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| Thread: Homm 4 tactics |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 18, 2001 08:58 AM |
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Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002
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Homm 4 tactics
Yeah thatīs right 
I was figuring we could already tell eachother some tactics since we already know a lot about the gameplay in homm 4.
I have already posted a few tactics for homm4. Here are a few.
- There will be 7-8 slots for heroes and units to be in. A Stronghold town + a magic town (preferebly life or chaos magic) would be a great combo. You get all sorts of heroes in the new stronghold town and you can use several heroes in one combat. Hereīs the idea, use the 3 strongest units in your town (NOT the 1st level since they are allways weak) and use 4 heroes in combat. 2 Magic heroes and 2 Might heroes. The 4 heroes should be high level heroes, but one might hero should be strongest (main hero).
Use your might heroes and creatures to attack and your magic heroes to cast spells. Might heroes at high levels can be very powerfull. Use them to attack first hand vs very strong units like black dragons. Then you can use your magic heroes to ressurect/heal/bless your might heroes or severly hurt the opposing creatures.
Your units can be used to simply secondary attack the creatures your might heroes are attacking since they will not be retaliating anymore and wonīt hurt a bit. You have to use good tactics to make sure your magic heroes arenīt hurt since they are very important for this tactic, but if used well this could be one of the best tactics in the game.
- Use the weak/fast 1st lvl creatures to scout (duh, do i need to mention this? ) also use these to pick up gold. I read Maranthea mention this is possible. The conclusion here is your creatures can be used as heroes now, some have spell points also, but i donīt think their magic will ever grow as strong as the magic of a MAGIC hero will grow. However, there is still a max of 8 ??? to be on a map. (fill the ??? with creatures/heroes or heroes, if there is a max of 8 heroes this would mean unlimited # of creatures can walk the map wich would create chaos so this is very unlikely). So be sure not to send out all your 1st level creatures to scout or you canīt use your hero anymore.
- This one is defenitely my favorite Once you kill a hero, they will get uncountious but still recruitable. DO NOT imprison them!! Leave them where they are. These heroes cannot see a thing and should therefor be in the new fog of war system. When you lose a hero and can get him back, sure you will get him back! So when some dumb fool comes to get him (surely you wonīt risk taking your main in the fog of war risking he will be attacked) you take some fast strong creatures to go and guard this hero. When you imprison a hero he can be freed if your town is captured. But when you guard one of the oppīs heroes (preferably an important but not main) you can tell the opp he can get his hero back by giving you a x amount of money/resources hehe.
Well, thatīs it for now, i have more but i would like to get some feedback first
There are lots more things to do because you can also take mines but not build them since you need to buy some things to get the mines active first. Fun things to do there as well
Let me hear your thought on good tactics! Only fun tactics, no Hit and Run type of tactics pls.
Edit: revived!@
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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archdevil_666
Tavern Dweller
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posted July 18, 2001 01:37 PM |
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Hi cheesus
I like that u r ahead of time and thinking about possible tactics for homm4 allready. I have not given this so much thought yet, but i will. Anyway i like the idea that u use mulpile heroes in a battle and only a few recruited units from your town. I definetly think this could be a tactic to be worth a shot if the maps themselves let u develop multiple main heroes now that movement for armies might be limited ?
I can also recall from an image i saw from a battle on some page (dont remeber where or what page) but i think what i saw was a retaliation button ? could this mean that u have the ability to choose what unit to retaliate against?
(this would seem logical as a group of minotours or any other creature should not need to worry about the attack of 1 single pikeman. he just pushes that pike aside and concentrate on the bigger units charging behind the pikeman)
Anyway i am looking forward to more of your updates on strategies for homm4, its better u tell us now then we learn about them when its to late! "insert little yellow smiley man" (still havent learned how u insert those things ) he he
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 18, 2001 01:53 PM |
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hehe
Little yellow smiley man?
