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| Thread: Favorite Magic system features in HOMM games and possible implentations in VCMI Mod. |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 13, 2023 01:06 PM |
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MattII said:
In terms of schools, I'm not tied to a given number of school, or their arrangement, I simply wish for there to be a system whereby a spell can become more effective for a given hero Power score.
Star_mage said:
Quote:
F*** no! Get that H6 bullcrap out of here. One of the best aspects of the Heroes games is the 'secondary-skill sandbox'. Touching that would ruin it.
I never played heroes 6. This shows how biased and impulsive you are for not thinking for a moment that I might not even know the mechanics system of H6.
let's have a conversation as adults, that is with respect, shall we?
I'm sorry if that came off as harsh. I'm not insulting you personally, just expressing my extreme disdain for that concept. Said change would quite honestly be a deal-breaker for me.
not IF. It DID. It's ok that you apologized, but it is better if you learned a lesson out of this too. In science, there are no bad ideas, just fuel to discussion.
What you did was put yourself in the center of the world and validated only your ideas. Did you think that maybe, MAYBE more people agree with my idea? Maybe they do, maybe they DON'T, but no one should dismiss the other person's idea with those words. The way you expressed you 'extreme disdain' the second time would have been enough to say the first time.
Why am I following this up? Because behaviour like yours makes other people refrain from expressing their ideas because they think that some people like you might jump at their throat.
This kind of topic should promote the idea of intervening with your worst ideas (and best). Just do it! Maybe some people like it, maybe simply by putting it into words makes you see how bad it is. That's why we're talking. With respect!
Now, to keep it on topic.
Making AOE spells as an upgrade version of a single target spell (chain lightning to lightning bolt OR inferno to fireball etc) and casting the Chain Lightning one enemy by one implies a few things:
1. first and foremost, it takes out the RNGness. Chain Lightning was always chance-based. The player would always have to think twice before casting a Chain Lightning because the proximity of their units would be affected
2. Inferno and Chain Lightning are more complex and powerful spells. Not sure about damage, but the fact that the AOEness is bigger, it makes them more expensive spells.
If you replace Fireball with Inferno when it is upgraded, then the hero would have trouble using the Inferno when not having enough mana, for example.
Plus that they are simply situational. Inferno in some situations, Fireball in others. Chain Lightning in some situations, Lightning bolt in others. They are not the same situationally.
As a solution, they could be an upgrade for the other spells conceptually and visually, but somehow KEEP all the versions of the spell in your spell book and use them when you have few spell points, when you want to target one unit, etc.
I would also limit each faction from having some spell schools.
Inferno should not have water spells
Rampart should not have fire spells (nature =/= fire)
Necropolis should not have light spells (if it comes to fruition)
Castle should not have dark spells (if it comes to fruition)
etc.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 13, 2023 08:41 PM |
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Edited by MattII at 20:42, 13 Nov 2023.
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Star_mage said:
not IF. It DID. It's ok that you apologized, but it is better if you learned a lesson out of this too. In science, there are no bad ideas, just fuel to discussion.
This isn't a discussion of science, but of preferences. I think you'll struggle to find any serious fan of the previous games that likes the system put up in MMH VI.
Quote:
What you did was put yourself in the center of the world and validated only your ideas. Did you think that maybe, MAYBE more people agree with my idea? Maybe they do, maybe they DON'T, but no one should dismiss the other person's idea with those words. The way you expressed you 'extreme disdain' the second time would have been enough to say the first time.
Acknowledged.
Quote:
As a solution, they could be an upgrade for the other spells conceptually and visually, but somehow KEEP all the versions of the spell in your spell book and use them when you have few spell points, when you want to target one unit, etc.
That works for me.
Quote:
I would also limit each faction from having some spell schools.
Inferno should not have water spells
Rampart should not have fire spells (nature =/= fire)
Necropolis should not have light spells (if it comes to fruition)
Castle should not have dark spells (if it comes to fruition)
etc.
What defines a spell's 'school' is an extremely fluid measure. While 'water' and 'fire' spells are easy to see, if the spell system uses non-elemental schools, those might refer only to particular damage-dealing spells. Also, as I said before, I'm against limiting what a hero can learn, or rather, I would prefer there to be no skills or spells a hero can't learn.
