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| Thread: Heroes 4 Ultimate - Prerelease liberated |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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RoseKavalier
Admirable
Supreme Hero
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posted June 11, 2021 02:11 PM |
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NimoStar said:
However, what I really don't understand is why would this, being just creature abilities for now, have to get hooked into the map editor.
Very simple, you're comparing apples and convenience store.
H4MS (Heroes 4 Modding System) = Modding platform
CreatureAbilities = Plugin
H4MS != Creature Abilities plugin
H4MS loads CreatureAbilities and any other plugin that might be requested.
I presumed at some point people might want to hook into the editor and do something there.
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My Let's Plays: Metataxer's Revenge - The Empire of The World 2
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted June 11, 2021 04:27 PM |
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RoseKavalier said:
Very simple, you're comparing apples and convenience store.
H4MS (Heroes 4 Modding System) = Modding platform
CreatureAbilities = Plugin
H4MS != Creature Abilities plugin
H4MS loads CreatureAbilities and any other plugin that might be requested.
I presumed at some point people might want to hook into the editor and do something there.
Correct assumption. We'll need to do that when we can get around to testing out adding new creatures 
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 11, 2021 04:36 PM |
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Well, that falls under the second category I mentioned, "future stuff", since for now the creature ability plugin is the only that exists sadly.
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Never changing = never improving
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2021 05:52 PM |
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RoseKavalier said:
NimoStar said:
However, what I really don't understand is why would this, being just creature abilities for now, have to get hooked into the map editor.
Very simple, you're comparing apples and convenience store.
H4MS (Heroes 4 Modding System) = Modding platform
CreatureAbilities = Plugin
H4MS != Creature Abilities plugin
H4MS loads CreatureAbilities and any other plugin that might be requested.
I presumed at some point people might want to hook into the editor and do something there.
It's a great launching point. I'm trying to grok H4API enough to at least do a Hello World, but I'm new to dll work, let alone injection.
Great work with SoD_SP by the way!
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nostradamus
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 11, 2021 11:15 PM |
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_ _ __ _ __ _ __ _ _
Ah, I forgot to answer to Nostradamus (I think) ghosts requests.
Well, firstly, I can't program that.
Secondly, to grow ghost numbers in combat would be absolutely insanely overpowered. Sure, it was cool for H2 where ghosts were neutrals essentially impossible to get for any player, but on H4, it's not doable without removing ghosts as a faction unit. Imagine the possibility of getting great amount of ghosts without even a hero. Getting unlimited ghosts from just one fighting crap spawned monthly units. Necromancy is already hard enough to balance as it is (specially with life draining units which makes amassing critical numbers easier).
But for some crazy mod just based on cool factor, sure, why not. However, despite our friend here not knowing the difference between map and combat movement and thus believing Pikemen are OP, H4 Ultimate actually is balanced
When you think,consider balance with creatures,or different sides/opponents in the game or mod,then none should have advantage,but if you make mod or creature abilities,spells similar to homm 2 and 3,then you create resemblence with previous versions,but if really possible,it can wait,I liked those neutrals(genies,diamond golem).I also remembered giant(this could be titan without lightning),now bear would be totally new creature puting him in nature or perhaps even might. That is all...
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 12, 2021 12:17 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 01:11, 12 Jun 2021.
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There's also something about the DLL code not being available at the github, so why is this? Super secret code? :¨P
Quote:
When you think,consider balance with creatures,or different sides/opponents in the game or mod,then none should have advantage,but if you make mod or creature abilities,spells similar to homm 2 and 3,then you create resemblence with previous versions,but if really possible,it can wait,I liked those neutrals(genies,diamond golem).I also remembered giant(this could be titan without lightning),now bear would be totally new creature puting him in nature or perhaps even might. That is all...
Yes, new neoutral creatures.
I have tried to help figuring out how and where new creatures will be written, but since this is exe editing and I can't write plugins for the time being, someone else will have to do the initial heavy lifting.
