
BUT! IF my "system" on the Dark Energy subject works, then the good players would benefit more then the poor players (since planning, good creeping, and so on would make you benefit more), and that would make the tournaments more fun(?)!
Please share your thoughts about mine, and please, don’t take me for some self pronounced know-all or something. Its just thoughts and thoughts are not even proven to exist! : P
Think about it huh.. to be able to replenish your DE whenever you want.. tempting eyh?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 23, 2007 02:19 AM |
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Edited by Elvin at 02:19, 23 Oct 2007.
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Quote:
So I think that the initial DE, and the gainage in DE should be individual.
That would probably result in those powergamers playing necro with multiple heroes and you having to wait more than half an hour per turn...Some people already play 20-30 mins per turn I wouldn't want them to be encouraged to use more secondaries and win fights with easy-to-get firetrap.
Quote:
How about nerfing the whole DE!? Provoke the world of Necromancers by nerfing their very powers to a humiliating level!? BUT giving them the ability to REPLENISH their Dark Energy whenever they want!
Sounds impractical on many levels. Having it as it is is simpler than having to replenish it periodically.
Quote:
Another way to "gain" mana is simply by having enough of it in the first place! Through enlightenment and intelligence you can get a lot more mana then usual, and this will enlarge the usage of this skill a lot! IE, a high mana also ensures a high DE!
Knowledge is still at 15%. Why make a complex system that not only requires accurate placing(up to 25% far from stack) but also drains your only strength - mana? Which you often don't have and really need for creeping. Even so how would you replenish mana? Motn got a reasonable nerf and you cannot go around harvesting mana. Or would you waste your valuable movement more than twice per week and face a hero with a crazy level advantage even if you have more army?
I have played the new necro and both starting de points and de scaling per level works pretty fine. It's enough to raise what you want without getting too powerful - if you decrease it and have it regenerate it would mean that you can raise less from the unit you actually want. Where you'd be able to raise 10 liches you'd raise less and then raise a few other neutrals as a (poor)compensation.
Kudos for the thinking, you have done some good work but I fear it would disrupt the gameplay too much for my liking. Heroes is fun because it still maintains a simplicity.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Slim-Sleeper
Hired Hero
Lazy
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posted October 23, 2007 05:09 PM |
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Thanks alot for your reply Elvin.
I just thought of it as a weird idea, and I guess it was still just weird : )
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted October 23, 2007 05:20 PM |
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I am a fan of simplicity for the most part  Many ideas have potential but not all are practical unless it's for conversational purposes
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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