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| Thread: Wish: Expand Towns | |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted July 14, 2002 06:25 PM |
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Wish: Expand Towns
One of the most popular wishes for H4 was to suggest new towns. As it turned out towns were reduced from 8(9 if counting Conflux) to 6.
Comparing the amount of builds/upgrades between H3 and H4 you end up something like this.
H3 has
Hall: Village, Town, City, Capitol (2-3 builds)
Castle: Fort, Citadel, Castle (2-3 builds)
Blacksmith (1 build)
Tavern (1 build)
Marketplace with upgrade to resource Silo (2 builds)
Mage Guild: Up to level 3-5. (3-5 builds)
Creature dwellings: 7 + 7 seven upgrades. (14 builds)
Hoard buildings: 1 or 2. (1-2 builds)
Plus some more special buildings. (3-4 builds)
Total builds of: 29-35
H4 has:
Hall: Village, Town, City (2 builds)
Castle: Fort, Citadel, Castle (2-3 builds)
Tavern (1 build)
Shop (1 build)
Creature dwellings: Build 5 out of 8 dwellings. (5 builds)
Mage Guild: Up to level 5 with two annexes (7 builds)
Caravan (1 build)
Shipyard (0-1 build)
Special buildings (2-3 builds)
Total builds of: 21-24
The result of this is that you lose some of that Builder/Constructer feeling.
If you then consider that usually you have at least 3 of the buildings prebuilt (Fort, Tavern and one level 1), you'll get even lower numbers. The Stronghold is extreme in H4 since the seven builds for the Mage Guild and annexes is replaced with one for the Breeding Pit.
H4 is also a bit worse, since many of the builds are passive in their construction. For instance: you would have no need to build up a Mage Guild of level 5 until you have a Hero who can learn level 5 spells of that particular type. And you would not need the Annexes unless you have a Hero who studies that type of Magic. (Or you require the Annex as a prerequisite for a creature build)
The Citadel and Castle is only of use when you are attacked, which happens infrequently in games.The Ai seems to be very happy to build this early. I'm sure they would be useful in Multiplayer, but overall I'd rather use the money resources for some extra creatures or Hero tuition.
In H3 the situation is different. Almost EVERY Hero had Wisdom, so you usually built up the Mage Guild at some point to get the spells. The Citadel and Castle increased creature prodiution so of course you built them as soon as you could.
The H4 buildings seems to be there for only one purpose. To keep you from getting the level 3 and level 4 buildings too early.
The result is that there are not many builds in H4 that you feel is really worthwhile and which you must build early. Instead, you build what is required to build the creature dwellings. The builds are there to rob you of money and often it takes a long time for you to get them back. It takes for instance about 10 days to get your investment back when upgrading to a Town Hall. In H3 it took only five days.
Now for the wish. The cure for all this is not all that difficult. Simply expand the towns and add 5-6 builds (new or upgrades to existing ones).
What I wish for:
- Work to improve and enhance the existing backgrounds. Reintroduce the town "moods" so that necro feels like necro and haven like haven, regardless of which terrain its built on. All towns looks too alike as it is. (There are already many threads on this, so I won't mention more here.)
- Expand the towns. This is much more important than to have new towns. Expansion suggestions:
* Add at least 5-6 builds to each town.
* More defences (Arrow Towers, A Town Guardian that can fight, A Mage tower that casts a spell on attackers when the castle is besieged.
* More special buildings (1-2 more for each town)
* Reintroduce Hoard buildings (or a variant of them)
* Reintroduce some of the economical buildings like Artifact Merchants & Freelancer's Guild.
* Universities (for the towns that lack it).
* Enchance choices so that player can select between 3 creatures on the level 2-4. (See for instance my thread about about Terrain should affect Towns)
- Changes to Towns:
* Add something extra to the might town which is built in levels just as the Mage Guild. Possibly split the Breeding Pit in five levels for 3000 Gold each so you can get the production bonus in levels.
* Reduce the costs for the Citadel and Castle.
* New structures should have higher costs in resources and lesser costs in Gold. Right now the main use for Resource is to trade them for Gold.