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 14, 2023 12:47 PM |
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Another idea that i recently came up with is making a Physical Ability School(s) (still working on the name).
It is a spell/ability school that is reserved only for Might Heroes.
Ofc, the type of damage would be physical -> therefore, other spell schools need to have their own type of damage: air damage, light damage, water damage etc. -> furthermore, effectiveness should be created (water damage deals 2x damage to fire creatures for example).
i think that you re all familiar with this idea from other games. It is not a personal invention, i just took it from other games.
DAMAGING ABILITES:
For example, Rangers get physical arrows to shoot with.
One shoot is a damaging ability.
Two shots is another damaging ability (with cooldown)
Two shots on different enemy units (with cooldown)
AOE: Volley Arrows as an AOE damaging ability (with cooldown)
Then the arrows can be upgraded with skill:
Poison Arrow applies poison (can be shot once, twice on same unit, twice on different units, AOE)
Fire Arrow applies burn
Frost Arrow applies freeze
etc.
BUFF ABILITY:
Battle shout is a buff ability that increases morale or luck of a friendly unit > upgraded: to more than 1 units > upgraded: to all units
DEBUFF ABILITY:
Intimidating Howl: debuff ability for enemy units: decreases morale/causes enemies to freeze in panic > upgraded: to more than 1 units > upgraged: to all units
Ofc, might heroes should be differentiated between roles:
Ranged - there are knights who specialize in ranged attacks - orrin and valeska
- rampart rangers like Ivor, Genova, Kyrre, Gelu
Melee - will be harder to represent since they are stationary and they need ranged abilities or spells to attack. Im starting to see why the system is so lame. The heroes mechanics are limited by the stationary hero.
So they should all be ranged heroes or use spells. But that wouldnt make sense.
So, to fix the above flaw:
- crossbowmen (knights), rangers, some beastmasters, some barbarians get the above abilities related to arrows.
- alchemists get their own ability school like using potions like in heroes 4 - afterall the potions are physical tools, not magic
- demoniacs should use summoning abilities [to summon demons ofc] and to buff them with magic resistance, increase damage, increase health etc.
Other solution is to give melee heroes hard buffs for their own creatures and a few situational spells like blind, poison, landmines, earthquake, anti-magic, force field etc. < if the creation of so many Ability Schools is a fuss.
Maybe we will turn to using commanders as heroes and leave the stationary heroes behind.
Im pretty curious what people think about this.
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 15, 2023 01:50 AM |
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Edited by MattII at 09:30, 15 Nov 2023.
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Spells doing less (or more) damage to certain creatures has been a feature of the game since Heroes 2, though it could be expanded IMO.
As to applying that the units that aren't traditionally magical, it's possible, but I think other ways of differentiating those from spells would be better. So say, instead of firing on one square, you can focus on a 2x2 area for half damage. Or the ability to switch from primarily ranged (with a melee disadvantage), to primarily melee (with a ranged disadvantage).
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted November 15, 2023 07:41 AM |
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Star_mage said:
Im pretty curious what people think about this.
I think you should start coding.
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 15, 2023 11:19 AM |
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That s right. Maybe i should.
But until then, i have all the rights to discuss and you cannot stop me.
But really now?
What s wrong you people?
One of you is telling me to get the f out with my idea, like im not allowed to even mention my opinion. How dare i!!
And the other is telling me to start coding after we ve been specifically asked by the original poster to present our ideas.
How old are you? Dont we all live in 2023?
Havent we gotten past toxicity? Do some of us still have issues to fix?
I think that you should limit yourselves to posting if you have nothing else to add to the original topic and leave us to talk in peace.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted November 15, 2023 01:22 PM |
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Relax my friend. I didn't forbid you anything. Feel free to discuss.
But really I mean what I wrote. This is the best advice you will get here from any discussion. Maybe I am already too long on this forum, but over the years some patterns repeat itself.
If you are discussing a 20 year old game and how to change mechanics it will lead to nowhere except a nice chat.
