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| Thread: How to develop a Hero in Heroes V |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 05, 2002 08:29 PM |
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How to develop a Hero in Heroes V
Or anyway my current vision of how this should be done...
=Recruitment=
When starting a scenario.
When you start a game most maps will give you an option to pick a start Hero for the alignment of your choice. At this time you will be able to select the hero you want.
-Taverns-
Normally, the Tavern offers you 1 hero/week from your own alignment. Each alignment has 4 basic classes and the Tavern has one hero of each of these four basic classes available for hire. Different taverns offer different heroes. The basic classes are Warrior, Thief, Lord, and Mage. Depending on the focus of the town these may be very different. A Warrior in a magic based town will likely have some magic skills, and a Mage in a might based town is likely to have some mundane skills. Heroes within a class are all different from another, because they have somewhat different secondary skills and also because they have different biofiles.
If your purse allow you can buy your Hero a speciality when the hero is recruited. The specialities which are available depend on the hero's alignment and the hero basic class.
Also as the game proceeds you will be able to upgrade the Tavern, so that it offers you more Heroes per week and/or Heroes of allied alignments. The Tavern upgrades are connected to building the Castle and City Hall.
-Starting skills-
The Hero starts with skills in two skill groups, and have a total of five skill slots.
-Starting equipment-
The blacksmith is enhanced and now offers more items. Moreover, you can also sell artifacts at the blacksmith.
-Animations-
The Heroes have animations depending on the following things:
- Gender
- Race
- Basic class
=Improving Heroes=
-Developing skills-
A hero can develop up to 8 skill groups, out of a total of 16 skill groups. Each skill has five levels, and each skill group has three skills. The skills are loosely connected with prerequisites within each group. The skill groups are roughly divided as follows:
- 3 groups for the warrior (One for Melee, one for Defence, and one for archery)
- 1 scout group (scouting and map movement skills)
- 1 thief group (stealth and thieving skills.)
- 2 lord groups (leadership/diplomacy/+1 more & nobility/estates/mining)
- 4-6 groups for magic skills.
- 3-5 groups for other mundane and arcane skills.
The Melee group offers skills to improve Hero's attack, and skill for improving allied creatures attack, and one additional skill.
The Defence group offers skills to improve the hero's hitpoints, and skill for improving allied creatures defence, and one additional skill. (Possibly Blocking)
The Archery group offers skills to give hero a ranged attack and to improve it, give allied creatures an improved ranged attack, and one additional skill.
There are three might groups to allow Warriors to pick several might skills and focus on them, and similarly there are three to dissuade mages from picking them. Mages would perhaps be tempted to take the defence skills but should be strongly discouraged from taking Offence or Archery and if they take them they can barely be called mages any more.
The magic skills groups are Death, Life, Order, Chaos. In addition one or two more schools may be included.
All Towns offer tuition in some skills, and tuition is also available in a number of adventure map locations.
When a Hero levels up to four skills will be offered as follows:
1 skill increase in your best skill group
1 skill increase in your second best skill group
1 skill increase in a skill group you have
1 skill in a new skill group.
If for some reason you can't be offered any of the above, you will get less than four choices to pick from.
To decide which of the existing skill groups will be offered then this depends on the following:
- Basic class, including alignment (25% weight)
- Hero biofile (25% weight)
- Random choice (50% weight)
When it is decided which new skills will be offered then this depends on the following things:
- Basic class, including alignment (75% weight)
- Hero biofile (25% weight)
For playability reasons all hero's must be able to defend themselves and escape being hit. For this reason the Defence level for the Hero is decided by the Level of the hero.
- XP table-
The XP required to reach next level increases linearly at higher levels instead of exponentially.
The bonuses for level becomes overall a bit lower since Heroes will overall reach higher levels.
-Advanced classes-
These are not detailed here. If they exist a lot stricter requirements to acquire them is needed. Perhaps 10-15 skills slots in two or more skill groups.
With this many skills it's not feasible to make an advanced class for every combination of two skill groups. Therefore fewer and more distinct advanced classes should be made.
-Other level-up options-
There is a need to tailor heroes when they level-up. To improve the player chances to get a good hero, the hero is offered one or more of the following at level-up:
- +5 additional hitpoints.
- +1 additional damage.
- +1 additional attack skill.
- +2 spell points
- +2% efficiency to all spells.
- +1 overland movement
- +1 combat speed
- perhaps a few other suitable choices.
The hero is offered 3 of these at random. The chance for any one of them to appear depend on the basic class of the hero. The player then gets to choose which one of the three the hero will get.
-Equipment-
Towns now offer mounts of various qualities and varying properties. Some mounts will increase overland movement, others will increase defensive or offensive skills, while others may aid the hero magically. Initially, recruited heroes are riding a donkey... Hopefully, the player will soon be able to help the hero buying a swifter mount.
Many new artifacts will be made, especially tailored to fit each of the four basic classes. Artifacts include for example:
-Knives that allows thieves to attack without retaliation (if hero's stealth is high enough), and does extra damage in case of rear attack.
-Robes which allows mages to improve their physical and magical resistance, but drains spell points each round of combat. (Improvement is decided by number of slots in magic skills)
-Banners for lords that give allied creatures a percentage chance for a second attack depending on the Leadership skill. (Leadership is a Lord skill, not a Warrior skill.)