If you use quote reply you can see how itīs done
But anyway back to topic 
You say i am thinking ahead, this is not totally true. I just read what new options there will be in homm IV and think about the opportunities it will give us. I will give you another. Itīs really just a matter of thinking on your feet
I read you can use both heroes and creatures in an army. Units can move by themselves and so can Heroes (wich has always been the case). In homm III you take an x amount of heroes and you īchainī heroes to give troops every turn. This chaining wonīt be possible in homm IV since itīs no longer the heroes that are carrying the units. Realism is a big part of homm IV so the hero that was carrying units has now become a full army. This army moves together, not following anybody. As you are able to give creatures by letting heroes īmeetī in open ground. The creatures can now simply move to your hero/army theirselves! Now this is where thinking on your feet comes in
When heroes/creatures can move individually OR as a group, would it not be possible to assemble/disassemble entire armies while you are walking over the map? Think about it, when you used to have 2 heroes to take uhm.. letīs say the right and left side of a land, you needed a third party to keep switched creatures between heroes to give them enough strength to attack whatever it is you are attacking. This chaining is over guys! No more chaining hehe, i like that.
The thing you can do now (i hope) is disassemble the army you are moving and create 2 armies (having 2 heroes in 1 army and making a second army using 1 hero in both armies or an army of individual creatures and one that contains both heroes.).
This way you can make more armies, stronger armies, much more usefull armies and also cover lots of land in one day. I know this probably doesnīt make a lot of sense right now, but 3DO has probably planned it this way and i already figured it out Give me a challenge 3DO lol. Anyways, if you read it twice you should understand
Oh and Arch, this is how you make smilies : ) or you can just click smilies when posting.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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Frank
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 03:45 AM |
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It would be crazy if all heroes could each cast a spell every combat turns. if you have the initiative: mass slow enemy then use all your other heroes to blind enemy`s troops and the game is over. That doesn`t make much sens to me.
- Frank
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 09:01 AM |
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Yeah
I already was talking about some of these things in another thread somewhere on here. But what concerns me the most is somewhat as Frank mentioned, I think that is rather obvious concern though and likely 3DO thought of that, at least I hope so! I am hoping the only reason to include more heroes in a battle is if you are a magic town and get ahold of a might hero somehow or opposite etc, and your might heroes probably strong units themselves in battle. Also- morale and luck skills if they are in H4? I am not sure which 9 skills are they talking about. Anyway, including a heroes with just leadership and luck maxed out to let your main hero concentrate on more important skills. Also- if perhaps you include spell casting heroes as backups? So otherwise only 1 spellcaster per side can cast each round, but if you have low mana or certain guys know certain spells which others don't that way you can overcome the towns only being familiar with one magic system. Just have one hero cast Haven spell, then 2nd hero cast some Chaos lightening or something. Not only that, but if heroes can be killed or knocked out, it would be prime objective it seems to me to reach enemy hero and eliminate him in middle of battle, no more spells? Hmmm... seems too easy, but if it's possible you'd want multile backup hero to be able to take over where fallen hero left off.
Idea of combining armies after they left garrison is very important also. I heard that only 8 armies can be on map at once just as in H3, but it can be an army of one single trog or an entire swarm with multiple towns productions and 7-8 heroes unless there is also a hero limit in battles? Yet, if you can't divide armies in the field this will be a huge hassle to scout. Imagine you have your flankers out looking through fog of war to assure no ambush and you lose 2 of them, now if you can send some more next turn from your main army group, then you eitehr have to retreat for cautions sake or just march blindly forward while new scouts from your town rush as quick as possible to fill in the mising flankers. The problem once again however is movement, if you can moe entire army some distance, then seperate them and more the seperated one full distance... etc, it's still possible to chain just modified and not as useful, but still getting some creatures all the way across a map. Now, what if there is only a certain movement for each unit? Does that mean all heroes move the same amount? Or still depends on unit speed to hero movement? So if you have full army and move distance, but let's say dragons and hero have extra move, you can seperate from main army move and fight a battle, then move back just infront of main army and gain teh extra speed for next turn to repeat the process. Possibly even better than H3 where you had to buy a 2nd hero for this function.