Once it's possible, I can do the conspicous and grateless job of actually implementing the graphics, statistics and abilities so that people can eventually boo that this creature isn't identical to the one they knew from before :v
Jokes aside, yes, be sure that when there is a way to make creatures, I shall implement new ones. Perhaps stone, iron and diamond golems (making those as graphical edits from the existing gold golems), rangers (which I would like to add as well, and we have surplus sprites aplenty), and so forth, are significantly easier than "multiplying" ghosts, though, because that last one requires scripting of completely new abilities, which is yet another mostly unexplored territory.
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Never changing = never improving
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nostradamus
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 12, 2021 01:07 AM |
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I am grateful/thankful Nimo for explaining and answering,now rest and sleep
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2021 01:12 AM |
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NimoStar said:
However, despite our friend here not knowing the difference between map and combat movement and thus believing Pikemen are OP, H4 Ultimate actually is balanced
I know the difference, what I genuinely wasn’t aware of is the recruitment pop up displaying a different value. Is the patronizing little dig really necessary?
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 12, 2021 01:36 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 01:36, 12 Jun 2021.
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It is because you spent pages saying how Ballistas are unplayable and how my mod is inferior to EQ for that, affirming that that value made your army basically not able to move,
when it isn't so and never was, and the EQ value for map movement is just 15 vs 16, and the difference was always like that.
And the recruit popup was always like that as well (just now I'm changing it), meaning both things have been like that for the last nearly 20 years?
Just sayin', if you are going to be so certain of something, at least double check the basics...
Looking forward to any improvement you may make on the plugins department, though.
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Never changing = never improving
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iliveinabox05
Honorable
Famous Hero
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posted June 12, 2021 01:54 AM |
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boho said:
It's a great launching point. I'm trying to grok H4API enough to at least do a Hello World, but I'm new to dll work, let alone injection.
Great work with SoD_SP by the way!
Hey boho, check your pm's.
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RoseKavalier
Admirable
Supreme Hero
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posted June 12, 2021 02:57 AM |
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The super secret DLL code is all there, just missing the VS filters for H4MS that I had blocked initially.... I'll add them over the weekend. The original release was spaghetti code.
Someday I will clean the project and add CMake to it, but h4api is such in a bad shape that it may take a while.
@boho
You certainly don't need to link to h4api to make a DLL, it's just there to give you interact with the process more easily. You need not worry about injection since that step is taken care of by H4MS.
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My Let's Plays: Metataxer's Revenge - The Empire of The World 2
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BrucknerHun
Hired Hero
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posted June 12, 2021 02:22 PM |
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Hello There again!
I like using this mod, and it really feels like fresh air, Heroes IV really needs this care!! I love it!!! 
So first of all, i tried every compatibility, but the double words bug sill the same, this bug only not occur if you playing this game in windowed mod.
1. I deleted all the equi maps and saves ( yes i have already made a backup as well), and now i can finally open the new map editor. After I checked all the tabs and new stuffs in this, everyting is ok, until I clicked on your objects ( Nimo objects) and the editor crashed again and now i can't open neither this, nor the original editor. For now only the Equi. editor works.
Try to reinstall everyting step by step, but the editor couldn't open. 
2. I have alreday asked RoseCavalier for this compatibility, and I am waiting for the answear.
3. Again a quick notice, that every time I open this new exe file, I always get a H4MS debug notepad, which contains this : Acquiring patcher. And i still dont know, why this keep popping up in the game directory.
4. This is just a suggestion, but this mod I think require a proper discord server, because the bug reports and developments of this mod will become easier for everyone!! What do you think?
Ok now comes the good things, since i covering all the factions, staring with the Life faction.
LIFE CASTLE:
Level 1 Units:
- Squires : Got a good rework, as you said it is a solid/tanky unit with no ret, plus the stunning, it feels much more stronger and good to have in your army in almost every situation!
- Crossbowmen: Good shooter, shoot twice instead of the no range penalty, very good combining with precision!
- Peasant : Taxpayer+ slayer= Good unit for defending castle, while you earn money!
Level 2 units:
- Pikeman: Finally they are now really useful in battle in the costs of battle movement. Long weapon, first strike, slayer and unlimited ret. Mini-griffins, but balanced
- Ballistae: As useful as it before, but with ranges slayer and no range penalty. Good shooter and mechanical.
