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| Thread: Light spells- inferior to dark spells? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 14, 2007 02:57 PM |
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I thought you were talking about knights. Otherwise to pick destructive you must have an ace up your sleeve-an artifact on a good ability. Sylvan works fine with it if you utilize rain of arrows and imbue arrow, academy in smaller maps with motw or with MMR and dwarves if they can get a fire spell with ignite. Good for dungeon anytime, hehe It's usually a liability in multi if your opponent has chosen better skills and your power is just mediocre.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted January 14, 2007 03:05 PM |
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Edited by radar at 15:07, 14 Jan 2007.
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Destructive Magic is GREAT, with Dungeon and somethimes Sylvan...
sylvan?! grass spellpower is higher than theirs ....
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted January 14, 2007 03:09 PM |
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Spellpower has little to do with that. Rangers with deadeye shot do higher damage all around. If you have also imbued an icebolt even for 100 damage that's good enough per round, converting mana into damage FAST. And if you use rain of arrows AND have freezing effect you can disrupt your opponent's initiative greatly.
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted January 14, 2007 03:20 PM |
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Quote:
And if you use rain of arrows AND have freezing effect you can disrupt your opponent's initiative greatly.
... especially if you have Dirael with Expert Summoning Magic and Imbued Wasp Swarm
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lowrez
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 14, 2007 04:11 PM |
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As a result dark is a bit more effective generally. Of course each spell is used best in different situation so there's no problem with that.
good analysis, plus another interesting thing, is it matters where the creatures are on the ATB (and how high the ATB is already). For example if the creature is about to act, slow or haste is next to useless until next round (ie the creature rarely moves position), but if the creature is 6 or 7 actions after the cast, it usually will move it back 5 or more positions. This matters because most of the time nneutrals only take 1 or 2 rounds.
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sgjedi
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2007 12:11 PM |
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Edited by sgjedi at 12:16, 21 May 2007.
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-- I prefer light over dark, cause light magic ALWAYS lands on my units, making them kill faster while a lot of Dark spells are naturally resisted by some creatures. And with the defensive spells like Endurance/ DeflectMissile/ Cleanse and Resu I can keep my party alive.
-- Like for example Blind, Decay, Confusion and Puppet Master are resisted by the undead, elementals, machanic creatures. Mind Control is resisted by titan and brawler. Black Dragon resists all. Slow is resisted by golems, and so on. And don't forget about the fact that a lot of artifacts protect against those "fearful" dark spells. Like those Greaves of the Dwarven Kings protect against slow, and many many others.
-- And with Resurrection on the long run you keep a bit more of your army alive at the end of each combats and after about 10 combats you'll see the difference. You'll have a lot more troops with Resurrection than without resurrection. Of course I'm not talking about the stupid and weak neutral creeping, but 10 combats against other heroes.
-- Destructive magic is only strong in early game. Cause killing 6 level 7 units with an emopwered Implosion might hurt a lot at that time, tho in the late stage games when you have like 40- 50 level 7 units twice as many level 6 units and a lot of lesser units I just won't care about losing 6 units. Especially if I have a Resurrection. And Resurrection works wonders with a warlord, cause thanks to their high Spellpower they resurrect a lot of Hitpoints/creatures.
-- And this is only my point of view, so take no offense, people.
Peace.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 12:15 PM |
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tho in the late stage games when you have like 40- 50 level 7 units
This is not possible in player vs player games. 20 level 7 units is max you can get in a game considered VERY long (except two-castle maps). Most of the games ends within two months, usually faster, so in most games, you have like 10 level 7 creatures or so.
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twice as many level 6 units and a lot of lesser units I just won't care about losing 6 units. Especially if I have a Resurrection.
A well developed warlock of second month kills ~28 titans with one lucky empowered implosion. Ressurection is crap, unless you play Academy and abuse it with MoTW.
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And this is only my point of view, so take no offense, people.