Now your ideas are really not a small change, but rather mayor. If you feel this is a nice addon for your game the best is to give it a try by implementing the changes and playtest them. VCMI offers good possibilities for that.
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 15, 2023 01:45 PM |
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Now, people, grab your popcorn, in case you havent already, because there are some lessons that i need to teach!
----------------------------------------------
Oh nonono, dont use that gaslighting on me.
I dont care how long you are on this forum and what other lame explanations you have and it is irrelevant how impactful my ideas are.
The original poster ASKED to present our ideas. What s so hard to comprehend?
What if i want a nice chat? The original poster started this 'nice chat'. We re both looking to have a 'nice chat' (unfortunately, there's people like you and Matt who ruin our 'nice chat')
Why are we having this conversation and why dont you mind your own business if you have nothing to add related to the original topic? Seriously. You have broken the forum's rules (i didnt even read them, but it's internet common sense in 2023 that you have to stay on topic) by telling me what to do.
You unnecessarily deviated the topic from the original post. And you were rude to me by giving me an answer unrelated to my question. I asked what is the community's opinion on the commanders and you replied that you think that i need to start coding.
Do you think that i'm d*mb?
Oh, how come i didnt think of that? To start coding. Wow, thank you! I really needed someone to remind me of that.
Can't you really see how you are in the wrong here? You people need to have another set of education in real life. It's even sadder that i have to explain this to you. We're both adults with access to education.
So stop looking for a way to look 'good' or 'chill', 'my friend', because we're not in the unconscious 2010 era when you do something wrong towards another and then say things lige 'relax' and 'my friend' making you seem innocent and the other person looking like they're overreacting. Ok? You have barked at the wrong tree, 'my friend'.
I don't care what anyone has to say about my speech because the only thing that im guilty of is fueling this out-of-topic side discussion.
I only 'cared' about the commander idea. And you failed to understand this.
And i will stress it until people like you stop intervening with this type of messages: STOP.DISRUPTING.PEOPLE.WHO.DISCUSS.IF.YOU.DO.NOT.STAY.ON.TOPIC.AND.RESPECTFUL!
EDIT: And im pretty sure that this chat is already ruined. Like most other discussions. The real 'pattern' here is that people start a discussion and then other people like you and Matt start using insulting words and giving unsolicited advices (which is a rude thing by itself) and, obviously, who is going to keep talking about the subject after your interventions and the thread dies. Good job!
EDIT 2: Since it seems that you, veteran people, forgot about the C.O.C., im placing the first bullets. FIRST!
CODE OF CONDUCT
It is important that all members of the Heroes Community read the following guidelines. They have been devised based on years of experience to ensure that the Community will remain as honorable and rewarding as possible. Any violations could result in penalties, silencing and expulsion from the Heroes Community. Please observe these simple rules and everyone's life will be much more enjoyable.
The Foundation: Respect.
* An attitude of consideration and appreciation.
* Courteous regard for people's feelings, opinions and actions.
1) NO insults, abuse, racism or sexism.
Insult is a remark that undermines another person. A simple way to avoid insulting people is to discuss their actions and opinions rather than their personality. For example: instead of saying who they are ("you suck" or "you are an idiot") say what you think about their opinions/actions and why ("Your post about me is wrong because I never said that heroes 4 is a bad game" or "I disagree with your opinion because centaurs have more hit points than gnolls"). This simple rephrasing strategy can resolve many conflicts and fights before they even happen, both online and in life.
Racism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their nationality, ethnicity, religion, race, place of origin, or skin color. Sexism is any remark that associates negativity with a person or group of people based on their gender or sexual orientation.
2) NO bad language, profanity, vulgarity or swearing.
Correctly censored vulgar words may be used, but not for insults, abuse, racism, sexism, provocation or aggravation.
Correct censoring means replacing all letters in the vulgar words with asterisks by holding the SHIFT key and pressing the number 8 key (US keyboards). For example: when **** hit the fan. Any other method of censoring vulgar words partially or entirely will be considered incorrect censoring and may be penalized. Actual or misspelled vulgar words will be penalized immediately.
Our aim is to keep Heroes Community children and family friendly. Instead of blurting out vulgarity, take it as a creative challenge to find alternative words to express strong emotions.