What to choose: Both of them are very good, but it depends on your playstyle as well.
Level 3 units:
- Monks: Good shooters with ward and normal melee. As it good as it before.
- Cruasaders: No ward, but with magic mirror, 2 hit, and first strike, must to have in your army!
What to choose: If you take the ballistae, choose the the melee unit. Hard choice to make,but both are very-very good.
Level 4 units:
- Champions: Finally they got the care, what they deserved. Long weapon and charge, fast recruit and able to cross the field with two turns.
- Angels: They got blinding attack, and they can go throught the natural immunities of them, when blinding. But you got very few angels in one month.
What to choose: Both of them are very good, but it depends on your playstyle as well. Hardest choice to make, but it seems in early game, you should choose champions over angels.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 13, 2021 10:05 PM |
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Quote:
So first of all, i tried every compatibility, but the double words bug sill the same, this bug only not occur if you playing this game in windowed mod.
Ah, I use windowed mode normally, so that must be it.
On the other hand, there is no reason to write the cheats most time, as there is a cheat menu in the prerelease.
Chat, could be.
This is likely a bug with the HD wrapper and should be reported to Verrokster.
Quote:
1. I deleted all the equi maps and saves ( yes i have already made a backup as well), and now i can finally open the new map editor. After I checked all the tabs and new stuffs in this, everyting is ok, until I clicked on your objects ( Nimo objects) and the editor crashed again and now i can't open neither this, nor the original editor. For now only the Equi. editor works.
Try to reinstall everyting step by step, but the editor couldn't open.
Very strange, when I installed in English, it works as normal.
Quote:
3. Again a quick notice, that every time I open this new exe file, I always get a H4MS debug notepad, which contains this : Acquiring patcher. And i still dont know, why this keep popping up in the game directory.
This is for roseKavalier and yes, it's a bit spammy. If he reads this I would say that these logs without useful info should be autodeleted for the end user in the next public release. He enabled this for debug.
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I'm glad you like the faction rework, at least for now, waiting for your reviews of the other factions.
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Also, in case anyone missed it, Read Here for the graphical future of the mod, where creatures that got abilities significantly changed will also get their graphics updated to show it, so you don't mistake them ingame for their old counterparts.
Sprites were already changed to an emerald "Nymph" variant. The portrait was also updated (and new portraits for all creatures, yay).
Creatures to get this treatment on priority:
- Wizards, their color scheme was never like Order, also they can now attack ranged and have melee spell attack.
- Ghosts, they have no longer Aging but they have Panic and Life Drain. This changes their combat role.
- Bone Dragon has random harmful spells, it's image will surely update to reflect this.
If you believe other creatures have their ingame role significantly changed and/or had switched their most distinctive ability from old (such as sprite "no retaliation") for new and different ones, post it here so I can update the graphics.
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Never changing = never improving
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Assryn
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 15, 2021 10:22 PM |
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Hi Nimo !
So far, I've been really enjoying your mod, as I thought I would so first of all, congratulations !
I got into the map editor, and at some point, I got a crash, and since then, everytime I tried to open up the Ultimate version of the map editor, it always immediately crash's (saying "... has ceased to function"). Do you know of some way to fix that ? I'd love to base campaigns on your mod, but this has got me stuck I admit
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 15, 2021 11:31 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 23:43, 15 Jun 2021.
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Assryn said:
Hi Nimo !
So far, I've been really enjoying your mod, as I thought I would so first of all, congratulations !
I got into the map editor, and at some point, I got a crash, and since then, everytime I tried to open up the Ultimate version of the map editor, it always immediately crash's (saying "... has ceased to function"). Do you know of some way to fix that ? I'd love to base campaigns on your mod, but this has got me stuck I admit
Yes, I have gotten a few campaign editor crash reports. But nothing enough specific for me to fix it.
Please upload here the last modified files in your "data" folders, such as DEFULTI.AOP, CURULTI.AOP and and .PBG files.
This may be something dumb that I forgot, in theory there should be no crashes, since the Ultimate editor never crashes for me and I am indeed making new campaigns with the new objects.