One way to limit how many heroes in battle is just make them assume a spot in the battle formation just like any other creature group. Well, maybe that is why only 4 units per town at full production? If there is still 7 slot,s that leave room for 3 heroes. So also let's say you want another hero, you leave out your weakest link and put in hero there, I am guessing hero will have less HP then entire stacks of creatures, otherwise no one will ever use creatures and fight with only heroes. The whole thing being difficult for me to imagine is the play balance between Stronghold with no magic but more powerful and numerous creatures, and towns with magic, either magic is weaker, or creatures are much, much stronger. Interesting to see what they do.
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 19, 2001 09:58 AM |
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all very very good points
I will just start at the top.
To Frank:
You are so right, i totally missed out on that point. 3DO will have to come up with an answer for that. I think i know though. Here is my thought:
Maranthea once said heroes can become as strong as a black dragon. I figured they would have the strenght yet not the resistance (do they still have resistance in homm IV?), maybe all heroes are immume to spells. If a hero can become as strong as a black dragon... surely they (heroes) wonīt pose any danger since you will have more then 1 black dragon in your army. This case a hero would need all the spells they can get or they would be crushed in battle in no time. So maybe heroes are only effected by benificial spells and creatures are effected by all (unless they have natural magic resistance ofcourse).
To Ichon:
I donīt think there will be a hero limit in battle, if you have an army of only heroes you will probably be dead in not time. Spell casting on heroes will be limited since heroes would be totally useless otherwise. If you use 2 black dragons you will crush any hero, at least thatīs what Mara said. This still doesnīt make any sense though, because you would kill heroes first off, bye bye spell casting. There will be spell casting creatures in Homm IV though.
The modified chain you have thought of, is ofcourse the logicall thing to do. However you probably missed out on a point, Mara didnīt say this, but i feel it is the obvious thing to do. Realism is a big part of Homm IV, now what would happen if a slow group of monsters join a fast group of monsters? Yes, the fast monsters would have to wait up a bit or proceed without them. It would be unrealistic to say there would be no difference in speed in Homm IV so i doubt that will happen. When a slow creature joins fast ones, the speed is decreased so there will be less movement and when that slow creature is dropped, the movement will increase.
The movement removed should not be a fixed amount.
The amount of movement that is removed should be the amount of movement that is left on the creature joining the army. When a slow creature reaches an army but can only go on for another 5 yards, the entire army moves 5 yards. If the army decides this is a loss of precious time, they move on without the slow creature.
Having heroes in one stack is NOT a good idea. Their level and secundary skills are all different so it would be a very weird stack of creatures.
Also if there are 7 stacks there will be room for 2 heroes. You can buy 2 lvl 1 creatures and 1 of 2nd 3rd and 4th lvl.
Making a total of 5 creatures.
I agree it should be interesting to see the balance (if any) between stronghold creatures and other towns magic.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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pluvious
Promising
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 11:37 AM |
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Well it kind of sounds to me like because heroes can only be about as strong as one powerful 7th level creature (or 6th level...whatever) that you will have to choose between having multiple heroes in battle and strong stacks of creatures. I would assume creatures would have better attack power but heroes would cast spells and have skills that would make other units better (luck, offense, etc).
This seems very interesing to me. It will probably come down to picking between creatures that can protect your heroes and the heroes themselves. What is the best # of heroes in a group? One two, three, eight? Probably somewhere around 4 or less...but it adds a whole new demension to the game.
Maybe heroes have a high resistance to spells or some immunities also? This means you would need to attack them directly...and hopefully there would be many tactics that you could use to protect them?
I hope 3do has this all figured out anyway. Adding heroes in combat definately changes everything...more than really can be understood until the game is actually played.
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...Pluvious...