Other languages: posts or public profile settings in languages other than English may be removed without notice, as moderators often have no easy way of verifying whether they contain a breach of Heroes Community Code of Conduct.
4) NO spam, junk posts, thread killing, flooding or flaming.
Junk post is a post that fails to address the topic of discussion and fails to provide intellectual or humorous stimulation, or put simply: off topic, not interesting, not funny. Thread killing is making offtopic comments in a thread in a way that discourages other posters from continuing their serious discussion. Flooding is creating several threads in a short amount of time. Spam is creating several replies that contain one or two sentences in a short amount of time. Junk posts, thread killing and spam are allowed in the Volcanic Wastelands forum (see Volcanic Wastelands rules here). Creating a second username in order to surpass the daily post limit or to spam/flood is prohibited.
Threads abusing any glitches found in HC will be penalized, if you spot a glitch please report it in the Turban Tribunal. Threads which are created simply to be an eyesore or cause significant lag for members trying to view them will be penalized. This includes - massive quoting, filling the posting box with smilies / bb code, and stretching posts with either long strings of text or enormous photos.
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RerryR
Promising
Supreme Hero
Researching Magic
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posted November 15, 2023 07:42 PM |
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sry man, my comment wasn't meant to upset you in any way. I really meant that a working mod based on your ideas could be a good thing for the community.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 15, 2023 08:09 PM |
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Well, Rerry is right, speculating on morning shower ideas went nowhere in the last 20 years unless someone materialize them, because that's the only way to test an idea accuracy and balance.
By learning how, now all tools are available. But hey, if trying to give a direction to your chitchat offends you, go on, the thread will end in a few days then fade into oblivion, like the thousands others before.
Btw, the thread title is about ideas THEN implement them. Then you are in the modding forum, in case you didn't notice it.
____________
Era II mods and utilities
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 15, 2023 08:25 PM |
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No he's not. And neither are you. And just because there's two of you, it doesnt mean that you are both right.
You are both failing to comprehend the scope of this thread.
And, since we're talking about semantics, Salamandre, the original poster said 'POSSIBLE IMPLEMENTATIONS'. So everything is still hypothetical, no matter how major.
And, what? Is there a separate forum for ideas? I thought ideas are discussed in the modding forum. That argument goes against you, not against me. (?!)
Again, why are we having this conversation? Are you two lacking common sense or something?
I didn't just impose my ideas, Pollo simply asked them. And maybe we only was to discuss 'morning shower ideas'. With the risk of repeating myself, who are you to tell me that? Didn't you GET IT from the previous reply?
And don't you worry about the thread's fate, just like Rerry worried about my lack of awareness that i can start coding. I can do this myself. What a forum of benefactors!
Now, since you are out of topic, please, if you have nothing else to say ABOUT THE TOPIC, get out of this thread and let the talkers talk. Ok? Thank you!
And yes, I CAN tell you what to do as long as im promoting the COC.
You guys have found found wrong person to argue with!
EDIT: In case you missed it, guys:
Quote:
I'm interesting in reading what are other people opinions on what is the ideal Magic system for them and more important WHY.
Anyway, I'm interested in general discussion on how the magic system of a HOMM game should be. Even interested if its slightly offtopic but still Magic related.
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Salamandre
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Wog refugee
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posted November 15, 2023 08:34 PM |
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I think you should start coding 
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Star_mage
Hired Hero
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posted November 15, 2023 08:40 PM |
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In psychology, it s called 'humour deflection'. That s when a person loses an argument and has nothing else to say. ^^
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MattII
Legendary Hero
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posted November 16, 2023 10:22 AM |
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In terms of spell schools, I've never been quite comfortable sticking 'Light/Dark' in along with the 'Earth/Air/Fire/Water'. The first two have a moralistic tone to them, which, in my mind, clashes with the purely physical tone of the other elements. I mean, it worked in Heroes 5, where the schools were mostly effect-based (Dark spells were mostly about reducing enemy stats, Destructive was about dealing damage, etc.), but switching back to elemental schools for Heroes 6 and 7, yeah, that bother me a bit.
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