PS: Indeed, It seems I have missed one of the required files in the release and this hampers recovery after a crash: This will be fixed on Prerelease V2...
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Never changing = never improving
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wuxiangjinxing
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2021 07:19 AM |
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I noticed that some creatures gain special abilities such as "Negates Mind Immunity" or "Ignores wards". However, as you mentioned before (http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=37350&PID=1501920#focus), those abilities might not really work based on your tests. Did you modify the executable to make them effective this time?
Also, could you please share how did you cancel the neutral army split mechanism introduced by Equilibris? Thanks.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 16, 2021 03:26 PM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 17:32, 16 Jun 2021.
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Quote:
I noticed that some creatures gain special abilities such as "Negates Mind Immunity" or "Ignores wards". However, as you mentioned before (http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=37350&PID=1501920#focus), those abilities might not really work based on your tests. Did you modify the executable to make them effective this time?
Negates Mind Immunity and Ignores Wards actually do work.
My previous tests were not conclusive because I was testing against bad standards.
For example, I had thought that like Orb of Vulnerability, negating magic resistances and wards would negate these traits in al enemies, for all allies.
However, "Ignore Mind Immunity" and similar only work for THE attacking unity. So the immunity is only negated in effects and spells the attaking unit casts, and not for any other spells, abilities or heroes.
Based on this understanding, these abilities definitely work:
- Negate Mind Immunity
- Ignore Wards
- Ignore Magic Resistance
While these abilities still don't, to the best of my understanding:
- Ignore Zones of Control
- Magic Vulnerability
Indeed magic vulnerability I suspect would be "Negative magic resistance". Magic resistance for creatures is defined in some unknown as of yet part of the code, and the ability "magic resistance" doesn't actually do anything either (much like "spellbook casting" abilities and the like). If you could put negative magic resistance into these unknown-location definitions, the ability "Magic vulnerability" would serve to illustrate that.
PS: Ignore Zones of Control I am sure would be like Cloak of Distraction artifact that heroes can wear. The ability just probably never got coded for use in creatures.
Quote:
Also, could you please share how did you cancel the neutral army split mechanism introduced by Equilibris? Thanks.
H4 Ultimate is simply not based on any equilibris code (but it does incorporate all equilibris map objects for map compatibility purposes), so any mechanics introduced in equilibris like summoning and necromancy menues are simply not used since they aren't part of the mod base. They would have to be separately validated by future plugin development.
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Never changing = never improving
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 16, 2021 07:36 PM |
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Edited by boho at 19:40, 16 Jun 2021.
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I'm playing through the Might campaign in Equilibris and thought I'd do a quick preview of Ultimate's changes to Might along with my thoughts.
I haven't taken a dive into stat comparisons since, being a pre-release, those aren't clearly documented anywhere yet (and I didn't want to do screenshot-by-screenshot comparisons). These opinions are based solely on the abilities that were changed, and assume stat values stayed the same as Equilibris. Note we know for a fact they didn't stay exactly the same, so keep that in mind while reading.
For ease of reading I'll use the following symbols:
+: Creature gained this ability.
-: Creature lost this ability.
(No symbol): Creature kept this ability from Equilibris/vanilla.
?: Dude idk
Tier 1:
* Centaurs
Ranged
Normal Melee
+Giant Slayer
+Berserker
-Short Range
Being Ranged, Berserk Centaurs are significantly less punitive than berserk Berserkers (who love moving into the dumbest places), plus the loss of Short Ranged means they'll perform decently well even when they pick a dumb target. The downside is you lose your best "screen" one-stack, so no more (intentional) bullet-catching centaurs.
Giant Slayer (which I'm pretty sure is just the Halfing's specially named Ranged Slayer?) appears to be mostly there for flavor and the consistent theme of "spears kill level 4s."
* Berserkers (Recolor Recommended)
+Life Ward
+Unlimited Retaliation
+Charging
-Berserker
-Two Attacks
In a strange twist of nomenclature, the Berserker is no longer berserk. Ultimate's version is a different take on the berserker archetype, emphasizing "rushing to get stuck in" over "out of control bloodlust." With Charging and Unlimited Retaliation, the clear use is to rush straight to a squishy target in the middle of everything, deal a single big blow, and then take down as many others as they can on their way out (which will be prompt, as they're very squishy without stat changes).