You can also say conscript is the best unit in the game and it would be also your point of view. TOo bad it would be entirely wrong, metagame-wise. Just like your oppinion about destructive magic and ressurection is regards.
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sgjedi
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2007 12:35 PM |
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Edited by sgjedi at 12:37, 21 May 2007.
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Well yes Doomforge, but:
1. I DON'T play against live players just the computer.
2. On a big map with 8 castles you can fight much longer than 2 months.
3. Getting the required high level destructive spell requires at least 1 mage guild 5 and you often don't get the spell in one guild so you have to build 3 or 4 guilds till you get implo./Armageddon/chainLightning/Meteors. And that costs a hell lot of resources.
4. The mass light spells are mostly level 1-3 spells so then can be obtained much more easily. And they don't need multiple sub-skill trees just the full specification of light magic and the 3 Masteries.
5. And I ALSO said that against 10 level 7 creatures Destructive magic is better. So why was I mistaken?
6. A lot of artifacts give 50% elemental resistance and they are neither rare nor expensive.
7. It is NOT too polite to say that somebody is absolutely wrong. Each coin has 2 sides, you know and there is no absolute truth... Hell knows but I haven't yet lost a game against the computer with my "miserable and weak" light magic ways.........
- We should respect each other more and not say negative things about each other, shouldn't we?
- Peace...
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 12:43 PM |
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1. I DON'T play against live players just the computer.
That makes a huge difference
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2. On a big map with 8 castles you can fight much longer than 2 months.
Mb versus AI. Normally, you don't want the game to last that long, especially against castles like haven or academy.
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3. Getting the required high level destructive spell requires at least 1 mage guild 5 and you often don't get the spell in one guild so you have to build 3 or 4 guilds till you get implo./Armageddon/chainLightning/Meteors. And that costs a hell lot of resources.
You don't need all, and the level 4 guild+previous ones doesn't cost more tha level6 dweeling+its upgrade.
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4.The mass light spells are mostly level 1-3 spells so then can be obtained much more easily. And they don't need multiple sub-skill trees just the full specification of light magic and the 3 Masteries.
You don't need any subskill tree with destructive magic.
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5. And I ALSO said that against 10 level 7 creatures Destructive magic is better. So why was I mistaken?
Against 20 it's equally good
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6. A lot of artifacts give 50% elemental resistance and they are neither rare nor expensive.
And only academy has the artie merchant of their own to counter dungeon. Warlock byus the +elemental damage artifact for the corresponding spell, will you guess which element to protect from? Besides, warlock's special partially negates magic resistance.
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7. It is NOT to polite to say that somebody is absolutely wrong. Each coin has 2 sides, you know and there is no absolute truth... Hell knows but I haven't yet lost a game against the computer with my "miserable and weak" light magic ways.........
My dear friend, it is polite to say somebody is wrong, when it is done in a polite and friendly way. Do you see me flaming? AI is very bad in heroes5, it will never do many things that a half-smart human opponent would do, it is very schematic and brainless. That's why as a player that plays vs. AI only you can not know which strategies really work, and which don't. I'm just stating the fact, it's nothing offensive. Regards.
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sgjedi
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2007 01:11 PM |
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Edited by sgjedi at 13:13, 21 May 2007.
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You don't need any subskill tree with destructive magic.
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-- Well. I think you might be right about the things you said in the rest of your post, cause the AI can be easily exploited compared to a human brain's versitility. Tho I think against those "destructive magic loving maniacs" I'd rather build the level 7 building for Black dragons and I'd watch them with joy when they realize that they can eat their destructive magis, cause it is of no use against me. And still building those magic guilds is a gamble.... if you are unlucky you have to build lots of them, till you get your 1 favorite high level spell.
-- And now let's talk about what I've quoted. You say that you don't need a lot for destructive magic?
