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| Thread: TOH Map comments/problems |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 07:05 AM |
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TOH Map comments/problems
Ok, I've been playing a number of TOH maps multiplayer recently and have encountered a fair few problems. First some general ones:
-Bag of gold artifact. This can seriously unbalance the game, esp if one player gets it early on in the map. It should be disabled in all maps designed for multiplayer.
-Random secondary towns. Often the secondary town near a players primary town is random. If this is different to the players main town then there is no problem, but if it by chance is the same, and their opponent wasn't lucky, then they have a major advantage. IMO ALL towns should be linked to one player or another
-Linkage of objects. IMO ALL other objects should be linked as well, unless there is a specific purpose for not linking them. Getting an order altar if you are life is kinda usless, ditto dwellings, spell shrines and prayer shrines. This also has the potential to unbalance the players, if one player gets lucky and their random dwelling is for a creature of their alignment.
Ok, specific map comments. Some of these may just be opinions:
Fallen bridges:
-There is a Mausoleum, crypt and graveyard in the red player's area (at top) but none in the blue player's area.
-Blue player's water-wheel is inacessible because the guards are placed in un-crossable water.
-No linkage of objects.
Heart of Winter:
-Way too many resources. The gold mine in the beginning means that you almost never run out of gold early-game and the doubling up of all mines gives an abundance of resources.
There's more I have to say on these maps (and others), but I will give full reviews in the up-coming multiplayer section of my map review page (Celestial heavens - www.strategyplanet.com/homm/H4mapreviews.shtml).
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 07:35 AM |
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Quote:
Ok, I've been playing a number of TOH maps multiplayer recently and have encountered a fair few problems. First some general ones:
-Bag of gold artifact. This can seriously unbalance the game, esp if one player gets it early on in the map. It should be disabled in all maps designed for multiplayer.
-Random secondary towns. Often the secondary town near a players primary town is random. If this is different to the players main town then there is no problem, but if it by chance is the same, and their opponent wasn't lucky, then they have a major advantage. IMO ALL towns should be linked to one player or another
-Linkage of objects. IMO ALL other objects should be linked as well, unless there is a specific purpose for not linking them. Getting an order altar if you are life is kinda usless, ditto dwellings, spell shrines and prayer shrines. This also has the potential to unbalance the players, if one player gets lucky and their random dwelling is for a creature of their alignment.
I think i disagree with all these points. 1) Bag of Gold, come on, that will not decide a game. look at a treasure chest, what if 1 person gets 2000 gold and the other gets an artifact? there are lots of aspects in heroes, and this thing is so minor of them all.
2) Matching towns, I dont think they should match, and if they do, how hard and expensive is it to build up another town, plus buy all of your troops?
3)Linking of objects..maybe some should be linked, but not ALL should be linked. for example, what if i want to build a magic hero non native to my town? or if a hero of mine gets a secondary magic skill, wouldnt it be nice to see a shrine different from what you find in your town? I just say leave it up to the map creators as to what they wanna link
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I will not lose.
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Joel
Adventuring Hero
An Underdog (Version 2.0)
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posted September 24, 2002 07:50 AM |
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Edited By: Joel on 24 Sep 2002
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I have to agree with Jb here(as usual, hey he lets me win when we play ).
Psychobabble: Have you played any of the h3 maps for toh? I think that the most popular map (most played) in toh history is Hourglass 2. It suffers from all of the defects which you list. And you know why people liked it?
Because of all the luck that is in it.
Linking all castles, altars and artifacts takes out a major portion of the luck in this game. Taking out the bag of gold does too.
Quote:
Heart of Winter:
-Way too many resources. The gold mine in the beginning means that you almost never run out of gold early-game and the doubling up of all mines gives an abundance of resources.
Heart of Winter is a very, very rich map, but I don't want this to change.
There should be all kinds of maps, for all kinds of styles of play. We shouldn't be making all maps conform to rigid standards. Tempest is a poor map, but that doesn't mean it's bad. Heart Of Winter is a rich one, by the same coin it's not bad either.