They fit in with the theme of expending level 1s in an offensive instead of traditionally defensive way, and encourages protecting them during the usual creeping so you'll have a nice big stack ready for the first real threat you come across. It also plays into the Barbarian hero's suggested role as the main tank of a group, at least in the early game.
Overall an interesting change.
Tier 2
* Nomads
First Strike
+No Retaliation
Nomads have mostly been left alone. No Retaliation makes them more durable than before, and more viable to immediately attack with as opposed to starting with a wait. It also makes them significantly stronger against other creatures (and Heroes) with First Strike - which there were many of.
It's certainly a net buff on paper, though, again, I haven't reviewed statistical changes.
* Harpies (Recolor Recommended)
Flying
Strike and Return
+Weakness
-No Retaliation
Ouch.
Poor Harpies. This is a big nerf, assuming they're still squishy as hell (but again, maybe this changed in Ultimate, I have not gone through stats). The loss of No Retaliation means your harpies are going to consistently take losses unless you set up them up to succeed by eating the retaliation early or via a "defense is offense" strategy with something like Snake Strike (I'm not sure if Ogre Magi can still cast it, but I hope so). With Snake Strike (and hopefully other buffs) their options open back up and let you calculate trades like "if they don't one-shot this stack, how bad will the retaliation after Weakness be?"
Assuming their target has already used their retaliation, Harpies are as good as ever, and throw in a free Weakness too.
As a result, their role has changed from a harasser/softener to more of a finisher with a side of debuffer. Once again, this plays into the "Hero as tank/retal soaker" Barbarian - which is nice, because Combat->Melee is stronger than it is in Equilibris.
Tier 2 Overall: I'd go with Nomads in most cases, especially if Nomad is still statistically tankier with similar damage.
Tier 3
* Cyclops (Recolor Recommended)
Ranged
Area Attack
+No Obstacle Penalty
+Berserker
The sharpest of double-edged swords, new Cyclops could be just as happy to wipe out your own army as they are to wipe out the enemy. It all depends on what the Berserker AI decides to do.
The Cyclops is stronger than ever, and becomes even more of a monster in offensive sieges, but things start to get weird out in the field. Specifically, you're vulnerable to the worst-case of encountering some quick creature that runs straight into melee but _doesn't_ engage your mighty Cyclops stack, who promptly throws a rock 2 feet aweay and kills half your army. Oops.
Cyclops in Ultimate requires a change in strategy. One solution is to put the idiot in the front row - they're tanky enough, and it's probably better if a fast attacker turns off their ranged attack entirely versus letting them nuke your own lines. Another option is to pick creatures and abilities that keep the enemy at arm's length - which might be hard for Might without easy access to things like Mass Slow/Speed/Haste.
As a shameless fan of Ogre Magi I'm glad to see Cyclops tuned down. Powerful as they are, I'll be keeping my finger on Quick Save if I decide to use these guys.
* Ogre Magi
Bloodlust
+Curse
-Spellcaster (Equilibris)
?Unused Ability?
I have to reserve judgment for these guys. Playing with creature spell lists is a hex edit job and I can't tell exactly what's changed.
On paper, It's a buff over Vanilla (they gain Curse), and a nerf over Equilibris (they lose their spell suite from "Spellcaster" and only get Curse). However, they're granted an ability called "Unused Ability," so perhaps Nimo has done something with that?
If Ogre Magi only have Bloodlust and Curse... well, yikes, that hurts.
What I'd personally like to see on them is Bloodlust + Random Harmful Spells. Delivering debuffs by smacking things in the face with a big stick seems to be right up Might's alley.
Tier 3 Overall: On paper (again, still need to test Magi), it's two awkward choices. The Cyclops is a destroyer of worlds, occasionally including your own. Meanwhile, unless something special is happening with "Unused Ability," Ogre Magi is back to mediocrity, being forced to choose between a decent single target buff, a decent single target debuff, or, usually the ideal move, just walking toward the enemy so he can hit them with a stick.