For a lucky, devastating destructive magic spell you need:
1. Expert Destructive magic to deal the most damage with the spells.
2. Advanced Luck for Soldier's Luck then Warlock's Luck.
3. Advanced Irresistable Magic/Elemental Chains for elemental Vision and Empowered spells.
4. You also have to be LUCKY to get these skills quickly, cause the computer gives skills randomly and it maight take you a long time till you get the "perfect-lucky-destruction-caster" setup.
5. You need at least one high level destructive spell and optionally at least 1 artifact that boosts that elemental spell, but IT HAS TO BE EXACTLY THE SAME ELEMENT, cause you can do nothing if you only have an Evercold Icicle and let's say Implosion or MeteorS.....
6. And finally you also need to boost your luck with artifacts to at least 4 or even 5, cause the "lucky-nuke" is worth nothing if it does not kick in while you are casting the spells.....
-- So all in all it is much easier/safer to go the life magic way in my opinion, tho it might be true that the full-destrucion-combo could be more devastating, but what if the enemy does not wait till you get all these required things?
-- I think it's risky. I'd always choose a safe but minor advantage compared to a huge but risky advantage.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 01:39 PM |
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I meant the "master of fire/ice/lightning" perks ;p
yes, if you want to go full magic, you need sorcery, destructive, luck, warlock's luck, enlightnment, intelligence, expert irresistable.. For a might approach, I'd suggest Kythra. She comes with leadership, that normally has only 2% chance of popping up for warlocks and is a good skill to have for any might-based army. For mixed might-magic ones, Yrwanna works the best.
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sgjedi
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 21, 2007 02:04 PM |
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Edited by sgjedi at 14:17, 21 May 2007.
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I meant the "master of fire/ice/lightning" perks ;p
yes, if you want to go full magic, you need sorcery, destructive, luck, warlock's luck, enlightnment, intelligence, expert irresistable.. For a might approach, I'd suggest Kythra. She comes with leadership, that normally has only 2% chance of popping up for warlocks and is a good skill to have for any might-based army. For mixed might-magic ones, Yrwanna works the best.
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- Hehe, yes. My favorites are Kythra and Eruina (For her speciality that the Matriarchs follow her attack. Well if you have 3 stacks of matriarchs in your army at higher level at least 1 of them would always support her.) And for example with Eruina I NEVER go the light magic way since she allready has Destructive magic at level 1.
- So don't take me wrong. I don't want to say that light magic is uber. Fortunately the magic schools in H5 are quite well balanced (Except for summoning): some guys like Dark schools, some like Destructive school and some like Light or Summoning schools (Tho this last one is rare. ). It only boils down to your playing style tho it might be true that against players this might be a bit different but since I have no experience with that I can't decide about that.
- Peace.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted May 21, 2007 03:55 PM |
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Don't forget that light spells can be countered by the opposite dark spell. And that ressurection takes a huge chunk out of hitpoints.
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Bask in the light of my glorious shining unicorn.
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted May 21, 2007 04:06 PM |
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Don't forget that light spells can be countered by the opposite dark spell.
and vice versa.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted May 21, 2007 04:46 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 16:47, 21 May 2007.
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Well in the first circles it's more or less balanced: Slow gives more of an initiative advantage compared to haste on expert and starts at -25% while haste at 10%. Deflect missile(-70%) is less effective than confusion which totally negates ranged AND enemy retaliation. On the other hand endurance is more effective than vulnerability most of the times and the rest are more or less equal. Cleansing can counter everything yet it has an area of effect plus it costs 20 mana. or 10 as single but that's more useful for higher lvl curses.
On lvl 4 we have curses that can make or break a game if not resisted(though a smart player can find ways around them) while light has the magical immunity as counter and the teleportation that has uses in many situations as castle sieges(on exp light), taking advantage of precise shot, teleporting frenzied units near an enemy, blocking shooters etc.
I'd say that light while more self-sufficient might find itself at disadvantage vs dark. If you don't get the immunity, teleportation is of limited use plus after you cast immunity there are no buffs.