- Enchanced functions for the Towns:
* Add a docking option for Shipyards. That is boats are kept in external shipyards and town shipyards, and you enter and exit the boat through these interfaces. This means no more problems in placing boats and no uncertainty in where the boats will be placed when built.
* Enhance the options for Mage Guilds. For instance you should be able to purchase Scrools and Parchments in them, and then have your creatures take them to your Heroes.
* Add place(s) for sacrificing/selling excess loot, creatures, and artifacts.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Darkspirit
Famous Hero
aka Zutus
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posted July 14, 2002 09:22 PM |
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All very great ideas.
However, adding new buildings will give you the feeling that the screen is overloaded, they'll be forced to remodel the interface, which they will never do.
But we can always dream, can't we?
It would also be nice if they add villagers houses like there used to be in homm3.
I want the asymmetric view back!!!
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Young moles appear to be in full dispersal which means there are more moles per acre than at any other time of the year
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted July 14, 2002 09:32 PM |
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Quote:
However, adding new buildings will give you the feeling that the screen is overloaded, they'll be forced to remodel the interface, which they will never do.
Not necessarily. if you do most things as upgrades then you get add-ons to existing buildings. So the effect may be that the exisiting buildings get bigger at least in some cases. It worked in that way already in Heroes 3.
The number of new buildings among the 5-6 would likely only be 1 or 2.
Quote:
But we can always dream, can't we?
Of course
Quote:
It would also be nice if they add villagers houses like there used to be in homm3.
There are some. The problem is that they're small and insignificant so you hardly notice them.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 14, 2002 09:48 PM |
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I am still amazed with Heroes IV how they could have gone back from so many buildings to so few. Well, if they thought there were too many worthless ones, they were wrong. The buildings shouldn't neccesarily come in handy ALL the time, but in certain situations. Good job with this thread Djive, I'll think up actual building descriptions next...
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 14, 2002 10:19 PM |
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Nice idea's
For meto get deep into this issue I would have to start from scratch in a way. I do like your view's though.
Less building option's now, than before. I'm not so sure. In HOMM3 there was not much different between toown's, except alignment's, and a building or 2.
Now there's big difference's.
Choosing a town in HOMM4 mean's your choosing your magic's, creature choices,extra strengths (+exp?speed?ect..).
Other benifit's like tresury, creature portals, stable's still exist. I could go on, but my memory is failing me.
In HOMM3 it's choose a town, choose creature path and the misc benifit/strength.
I would like to add that there's an artifact merchant in every alighnment (one of the pre built's)
I do agree with much of what you said, for instance the focus on might's lack. Wowww, great idea with the breedign pit.
ALso the university in town's. I wish they would allow infinate character build up's with the draw back of extremely high cost the more you go. For example basic, 2000,advanced 5000, Expert 10000 ECT.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted July 14, 2002 10:55 PM |
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"Less building option's now, than before. I'm not so sure."
I have not said the options are fewer. I've said that the builds you make are fewer. I HoMM IV, you are likely to skip building things for many days because the only thing you really need early on is the creature dwellings. Not so in HoMM3. You built almost every day if you could reasonably afford it. In HoMM4 is a matter of saving money and resources (sometimes several days) so you can make a single build.
"In HOMM3 there was not much different between toown's, except alignment's, and a building or 2."
If you just look at the builds I think you'll find HOMM3 more diverse than H4. The Mage Guilds in H3 was likely to give different spells between the towns, because some spells were disabled depending on Town Type. Blacksmiths gave different War machines. Resource silos gave different resources. Of course, sometimes the H4 buildings are more flexible.
"Choosing a town in HOMM4 mean's your choosing your magic's, creature choices,extra strengths (+exp?speed?ect..)."
Sure, but I see this as a pre-playing choice. It's not really part of the game, and if you have random towns you don't get to choose at all.
"I would like to add that there's an artifact merchant in every alighnment (one of the pre built's)"
I wouldn't call that an artifact merchant. The items are normal weapons or treasures. Also the items are not randomized. You get excatly the same. I'd say the shop is an extended Blacksmith.