As much as I want to love Magi, I'd probably go Cyclops and build around not killing myself, which happens to be a pretty strong strategy anyway as it favors things like Tactics, Mass Buffs/Debuffs, etc.
Tier 4
* Behemoth
+Giant Slayer
Strength
Coming from Heroes 3 where it could ignore most of its target defenses (making it one of the best 1v1 Tier 7 killers), Behemoth was just kind of disappointing in Heroes 4, basically being just a ball of stats (and walking wall, which often screwed you over as much as the opponent). The addition of Slayer returns Behemoth back to its old role of a killer of other ultimate creatures, and I really like it, especially with how receptive the Behemoth is to buff spells (bucket o' stats will do that).
* Thunder Bird
Flying
Lightning Attack
+Negate First Strike
+Ignore Wards
A cool buff that emphasizes and flavors the Thunder Bird's role.
Negate First Strike is definitely helpful, but since they're tanky to begin with, it plays more into the "lightning fast" theme than actually dramatically changing their already high performance.
Ignore Wards is a little more flavor (design-wise I assume the idea is to make the bolt more reliable), but I'm curious if it actually does anything. Is Lightning Attack actually typed as Chaos internally?
Tier 4 Overall: Both are good choices and the gap has closed somewhat, though the Behemoth is still... well, a behemoth, and you're still going to find yourself stuck behind it sometimes. Still, Slayer might make it worth it, as it's a very nice scaling buff to find on a 4, especially on a magic-starved town.
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NimoStar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Modding the Unmoddable
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posted June 17, 2021 06:31 AM |
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Edited by NimoStar at 06:57, 17 Jun 2021.
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Ok, a bit more even handed review now, most things you say are right, but some require corrections:
Quote:
Ogre Magi
Unused ability is not actually unused. You are just reading this from the .json file I see-. This was a mistake when people gave ability names to RoseKavalier, as actually Ignore_magic_resistance is called like that in the game code, and looks finished even in the prerelease, having filled in its desc and icon
This means Ogre Magi have a 100% effective curse vs creatures such as Goblin Knights, Gold Golems , Megadragons and Earth Elementals, amongst others. This also counts to curse enemy heroes with magic resistance.
While this is a nerf compared to equilibris, equilibris spells have never been deciphered, so I really can't add them any spell to any creature spellbook. We don't know the hexes. I did try.
As you say, the alternative is attacking with Random Harmful Spells. However this is on Bone Dragon in Death and I believe it is more key to it, and don't want to reuse abilities too much.
The cyclops being berserkers, and the ogres using spellcast on attack, should for the moment be considered as you write to give something extra to the Ogre in comparison to vanilla h4, so they were definitely buffed in total. The only being able to cast bloodlust is a code limitation for the moment.
Harpies and Berserkers should get their graphics modified. Thanks for reminding me. Perhaps I will also change Berserker's name (although historical nordic berserkers didn't actually "go berserk" as depicted, I guess the damage is done)
I believe again you underestimate the power of casting weakness - harpies can attack enemies which defended from other creatures. I woudn't say it's a net nerf, although it does work as a nerf early game, it is a buff to late game. The attack of harpies was also slightly increased. There is actually documentation of this, but I didn't release it because I didn't want there to be obsolete documentation around for the moment of the actual release.
About lightning birds:
The lightning bolt would be Nature-aligned in the mod, this is a bit hard to test because I need an enemy with nature ward which doesn't exist normally, so it has to be cast. Perhaps it is just a superflous ability, but I do know magic resistance does count.
The new behemoths are pretty brutal vs other lvl 4s, so there is definitely more reason to pick them now, while the new bird abilities are quite niche and won't have much of an impact most time.
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Never changing = never improving
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boho
Hired Hero
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posted June 17, 2021 05:47 PM |
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Thanks for the screenshot - correct, I'm just going through the json, so this is more initial thoughts than anything.
I'm not in love with Random Harmful on Bone Dragons on paper, but I'll wait til I go through Death before doing a full writeup.
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