At lvl 5 it's a battle of resurrection vs puppet master. Curse of the netherworld affects more factions but it's still a waste of a spell. Resurrection will make sure you have more units by the endbattle but will be of less use itself by then. It will rez less units than you'd like while giving a 10% hp penalty each time which is not good if your armies have grown.
On the other hand puppet master can take on a stack no matter how powerful it is. Sure, it drastically drops the initiative but at worst you may prevent a swift unit from taking action in time. Yes, it can be cleansed but there is a catch:
First of all units will not cleanse a powerful caster's high lvl spell most of the time, except for paladins that have lay on hands. That leaves the hero which still has a margin for error as cleansing is just a lvl 2 spell and you must have it in expert if you are to dispel it almost always. And cleansing costs much considering that only wizards from the 3 light casters have a good knowledge. That's why most of the time a dark caster will prefer to stall until the other's mana is depleted and behold! Inferno has familiars, necromancer has mark of the necromancer and CAN outmana their opponent. Then a puppet can mean game over. Also puppet gives no retaliation should you choose to attack the controlled unit.
It still is balanced but not getting cleansing or magical immunity either can give an edge to dark. Hopefully the light caster will have a good resistance then. Or a good morale bonus as puppet master's duration ends faster if the unit gets good morale
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 06:31 PM |
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Very Nice analysis of puppet master, Elvin. Although against a faction you'd really want to see puppetmastered (haven) it does not work due to paladins. Pity. Even if you try to outstall the opposing caster, he may totally ignore your efforts and keep buffing your army while the smaller paladin stack cleanses over and over. Eventually, two smaller paladin stacks and one bigger, offensive. Haven doesn't fear mind spells that much. Not to mention the artifacts that give certain resistances; kinda unfair that there are arties that prevent the enemy from casting slow, but there are none that prevent him from casting haste 
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 07:19 PM |
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Light and Dark are pretty equal. Both can counter low level spells and the only difference is in 4-5 lv spells. Light spells works better on high levels when they can't be countered. Dark spells are "better" but it's allways a gamble. Enemy often has cleansing or anti-magic but IF you get lucky you might cast Frenzy on Paladins before enemy hero even gets a turn.
In the end Ligh Magic is more durable but if you aren't feeling lucky play againts Dungeon/Inferno
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executor
Famous Hero
Otherworldly Ambassador
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posted May 21, 2007 07:49 PM |
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Edited by executor at 19:50, 21 May 2007.
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Lets just say dark magic is washing hands and light is washing legs  . Both are good .
//But first is useful a bit more often.
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Understanding is a three-edged sword.
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Istari
Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
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posted May 21, 2007 08:57 PM |
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Light and Dark Magic serve completely different functions. Light magic is for a large army that you want to boost to make a might strategy might-ier. Dark magic is for sneaky smaller armies who want to disrupt a larger army. Dark Magic isn't worth hill of beans against an army that doesn't rely on troops (academy and dungeon destructive magic) and Light magic will work quite well in those situations. Light Magic however doesn't do much if you don't have a large army to use it with whereas with just a few troops and puppetmaster, you can clear the entire map with Dark magic. It seems like it all depends on who you are fighting with and who you are fighting against.
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Opinions are immunity to being told you're wrong.
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Lesij
Famous Hero
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posted May 21, 2007 09:38 PM |
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Quote:
Light and Dark Magic serve completely different functions. Light magic is for a large army that you want to boost to make a might strategy might-ier. Dark magic is for sneaky smaller armies who want to disrupt a larger army. Dark Magic isn't worth hill of beans against an army that doesn't rely on troops (academy and dungeon destructive magic) and Light magic will work quite well in those situations. Light Magic however doesn't do much if you don't have a large army to use it with whereas with just a few troops and puppetmaster, you can clear the entire map with Dark magic. It seems like it all depends on who you are fighting with and who you are fighting against.
I've got the same point! 
That all depends on your tactics...
If you play Haven, Fortress, or you are just might-orinted use Light Magic.
If you play Inferno, Necro, or you just like being mean- choose Dark Magic.
That's all...
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