-The Storm Before the Calm-
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 19, 2001 06:05 PM |
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Yes, 2 level 1 creatures
That's right there are two level 1 creatures per town. Yet do we know for sure there will only be 7 unit slots in an army? I am not sure how they will add a limit to heroes in battle, but it seems to me there needs to be one or some type of cap on spell casting or what heroes skills apply to the armies units. I can't imagine it otherwise since if not then stronghold would be unbeatable with only town able to hire multiple towns hereos from the get go. Thet would be able to apply all town's bonus in battle if they could buy a hero from each town.
One thing I also still wonder about is what happens when a Asylum town conqueors an Academy let's say... now you own two different towns, but you can only buy one hero type still? Or you can only put one type of town armies with another one type of hero? So then the only starting town able to mix armies from dif towns will be Stronghold? That doesn't seem fair. Perhaps Stronghold is the only town initially to be able to purchase any town hero, but when other towns conqueor towns of a different type, then they can start adding dif heroes, but also only of the towns type they take control of, so they can't get any heroes, still somewhat of a disadvantage compared to Stronghold.
I wonder about hero availability also. It seems to me that heroes will no likely come without armies being an army in their own right? Well, maybe they still are purchased in tavern or however they do it in H4 with starting level 1 creatures also. Anyway, the thing is if you can buy heroes as many as you wish or not each week. Not only is this bad if there is no hero cap in battles(variation on gremlin rush all over again)but imagine if you are Asylum which has Chaos magic and many direct damage spells- you could just keep buying heroes and sending them out to die and basically H&R. Maybe expensive, maybe not... depends how powerful the magic is and exactly how the magic is learned by heroes in H4.
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Oldtimer
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Please leave a message after..
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posted July 20, 2001 04:32 AM |
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The important strategy to remember will be keep your hero alive.
I imagine that a big part of the game will be constructing defensive formations for you hero with some troops, while attacking the enemy with other troops.
I imagine that the 1st level creatures will be divided into an offensive specialist and a defensive specialist. So you make a protective wall with infantry, attack with air and ranged forces. Useing the hero to cast spells or use his special attacks. The trick will be on how experience is awarded. If all heroes and creatures(I heard that creatures get experience) get the same amount after a battle you could hold the hero in a safe reserve. If exp. is awarded to the creature who kills or damages the stacks you would want the hero in the thick of things.
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<PLEASE DO NOT WAKE THE OLD MAN!>
"Zzzz...Zzzz...Zzzz..."
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 20, 2001 06:07 AM |
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Experience per creature?
Where did you hear that each creature gets experience? that would be very hard to manage. Otherwise each new week your creatures experience would be diluted. Hard to imagine how that would work. If you are speaking strictly of heroes... now that is an interesting idea. If your hero doesn't get experience from end of battle but rather during battle? Hmm... not worth it against humans, but I could see the battles between your turns getting horridly long as players manuever their heroes around to get the final blow on every creatures group and get the extra experience. I'll just have to see how that works out.
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 20, 2001 07:31 AM |
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Creatures donīt get experience
As a matter of fact, it was one of my own ideas to let creatures gain experience. It is a lot of trouble getting this done, but itīs possible.
But creatures donīt get experience. Also heroes gaining experience in mid-battle would not really be much of a difference, the only difference is you can select your secondary skills in combat. This might let magic arrow do 20 more damage (adv earth + 1 spell power) and make you win the battle. Thatīs the only way i see it, but maybe i am wrong.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 20, 2001 01:44 PM |
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What mara said...
It's possible that Heroes have lots of hit points and defence but they don't do so much damage that they could hurt 7th level units really...
So heroes could fight efficiently against low level units but creatures would have to do the job against the big ones.
It would be madness if one 7th level unit could fly (Black Dragon) to your hero and just blew him away. This would mean that whole speak of how important hero development is, would be crap.