"ALso the university in town's. I wish they would allow infinate character build up's with the draw back of extremely high cost the more you go. For example basic, 2000,advanced 5000, Expert 10000 ECT."
Perhaps not infinite builds but it might be nice if the tuition centres offered one particular skill to Advanced level. (And without offering the Pre-requisites as it does now.)
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted July 15, 2002 04:16 AM |
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Idea 1: Build's could be better in HOMM4
Idea 2: proposal of better build's
Idea 3: Let's talk about how and stuff. LoL
Right then.
There's alway's room for improvement. I addmit especially in HOMM4.
Something is lacking there, i cant pin point it. AnywAy'S
With the build's in general, I think it would be neat if you get a certain bonus for each individual path taken. Understand? If you got this and that level 2, 3 and 4, you'd have a building option which would bring uniquness to each town and creature path.
Also, something which would help with might, is many thing's I dont have time to explain right now.
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Largo_LeGrande
Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
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posted July 15, 2002 08:15 AM |
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I really like that shipyard thing (I posted a topic for it a month ago) and the magic guild selling scrolls and such. I also agree with the lower cost for citadel/castle/gold and higher cost for resources. But somehow I don't like the terrain thing. There should also be places to trade/sell/buy artifacts/creatures/prisoners.
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 -Largo has spoken-
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted July 15, 2002 12:29 PM |
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Excellent briefing
Well, I've read a lot of threads (I even started one about Town Simmetry when the first HOMM4 screenshots came to light) about town construction, but I must admit this one is the perfect briefing of my desires. If I were a religious man I will pray for 3DO to accept your ideas. This are the points I mostly agree:
1.- The mood of towns. Oh.. how I miss it!! I used to introduce HOMM3 to newbie gamers only by showing a savegame with all the towns fully built. That incredible variety... That wise selection of colours and ambient decoration... (and the same feeling is valid also for HOMM2). HOMM4 towns are tremendously impersonal.
2.- Useless buildings. A shocking truth. One of the previous posters said defensive buildings doesn't worth their cost. This is true in most of the cases. At least when battling the AI, the only towns where you should fortify the walls are those on the borderline of your empire. Fortification in H3 always was a priority to increase population, and I usually develped my towns almost to the maximum. Now there's a lot of buildings I can't afford at the beginning. And when I'm rich enough to pay them, I need them no more.
3.- Some players feel town pictures will be excessively full if 3DO will pay attention to this ideas... I don't think that, but this could be solved by two ways:
3.1.- Town scrolling (Disadvantages: will slow gameplay and we will loss the greatness of seeing the town in a one-shot picture)
3.2.- Town sub-screens. The same way you can group all creature purchasing features under the fort sub-screen, other similar buildings could be accesed form one unique clicking point.
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This is my truth. Tell me yours
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Darion
Promising
Famous Hero
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posted July 15, 2002 11:30 PM |
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I don't think that the town expansions would go to the point where there would be too much on the screen, BUT if that happens, I think your idea would work well for having different sections for different places:
1) One structure, say "The Castle" where you have the creature dwellings, morale and creature benefits (Rainbow, Grail Structure, Horde Buildings, Citadel etc.) as well as any other structures designed solely for war (Blacksmith (for war machines), Mage Guild, etc.)
2) Another structure, say "The Village" where you have your marketplace, artifact merchant, thieves guild, shipyard, potion shop, resource generators and organization here etc.
However, this might be too much clicking, if you have to click to get to the screen, then click again on the structure to perform the operation. Maybe there would also be an option to set a preference for one screen? This way, you could make your base either a money-generating capital, or a creature-generating fortress, or both if you want. It would lend itself more to the idea of the "empire" building part of the Heroes series.
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Largo_LeGrande
Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
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posted July 16, 2002 08:43 AM |
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Marketplace and Thieves Guild should be buildings, not options! It can just ruin a singleplayer (and why not multiplayer) maps!
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted August 15, 2002 09:21 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 26 Oct 2002
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Some more buildings that should be present...
