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| Thread: Jedi rule of no attachment + having kids? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Zenofex
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posted December 28, 2015 08:49 PM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 20:50, 28 Dec 2015.
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Neraus said:
But at least in LotR there is no question on who's the bad guy and the good guy. The grey area is totally absent and there isn't that much space for it. I mean, how can somebody think Morgoth or Sauron are the good guys or the lesser evil after seeing what they do and bring.
On the other hand in Star Wars it's not done so well, leading to inverting the sides, or at least ascribing a grey morality to the universe, something that in LotR is much more difficult.
There is no grey morality in Star Wars. Of all characters, only Boba Fett doesn't have any clear alignment and appears to work only for himself - and he's not even a secondary character despite his off-line popularity (I haven't seen the new movie yet, don't know if he's there or what's his role, if any). Darth Vader clearly stays with the "bad guys" until the very end when he suddenly switches sides, allegedly after a long internal struggle rooted back in Episode V or even earlier if you think (too much) about it - there's nothing grey about him as he transforms from unscrupulous "I find your lack of faith disturbing" choke-'em-all villain into a 100% hero who ultimately kills the biggest villain and dies a dramatic death - all this in flash. No fence-sitters among the rest (Lendo Calrissian is a good guy with smaller balls than the other good guys, nothing conflicting about him really).
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted December 28, 2015 10:17 PM |
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Yes, I have to say that I can't call it grey morality, there's a clear light side and dark side, and while the Jedi in the prequel world weren't saints, the Sith were made out to be clear villains as soon as they got into power.
No matter what Vader's motivation was, I can't call him morally grey.
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Elvin
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posted December 28, 2015 11:13 PM |
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Zenofex said:
there's nothing grey about him as he transforms from unscrupulous "I find your lack of faith disturbing" choke-'em-all villain into a 100% hero who ultimately kills the biggest villain and dies a dramatic death - all this in flash.
I wouldn't exactly call that a hero transformation. He just saved his son and overthrew(pun intended) his oppressor. I wouldn't call that unrealistic.
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Blizzardboy
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posted December 28, 2015 11:17 PM |
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If something similar has happened in real life before, then it's not unrealistic.
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artu
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posted December 28, 2015 11:25 PM |
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My son's landlord was constantly raising the rent, so I threw him off the balcony.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted December 28, 2015 11:38 PM |
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Vader's always a villain. The fact that he killed the Emperor to save Luke after being merciless to many other people that he didn't care about doesn't make him a "good guy", just a father that didn't want to see his son killed or figuratively destroying himself.
But it was enough to free him from the influence of the Dark Side... at least in the original ending. With Star Wars Episode VII, it didn't feel quite like that anymore.
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Elvin
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posted December 28, 2015 11:53 PM |
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Lukas wanted a happy happy ending. A pity because it could have been so much more interesting.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted December 28, 2015 11:56 PM |
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I guess he had the right to have what ending he wanted. I can just hope that after two more movies, after VII, he will put this universe to rest.
And please, no more corny romance like most of the time in the prequels. 
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Pawek_13
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posted December 29, 2015 12:49 AM |
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Elvin said:
Lukas wanted a happy happy ending. A pity because it could have been so much more interesting.
Funny thing is that Gary Kurtz's ending, the one where Leia has to deal with politics without Han by her side and Luke going on exile is the one that became canon - only after Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side. Imagine how prequels may have looked like if Kurtz was there to balance Lucas...
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blizzardboy
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posted December 29, 2015 05:07 AM |
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Zenofex
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posted December 29, 2015 07:19 AM |
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Edited by Zenofex at 07:21, 29 Dec 2015.
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Elvin said:
I wouldn't exactly call that a hero transformation. He just saved his son and overthrew(pun intended) his oppressor. I wouldn't call that unrealistic.
Well yeah, while 5 minutes earlier he was deflecting the attacks against the oppressor and trying to convert the same son to the Dark Side™, nearly succeeding. Vader was turned into a confused prick in the prequel trilogy, the original movies did a nice job portraying him as a decisive and competent villain with just a little drama in the background to make him a tool for the resolution of the primary conflict - which may not even be Lukas' original intention for him, in Episode IV there isn't a slightest hint that Luke and Vader are related and even that Vader is Anakin, I suspect this "twist" appeared later.