If I want a game where I can get lvl 4s day 4 then I know to play HoW. If I want a game where I won't get lvl 4s at all then I'll play Tempest.
I would hate to see Toh remove maps just because they don't fit your style of play.
Peace  ,
Joel
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The Myrmidons and Underdogs
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 10:21 AM |
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Multiplayer FAQ
Ok, I realise resources is a style of play thing which is why I said it was just personal opinion. I just didn't realise it before playing so the amount suprised me a bit.
As for the balance, i thought these games were meant to be as much about skill as possible, minimising the luck. I know some agree with me... I played a game of Barbarian Duels against CTPAX and he asked me not to record a victory against him as I won primarily due to the fact that I got a +500/turn bag of gold on the 2nd turn. This made my income 250-500 higher than his the whole game, which is actually pretty significant esp on small, one town, maps. He said that similar artifacts were banned in Homm3 TOH.
As for the town linkage I believe it is pretty important. Try playing a game where one player has 1 death and 1 might town and the other player has 2 death and tell me that the player with 2 similar towns doesn't have an advantage.
As for the other object, i guess that's more of a personal preference. Things like spell shrines and dwellings should still be linked I think, otherwise theyr'e just wasted space (unless you get lucky).
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GrandElf
Hired Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 11:50 AM |
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Quote:
As for the balance, i thought these games were meant to be as much about skill as possible, minimising the luck. I know some agree with me... I played a game of Barbarian Duels against CTPAX and he asked me not to record a victory against him as I won primarily due to the fact that I got a +500/turn bag of gold on the 2nd turn. This made my income 250-500 higher than his the whole game, which is actually pretty significant esp on small, one town, maps. He said that similar artifacts were banned in Homm3 TOH.
hehe, thats funy, if we start this way, soon there will be nothing left on maps 
i never heard that bags of gold were banned in h3, mapmakers took out few spells(armagedon , fly..) and few relics(wings, tome of fire..)
i know its hard if oponent gets more gold on maps like Barbarian Duels, but im sure that is not so big advantage to call the game off
p.s. and Heroes was allways a game of skill AND luck
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Bad to the bone
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Oh_Smeg
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 11:52 AM |
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I've just finished a major remodelling of Tempest.
Changes include :
1 Adding a random altar to each players start area and underground (I like the idea of a little randomness in what the players possiblities are regarding advanced hero class).
2 Generally improving the aesthetics of the map (I hope).
3 Adding more freebie resources to the players start area and underground. I want to try and achieve a balance where every faction is playable (if resources are too scarce then wood/ore build paths are too dominant) and yet players are forced to scout aggressively for the underground resources if they want an early build of lvl 4's.
4 Added more variety underground. The underground WAS a bit bland and booring.
5 Added scripted events underground in the form of six 'gauntlets' the players can run, one for each faction, with two major artifacts at the end. The player can choose any gauntlet to run, each offering six altars but only one gauntlet can be run. I thought it necessary to limit the players to one only as otherwise the first player there would have a master general in no time.
I think the map is a LOT more interesting now and I hope you guys like it.
I've sent a copy to Bob.
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Destro23
Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
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posted September 24, 2002 01:16 PM |
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lol JB,
I think I may have just responded to a mail regarding this players comments and incldued almost all of what you said in the post.
I would like to remind all players though..
Normal is NOT the only difficulty this game offers!!!
PLaying a resource rich map like Heart of WInter can be fairly challenging to down right hard on say Champion..
And secondly.
Heroes is LUCK..
I mean sure.. if you are a 3 year Vet I am a 1/2 year player sure chances are your going to beat me. But if 2 players of equal skill sit down and start to play a game.. Luck WILL decide the game in almost every instance.
Deal with it.. Its just the way it is.
To Oh Smeg..
I really thouroghly enjoy Tempest each time I have played it. I play a slightly edited version of the map, but nothing major. Ie Blue vs Green.. and the green lv4 dwelling no longer is linked to green.
The only complaint I would make about the map is the center in the overworld. I find in H4 If I can kill a set of lv4 guards, I can kill them all. And so normally when playing this map I have 4 majors (if I like the looks of them) the dragon city, all my troops, and 2 GM heroes by about week 4 day 3 or so.. Which is fine! However with those 4 majors in the middle upworld so close together its hard to have both players take some unless they come at the same time.