Some more wishes for town structures:
- An alignment converter. A device with the capability (for a price) to convert creatures to a new alignement, changing the background of the hero or creature in question. Each town can convert only to the own alignment. Perfect for ruining the day for imprisoned Heroes!
- Add a stables to hire Hero mounts. (The mount improves movement and in some case combat values for the hero. Mounts has been suggested in a number of threads already.)
Edit: Revived.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Largo_LeGrande
Promising
Known Hero
from the Carribean
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posted October 26, 2002 02:35 PM |
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Yeah, I think we need alot of new town (and adventure map) buildings. Here's one:
Bank: a building where you could save (some or all of)your resources. The amount of the savings is increased by a certain percent every week. You can take the resources back whenever you want. The percent would be increased by every bank you own. It could be a external building too.
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-Largo has spoken-
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted October 26, 2002 07:56 PM |
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Some posters has mentioned that the interface might become crowded... Well, I'd say of course if you allow the sky to take up about a fourth or a third of the screen. I'm not against the sky but proportionally it took up less place in H3 in a fully built town. (Some towns had a lot of sky but placed dwellings in them, like the Portal of Glory in Castle.) H4 has a lot of sky but the only thing in the sky is clouds...
So some additional wishes for town construction related to the Fort and its upgrades.
Citadel increases town production with 20%
Castle increases town production with 50%
Prison is made an option which can be built if you have a Fort. If you have a Caravan and Prison, then you can Caravan prisoners between your towns.
If a player is eliminated, I would like a mechanism to release hero's who belonged to that player from prison. Perhaps, you can release the Hero in exchange for Gold or for the Hero tutoring one of your own Heroes in some skills.
Two Arrow Towers can be built and requires at least a Fort to build.
The strength of the Arrow Towers could increase with say 10 (Fort)/20 (Citadel)/30(Castle) XP worth of creatures per day (but which creature is placed in the tower will depend on town, probably best with a level 1 shooter if available). These troops are locked to the towers, and can't be recruited. If a player wants to take a town then any creatures in the towers must be taken out, so a recently captured town will have no defenders in the towers.
A Magic Tower can also be built and requires a castle. If built the Magic Tower casts a level 1 or level 2 spell from the town's mage Guild each turn. The Magic Tower doesn't need to be captured but can be destoyed during a combat. It has 30 defence and 100 hitpoints for each level that is built in the mage guild.
Moat should be a build options and should give damage if you enter it.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted October 28, 2002 09:11 AM |
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Quote:
Prison is made an option which can be built if you have a Fort. If you have a Caravan and Prison, then you can Caravan prisoners between your towns.
If a player is eliminated, I would like a mechanism to release hero's who belonged to that player from prison. Perhaps, you can release the Hero in exchange for Gold or for the Hero tutoring one of your own Heroes in some skills.
That's a good idea, Djive. In HOMM3, playing XL's, an important task was to check tavers every week if only to hire defeated high-level heroes. This was sometimes an unbalancing feature, but it could be tuned to be a very interesting part of the game.
Maybe every hero you have retained in a prison could be hired, but only paying a variable bribe. The amount of gold necessary to make a hero switch sides could be affected by a group of modifiers:
1.- Alignment. It seems natural that a Life hero is very reluctant to work for an undead kingdom. Allied alignments' heroes would be cheaper to hire.
2.- Prisoner faction's power. A prisoner from a powerful faction is still proud of it and confident he will be rescued. It could answer your treason proposals with despective words and pump up his bribe cost very high. On the other hand, a prisoner from a decaying kingdom would be less loyal. A prisoner of a vanquished empire would be the less expensive.
3.- Hero level.
4.- Your own faction's power. Working for a powerful kingdom seems a better chance for glory.
5.- Maybe the Diplomacy could be a final factor. If a GM Diplomacy hero enters a town, some of the prisoners could offer their services for a lower price...
At last, most of us agree that heroes are the true spirit of this game. So why not give them more chances to fight, despite the kingdom they serve? It would be a nice surprise (and a chance to shout at the computer screen with anger) to find one of your own superheroes leading an attack against you!! :-)
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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This is my truth. Tell me yours
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