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Neraus
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posted December 29, 2015 10:01 AM |
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@Zenofex
Just to clarify, I meant that you can change who's the good side and the bad side, something that cannot be done in LotR.
That's why I said that the moral absolutist view is done badly in Star Wars, the Empire are actually the good guys and the rebels are terrorists, while the movies say the opposite things.
All in all the view of the bright and dark sides of the force are too Manichean to imply a neutral force, so logically the Sith led Galactic empire should be the evil side, right?
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Drakon-Deus
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posted December 29, 2015 10:27 AM |
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if Episode IV had been all there ever was, then I doubt anyone would have a reason to think Luke and Darth Vader were related. All we know from that movie is that Vader killed Luke's father.
In my opinion, the Jedi and Sith are two sides of the same coin. Sith are the "evil Empire" because that's how things go with Hollywood, most of the time they have to point a large flashy sign at the good and bad guys.
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Maurice
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posted December 29, 2015 10:46 AM |
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One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. Sith are for the most part egoistic and only care about what furthers their own agenda. Anyone standing in their way is sure to incur their wrath, not rarely with lethal consequences. Jedi on the other hand would sacrifice themselves to help others, without thinking about it. Help those in need, who are otherwise unable to stand up against the challenges they face.
And yet, it would have been nice if the prequels had explored the other side a bit more: zealotry among the Jedi, which is arguably bad as well, as well as what Palpatine mentioned about Darth Plagieus the Wise, how he found out how to keep the people around him from dieing, apparently healing them or stopping the advance of age. Those could be considered good things.
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Drakon-Deus
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Qapla'
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posted December 29, 2015 10:51 AM |
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Jedi are a cult, same as the Sith. Only that the Sith are more themselves as individuals, which I like.
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Neraus
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posted December 29, 2015 11:02 AM |
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This ambiguity is good when people ponder and decide what is their favourite side, but I feel that in the prospect of the movies it kinda ruins the heroic tale of Luke Skywalker, if there is the doubt that he is damaging the order of the galaxy.
We saw the evil part of the Sith when Palpatine took power with a coup, but, what if that is a Machiavellian way to govern well a galaxy? I remember reading this:
"The empire are the bad guys because they bombed the princess' home planet, but what if that planet was planning to carpet bomb an highly populated planet?" (Highly paraphrased, but you get the point)
If the empire were the good guys, then Luke's story would be the story of a misguided lad that took down an empire because he was brainwashed by his sister.
Such a thing, I think, is impossible in LotR (I'm gonna milk this comparison a lot) since you can't sympathize with Morgoth, as he was ruining the world since its creation.
It would make the movies a lot more mature in theme, but is it appropriate for Star Wars? Who knows, but it's still entertaining to think these things.
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ANTUDO
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Elvin
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posted December 29, 2015 11:06 AM |
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That and the happy extermination of those that don't stand with them. Or the occasional murder of their master. Jolly good fellows otherwise.
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Drakon-Deus
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posted December 29, 2015 11:07 AM |
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Well, jedi want to kill Sith too. And anyone who doesn't follow their politics. Let's not turn the jedi into angels, please.
The prequels, save for III, were not great, but they did convince me that Jedi could be morally questionable too, and they are indeed very similar to siths, save for the way they believe in and use the Force.
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Elvin
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posted December 29, 2015 11:14 AM |
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That is a dense thing to say. You either overlook the general sith modus operandi or have not been exposed to sources other than the movies.
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Neraus
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posted December 29, 2015 11:19 AM |
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Edited by Neraus at 11:20, 29 Dec 2015.
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@Elvin
Machiavelli would do the same things.
And besides, it's a what if, as the sides are ambiguous, do we hear of the Rebels crimes? Does that mean they didn't do anything?
The Sith are supposed to be the bad guys, the dichotomy works that way. But the actions of the organizations, somehow make me think they aren't fully evil.
And besides, if there wasn't a mass genocide of Jedi before the prequels is thanks to there being only two Siths at a time, the Jedi were convinced of having exterminated them all for a reason. 
Aren't we talking about the movies though? As I understand the expanded universe isn't canon anymore. As is the Manichean concept of the force to be honest...
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Noli offendere Patriam Agathae quia ultrix iniuriarum est.
ANTUDO
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