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| Thread: All the unrealism in HOMMs |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · NEXT» |
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:19 PM |
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All the unrealism in HOMMs
valera from Heroes Community
All the unrealism in HOMMs Posted 11-24-2000 20:07
Greetings, fellow Heroes!
What I'm going to write about today is my concern with the unrealism issues in heroes.
1) Hero Chains. How could that possibly work in "real life"? One hero has a group of troops, travels with them for a whole day to deliver them to another hero. The other hero walks another day of walking with the same troops, and so does the third, fourth, etc. How can the troops, especially slow ones, travel half a map in one day? Does hero carry 5 chaos hydras and 263 hobgoblins on his horse? Don't think so. I think every troop stack should have a stat called "movement points" - that will also show their speed on map and combat. Hero's skills such as pathfinding and logistics will modify the way his troops spend their movement points, but once the slowest troop has spent the points for a day, there is no going further. What do you think?
2) Learning places. This is really just an idea. Some better learning places could require a hero to stay for several days to gain few attack points for example.
ideas?
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:19 PM |
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dr_st from Heroes Community
Don't need no realism Posted 11-26-2000 07:47
If you try to put too much realism, you will spoil the game completely. What's realistic in turn-based game? Or how can 100 dragons be represented as one unit on the battlefield? And there's no end to such things. I guess you can add more and more realism, and then reach to a point when Heroes becomes a Warcraft-style RTS, which takes the whole point out of the game.
And is the RTS style itself completely realistic? Look at Warcraft - a ship has the size of 2-3 land units, and only double the hitpoints...
Don't try to make the game more realistic (unless the unrealism is too blunt). What matters it the fun.
That's my opinion.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:19 PM |
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Greiger [guest] from Heroes Community
Agree about realism not-needed, but chaining should go. Posted 12-11-2000 23:50
I agree that realism is not needed for a game to be fun, however in this case I think that hero chaining detracts from both realisim and enjoyment.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:20 PM |
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dr_st from Heroes Community
So what is your suggestion? Posted 12-12-2000 07:54
Make map movement depend entirely on troops? In that case, a hero with hydras will walk until the hydras get "tired", then swap the hydras with phoenix that haven't walked yet this day, and by doing that the hero will regain its movement points?
If you do so, people will start using hero chains, but not to deliver troops, but to make a specific hero walk further to get to a certain place (like returning to the castle in one day).
You can be even more strict, so a hero can only move if he is not tired AND his troops are not tired. Some might prefer this method. It will complicate the game a bit, and it will also make small hero chains (like between 2 heroes), which are sometimes very useful and do not spoil the fun, impossible.
I think simple: if one doesn't like hero chains, let him not use it, just like there are cheat codes, and many don't use them, but it doesn't mean they should be unavailable.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:20 PM |
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valera from Heroes Community
Movement Posted 12-12-2000 17:46
I'd definitely go with the idea that both heroes and troops have movement points. Hero's skills may reduce the amount of movement points spent per every move by him and the creatures in his lead.
Valeriy.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:20 PM |
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Greiger [guest] from Heroes Community
movement Posted 12-13-2000 18:52
I think you are focusing on what the restricted movement, if both heroes and troops have a movement rate will take away from the game (heroes chains) but not considering what it will add. For instance now you may be able to give a hero a large army by combining with another hero (who used all his troops movement to get to the first hero) or go after some artifact with your current army, but not both. I think having to make strategic decisions like this will only add to the enjoyment of the game.
As for just not using hero chains, this is what I currently do, but when playing multiplayer it does put you at a rather large disadvantage to not use them.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:21 PM |
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Me from Heroes Community
Warlords 2 Posted 12-20-2000 05:05
I used to play a game called warlords 2 they used
the idea of both heros and units have an affect on
how far a garrison moved. I wouldn;t ming seeing
that happen in future versions as an adventure
map option, but not a game standard. Another cool
thing in warlords was that if you have a troop of
angels and griffens, both of which were in
warlords, they could fly across water with thier hero
a nice added feature.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:21 PM |
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dr_st from Heroes Community
There is no limit to what can be done Posted 12-20-2000 06:36
Yes, indeed, there is no limit, and there are some really nice things you can do, and ofcourse someone will like 'em more and someone less. The thing about the original heroes adventure style was the simplicity and the clear boundaries: everything that happens on the map depends only on the hero, the castle and the resources, whereas everything that happens on the battlefield depends on the hero and the monsters. It may be unrealistic, but these are simple rules, and they are quite fun to play by. In my opinion, too much freedom spoils the game, but I guess it can be fun, like monsters affecting also what goes on on the map.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:21 PM |
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Greiger [guest] from Heroes Community
Movement - other ideas Posted 12-23-2000 19:19
I think another thing which should effect movement is army size. If a hero has a large army it should decrease his/her movement, and a small army increase it. Also movement should start at a value and be decrease at each step for the creatures (number and type) currently with the hero, not just what the hero has at the start of the turn.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted March 23, 2001 10:21 PM |
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Greystole from Heroes Community
chaining Posted 3-18-2001 21:53
I agree that it's ridiculous to think troops could gain a whole day's movement by joining a new hero. Tactically, it would create a whole new game, because there would be smaller armies with lesser heroes fighting each other. Position on the map would be more important...by all means, tie movement into monsters as well as heroes...
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted March 25, 2001 10:16 PM |
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ONlY A GAME!
Yes, it is only a game, but since people spend a lot of time playing it is a good idea to make it the best possible so it keeps being fun.