I mean 3do has propably thought this problem really hard. It would be insane that in every battle your hero would go unconscious and you would still win the fight with creatures. It would be rather funny to observe your hero to fade away in every battle and creatures just would take the victory to you. There is the problem of luck and morale too.
I think Cheesus that it's little bit too early to say anything because 3do perhaps have come up with solution that we have never think of.
Of course, it's intriguing to speculate bur HoMM IV isn't so far away, or is it?
(BTW this thing of almost zero info about the product to the public from 3do is made me concerned will it come out so early after all. There were "little" more facts out of the HoMM3 when it was this close to going gold...)
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Zud
Promising
Famous Hero
box worshipper
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posted July 20, 2001 02:15 PM |
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Just a thought / comparison
There was a recent thread somewhere here on an old game called masters of magic, I found the game and have been havin a bit of fun with it lately. The reason I bring this up is the heroes fight in this game also.
when first hired, they are weak as puppies and you have to do everything you can to protect them basically. as the game goes on they are almost invincible. I would forsee something a bit similar to this for heroes. seems that it must be this way or the heroes can clear early monsters much too easily
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Winner or Whiner?
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Sha_Men
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jack-Of-No-Trades
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posted July 20, 2001 02:22 PM |
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Yes...
Something like it was in Master of Magic...
I agree but they were almost too strong in the late game. Also in the MoM there were some creatures that would kick anybodys rear end like Paladins from Elven town (If I remember correctly) you could also create summon monster like Beholder (Auts!)...
Mara said that he was able to hardly kill some dwarves and halfling with his hero in the early game so it sounds like they aren't too powerful at beginning. Of course it must depend with what kind of skills and special hero starts as in earlier heroes.
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Catch the vigorous horse of your mind.
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Ichon
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted July 21, 2001 12:15 AM |
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Brings to mind Stronghold...
I wonder if Stronghold creatures aren't so much stronger until the higher levels or many structures built in the town. It would make sense in a way... building training arena's and such instead of mage guild levels, it would have to be signifigant improvements to match magic, but that would be only way to prevent early Stronghold dominance in every game.
I remember MoM, but the heroes did eventually get even beyond the H3 superheroes levels.
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deth8
Promising
Known Hero
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posted July 21, 2001 12:30 AM |
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I will wait
Good ideas.
Personally, I am waiting for the game before I think I know what is going on.
Maybe that is why I stink at playing. I wait to long to figure things out??
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted July 21, 2001 12:55 AM |
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i will wait for it to come out as well
But isn't it nice to talk about it a little already? I mean the possibilities are endless. I think the most logicall thing said was that heroes have little power but lots of stamina. That would make sense to me.
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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Titan_888
Known Hero
Wind of Change
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posted August 22, 2001 03:14 PM |
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8att/8def/8pow/0know
gosh you are all wiseguys. Me, i have hardly seen a homm4 picture.. i have no slightly idea how it will become, and to tell the truth.... I can wait till i have it installed on my computer, then there will be enough time to settle down with some friends and some beers and enjoy the game.
But i see i will be wayyyyyy behind of you guys in toh... maybe i will still be a cadet when you all are colonels. I wish all of you gl with homm4 and hope that though i will suck at heroes we can have some friendly games.
Regards from Titan_888
the one with less knowledge about whats goin on.
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Titan_888
Known Hero
Wind of Change
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posted August 22, 2001 03:19 PM |
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ups... did i say "cadet" and "colonel"?? LMAO..
i think i live in homm3 world...
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Cheesus
Known Hero
The Untouchable
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posted August 22, 2001 03:33 PM |
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hehe titan
You already think you will suck at homm IV, but who knows? I like to know what new features Homm IV has cause i am very excited about it. The tactics just came to mind 
Hope we can still have a beer together titan, even though you will only be a cadet, LOL (I am thinking ahead of tactics and you are thinking ahead of your rank in homm4 LOOOOL)
take care
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Win or lose, it doesn't matter. The way it happens is what is important
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