Otherwise its my absolute favourite map to play. I really enjoy the no resource version.. And I don't find it difficult to build any faction this way. You just need to be creative
anyway I guess thats long enough.
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The Dead Walk!!!
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 03:10 PM |
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Hehehe, it would seem I got slightly conned then in my game with CTPAX (which is strange, he seems like a reasonably high level player). He assured me that such luck wasn't a normal part of heroes games and that in Heroes 3 it was removed from the game, and thus I didn't report my win against him. I'm new to online Heroes play, I was unaware of the importance people placed on the luck element of the game, I was merely going by what a high ranking player had told me. Oops
IRT O_smeg
I'll have to try your tempest out, esp if you've fixed up the underground Make sure you send the latest version over to CH too...
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H4TCG Review
H4 Map Reviews
Successful trades w/Teuta and doc
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted September 24, 2002 04:28 PM |
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Quote:
I played a game of Barbarian Duels against CTPAX and he asked me not to record a victory against him as I won primarily due to the fact that I got a +500/turn bag of gold on the 2nd turn. This made my income 250-500 higher than his the whole game, which is actually pretty significant esp on small, one town, maps. He said that similar artifacts were banned in Homm3 TOH.
Sounds to me like CTPAX owes you a game!
A Bag of gold is a bag of gold. What if you had found a shield or bow? Would that be a game buster?
You have been screwed
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Oh_Smeg
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 04:42 PM |
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Quote:
lol JB,
I think I may have just responded to a mail regarding this players comments and incldued almost all of what you said in the post.
I would like to remind all players though..
Normal is NOT the only difficulty this game offers!!!
PLaying a resource rich map like Heart of WInter can be fairly challenging to down right hard on say Champion..
And secondly.
Heroes is LUCK..
I mean sure.. if you are a 3 year Vet I am a 1/2 year player sure chances are your going to beat me. But if 2 players of equal skill sit down and start to play a game.. Luck WILL decide the game in almost every instance.
Deal with it.. Its just the way it is.
To Oh Smeg..
I really thouroghly enjoy Tempest each time I have played it. I play a slightly edited version of the map, but nothing major. Ie Blue vs Green.. and the green lv4 dwelling no longer is linked to green.
The only complaint I would make about the map is the center in the overworld. I find in H4 If I can kill a set of lv4 guards, I can kill them all. And so normally when playing this map I have 4 majors (if I like the looks of them) the dragon city, all my troops, and 2 GM heroes by about week 4 day 3 or so.. Which is fine! However with those 4 majors in the middle upworld so close together its hard to have both players take some unless they come at the same time.
Otherwise its my absolute favourite map to play. I really enjoy the no resource version.. And I don't find it difficult to build any faction this way. You just need to be creative
anyway I guess thats long enough.
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The Dead Walk!!!
Thanks Destro, nice to hear you enjoy Tempest. I hope to make it a great map. I still need to work on my terrain modelling...I really like Youri's Heart of Winter...every time he lays down an adventure object he frames it beautifully with terrain...something I'm working on.
What with my pathetic 56k modem and ISP download limit I will not be able to enjoy Heroes 4 online until 3DO rediscovers the merits of sending strings of data reflecting what has changed on a map since the player's last turn and not the whole map.
Oh well, I do enjoy map modelling and hope to bring you all a breathtaking XL map soon...right after I upgrade my small monitor to 17 inch so I can see what I'm doing, lol
Psychobabble, don't be too hard on the element of luck in Heroes play..IMO it adds a lot of enjoyment to the game and is not gamebreaking. Any good Heroes player will overcome a handicap like the Bag of Gold no probs.
Personally, I'd prefer the Ring of Health, especially on Barbarian Duels.