So I say add realism when it helps gameplay and does not detract. Myself, I don't think hero chains are necessarily bad, and if you remove them you better compensate in the game so that it doesn't slow down. People like the fact that games can be played at a relatively fast pace. This should be kept in mind when empahsizing realism in any aspect of the game.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Karma
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 29, 2001 02:25 PM |
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Heh...yeah realism kiks arse
Yeah. I remember it well, when I last took my pet red dragon out for a walk. Cupcakes is its name... yup, those damn goblins ambushed us near the elemental conflux. Luckily I had my lighting bolt ready and gave'em a damn good spankin'. It was so realistic that I can still feel that day... yeah I miss those good 'ol times, when realism wasn't so big of a fuss.
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Aj
Hired Hero
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posted March 29, 2001 10:40 PM |
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yeah bu it makes the game more fun as to imagin that u have however many titans on your side who are kikin' a**!!
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HolyAvenger
Junior Member
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posted March 30, 2001 10:22 PM |
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Chaining's good!
I think chaining is a key strategic component to Heroes. No, it's not realistic, but then again most good strategy games aren't.
I too played Warlords and very much enjoyed it (although I think they've gone the wrong direction by adding complexity to the game). Assigning movement points to creatures as well as heros works well, along with allowing heroes to take advantage of creatures' characteristics (flying, etc.). All of that worked well; however, it made for a very different game!
Eliminating chaining would require lots of play testing...last thing I want is to uncover that I don't like HOMM 4!!!! Chaining is a strong strategic element to this game (one that I'm not very good at!!!) -- my vote is to keep it!
Holy Avenger
PS: In fact, I posted in another section that we should even make chaining easier by adding a "swap" button...if we keep chaining in the game, this would be extremely helpful!
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malkia
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted April 07, 2001 11:10 AM |
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Compare to the Chess Game
One of the first and most popular turn-based games was CHESS - it was not real. Indeed it was unreal. But is played thousands of years (and sorry for my bad written english).
First - why troops can be moved to every new hero - and they can still move - well, because if you have 266 griffins and split them into two 133 and 133 then you have to keep for both griffin groups how much they've travelled. How you gonna track when you want to combine them again (in the same turn?). This means that for every troop - means for every griffin you must keep info. So the game instead of keeping data for 233 griffins in one place - like 40 or 50 bytes - it must keep 233xSomeSpace. What about if you have 10000 skeletons - how this is gonna work over network - what about your save games? - what about memory... and many many other things.
As a game developer i talk technically about this problem - but I actually want to use the FACT that I CAN MOVE MY TROOPS to another HERO and it can go. It's FANTASY after all.
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 07, 2001 09:32 PM |
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What's with you people?!
The reason to eliminate hero chains is because we don't want a dumb game! Unrealism must be realistic. Peasant as level 7 with lightning specialty is another example of dumb unrealism. Hero chains are what I consider dumb unrealism because this way a slow peasant can only move 2 or 3 hexes on the battlefield per turn, but he can also travel the entire world over in a day? How can troops move a whole day with one hero, then the same day move another day with another hero, etc? Dumb dumb 
Here's the solution: heroes already have movement points. Now every stack should have a certain amount of movement points depending on their combat speed. Note to filesize-phobiacs: that means 2-5 bytes per stack 
How it will look in the game: a hero will be able to travel at the speed of his slowest troops (like he is now), but after the movement is done, the movement points of the slowest stack are spent. Say a hero also has a phoenix in his army, as well as peasants who have no movement points remaining. Phoenix has more movement points per turn, so it has about half more movement points remaining. Now a phoenix can be taken by an adjacent hero and moved a bit further, but once it's movement points are gone, that's it for the turn.
Pathfinding and logistics and other skills of a hero will affect how many points of movement are spent by creatures in a distance they travel on the map.
Now I don't want to hear that it's too complex because it's as complex as having different speeds for different creatures 
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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raZor_X
Promising
Known Hero
The mysterious Warlock
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posted April 07, 2001 09:47 PM |
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I agree with Valeriy, what we really need is realistic unrealism.
And about the moving points, it should be like Valeriy mentioned...
Keep up the good work.
raZor_X
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Mystery
Famous Hero
Hatebreeder
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posted April 08, 2001 01:33 AM |
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Leave hero chains!
The movement of the troops on the map should be unlimited, because that is the most simple thing to do and it adds strategies to HOMM, like the hero chain, its a strategy, and as u know, simplicity is what HOMM is famous of and it creates the HOMM spirit, so leave it as it is.
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D3@th t0 Fals3 m3Tal!
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted April 08, 2001 09:22 AM |
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Speeds up the game
One thing hero chains do tend to do is speed up the game...which is often very important in multi-player games.
So if you take this strategy out make sure it is compensated for in some way. You don't want to be playing a extra-large map for 20 hours and lose all your troops exploring and not be able to bring out re-enforcements for another six months...that isn't fun and hero chains are one way to speed it up. Magic is another way of course.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Valeriy
Mage of the Land
Naughty, Naughty Valeriy
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posted April 08, 2001 09:39 AM |
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Having to consider movement is a strategy. Just moving troops everywhere instantly by setting heroes 10 spaces apart is not strategy. Agree?
Spells like dimension door do the trick since they move the whole army between two points without them having to walk the distance + town portal and other things. So all is perfect without hero chains
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You can wait for others to do it, but if they don't know how, you'll wait forever.
Be an example of what you want to see on HC and in the world.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com
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