I'll send CH copies of my updated maps when I'm sure there are no problems with them. I'm pretty certain right now but hey I've been wrong before
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Tristan
Promising
Known Hero
illegally insane
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posted September 24, 2002 05:22 PM |
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I would have to agree that the game is about luck, but also about knowing how to make the best of what you get. I believe the bag of gold was removed from some H3 games, but not because it was too strong, rather it was too weak for a relic class artifact, even more so coming as late in the game as it normally would.
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If you learn so much by losing, why am I so dumb?
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vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
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posted September 24, 2002 09:56 PM |
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mirror maps
we definitely dont want to end up going insane on making play balance too perfect, it will make the game boring fast. And if there is a desire for that kind of map, it can be built. But we should always have a wide selection.
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zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted September 24, 2002 10:11 PM |
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hehehe
I just cant believe you felt bad enough about the gold bag to not take your win, lol.
I am currently in a game and I have an archer and the sniper bow, guess I should ask for a restart.
If I ever get travelers boots in a game, its instant reload...thats just too large of an advantage
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Winner or Whiner?
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mklthrkngl
Known Hero
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posted September 24, 2002 10:31 PM |
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lol
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. YA GET IT!!!!????????????
P.P.S. GAVE HIM A WIN CAUSE A BAG O GOLD!!!!!!!!
P.P.P.S. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!
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OK!! So i cann't spell well! So shoot me!!
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Psychobabble
Known Hero
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posted September 25, 2002 12:33 AM |
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Man, I really did get conned Don't be too hard on me, it was my 2nd online heroes game and he was fairly convincing - I didn't know what was going on and he seemed to know what he was talking about. DAMN!!!
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H4TCG Review
H4 Map Reviews
Successful trades w/Teuta and doc
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KalarMcLeod
Hired Hero
Returned to the north
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posted September 25, 2002 01:03 AM |
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Dude...thas ok
I enjoy peoples opinions regardless . Some people blame everything else except their own gameplay when they lose
and yes they can have you thinking it was this or that.
Sometimes you get the breaks and sometimes you don't...to win when you don't makes it so much sweeter
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CraigHack
Known Hero
Have fantasies, will travel...
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posted September 25, 2002 01:34 AM |
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MAP=Death Valley
I like this map a lot!!
But....
I won a game on turn 1 today and won a second one on turn 2.
I didnt want to take a win but the guy insisted and reported 1. "Ragul" is an extra honorable guy if you are looking for someone to play! Put him on your "good player" list.
Anyway, some people cant take the first town with the starting forces they have. It's ok with me but thats the way it is with some of the hero type selections.
You can leave it like it is but it's definitly a newby killer. I can take my town
Comments??
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The Gods have brought us together... I can't imagine why.
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Khayman
Promising
Famous Hero
Underachiever
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posted September 25, 2002 02:59 AM |
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Quote:
As for the balance, i thought these games were meant to be as much about skill as possible, minimising the luck. I know some agree with me... I played a game of Barbarian Duels against CTPAX and he asked me not to record a victory against him as I won primarily due to the fact that I got a +500/turn bag of gold on the 2nd turn. This made my income 250-500 higher than his the whole game, which is actually pretty significant esp on small, one town, maps. He said that similar artifacts were banned in Homm3 TOH.
I think that's B.S. for a player to ask their opponent to not submit a win because things did not go their way. Some of my favorite games are where I am at a disadvantage (whether it be because of my opponent's good fortune or my own stupidity), and then I am able to overcome the setback and perhaps even win the game. If rules are to be made, then they should be addressed prior to starting a match and not during or after the game.
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"You must gather your party before venturing forth."
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midnight
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2002 04:37 AM |
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bag of gold lmao, this is too funny I wonder what would have happened if CTPAX happened to get the bag of gold "sorry mate i just got a bag of gold i think the game is unfair, they banned these in H3 maps" hmmm
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jb239
Famous Hero
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posted September 25, 2002 05:01 AM |
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Death Valley
I have heard a few cases where its been too hard to take the town, and I will slightly edit it to make it somewhat easier, but not too easy. Ill give each team 1 Potion of immortality and a lil powerup by the town. u should take experience from the chests tho, towns easier with a few levels on your hero
should keep most people from losin day 2 or something
so look out for Death Valley Ver 1.2
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I will not lose.
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