-Weapons for warriors which increases attack&defence skills for all allied heroes/creatures with a percentage.
While all artifacts will be useful for every class, many of them will be much more useful if you have certain secondary skills. In other words artifacts will be more powerful if in hands of an appropriate character.
-Combat-
Heroes take part in combat. Heroes start out with higher defence than in heroes 4. (Starting out at 15 defence and getting +1 defence per level.)
- Thieves with Stealth gets the chance to hide. This will give them a percentage chance to become invisible to creatures/heroes depending on their skills and levels. If only hidden creatures remain on one side and they all choose to remain hidden for one full round, then the other side is declared victorious. Any hidden hero that moves or attacks is automatically revealed to all creatures on the battlefield.
- Lords with diplomacy gets the chance to sway hostile creatures as soon as the own army strength is higher. It no longer needs to be overpowering.
- Mages gets the chance to precast one spell before combat. The level of that spell depends on how many magic skill slots the Hero has.
- Warriors becomes more effective in combat.
Spells no longer last to end of combat as default. If a mage casts the spell then the duration depends on how many magic related skills the hero has. The duration could perhaps be 1 round for every two skill slots acquired. ( If a creature casts a spell then the duration depends on the number of creatures casting the spell.) Damage spells will work as now, but the damage caused will also be increased by the number of magic related skills possessed.
All heroes can exchange artifacts in combat. Exchanging artifacts costs a full round.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2002 10:01 AM |
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I hope NWC takes these ideas and implements them with great care
"The magic skills groups are Death, Life, Order, Chaos"
>> Or they can be the elemental schools. Not that it changes things fundamentally, but "slow" goes with "earth" very nicely, while "death" is not that intuitive. NWC had a good magic system in the MM games, I think there was no need to change it.
"- Lords with diplomacy gets the chance to sway hostile creatures as soon as the own army strength is higher. It no longer needs to be overpowering."
>> Of course only a part of the creatures should join the hero, increasing to 100% upon reaching grandmaster diplomacy. Otherwise, the skill could be game-breaking I guess...
"If a mage casts the spell then the duration depends on how many magic related skills the hero has."
>> If heroes level up quickly enough, that is a very good solution.
Some observations:
I think that damage reduction from magic spells is needed, and magic resistance should be toned down to some 75%. Why is that? Because 100% magic resistance for the warrior hero with high defense and additional hitpoint+blocking skills might makes him a perfect damage sponge. I think that some spells like slow, curse and similar should apply to heroes sometimes - no total immunity. All heroes should be immune to mind spells though (because hypnotize is too powerful).
So, considering that heroes are not totally immune to magic damage when spells like disintegrate come to play, their effect on heroes should be also toned down.
All very cool ideas and I think that is what everybody expected from more active heroes Especially I like the personalization of heroes. I still chose Crag Hack in HOMM4 when I started it up first time...
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted November 06, 2002 11:53 AM |
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Edited By: sikmar on 6 Nov 2002
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Great compilation! This is the kind of thread 3DO should examine once it has reached two or three pages of collaborations...
Quote:
When you start a game most maps will give you an option to pick a start Hero for the alignment of your choice. At this time you will be able to select the hero you want.
Far better than having a default random hero to start with, a hero you often dislike due to its class or even its physical appearance. The idea of choosing an initial hero works still better if heroes regain its lost personality and specialty.
Quote:
If your purse allow you can buy your Hero a speciality when the hero is recruited. The specialities which are available depend on the hero's alignment and the hero basic class.
It's a good option, although I still want heroes to be unique and this feature can make the same heroes with the same alignment and basic class. Maybe both ways could be possible at a time giving two specialties for a hero, one of them totally fixed by its biography and the other chosen at recruitment time. So you can always count on Sandro having the Sorcery pump up specialty, but you can also configure YOUR Sandro with the second specialty slot. This is also a way to balance powerful specialties. Kyrre, for instance, can keep his logistics specialty, but the second one would be chosen from a set of weaker ones. Another way to balance things is to assign different prices for different specialties, and anyway all specialties should be a good option depending on the type of scenario.
Quote:
Also as the game proceeds you will be able to upgrade the Tavern, so that it offers you more Heroes per week and/or Heroes of allied alignments. The Tavern upgrades are connected to building the Castle and City Hall.
Nice point again. I also would like to see useful tavern rumours. A high level tavern could offer a rumour per week, and possible rumours could be the following:
- "I've heard Alamar the Warlock has reached level 20 working for the red player"
- "I've heard blue armies are approaching the town of Steadwick"
- "I've heard green player has started growing black dragons"
- "I've heard Catherine Ironfist has recently reached grandmaster Melee"
And of course it will offer Grial search tips
Quote:
The blacksmith is enhanced and now offers more items. Moreover, you can also sell artifacts at the blacksmith.
Selling artifacts, scrolls, potions and parchments is a must. It would be very good to avoid duplicate artifacts, but make sold artifacts available for the other factions. This way, when selling your stuff you should consider not only the utility of the item and the cash you get, but also the threat this item will be in other hands.
Quote:
The XP required to reach next level increases linearly at higher levels instead of exponentially. The bonuses for level becomes overall a bit lower since Heroes will overall reach higher levels.
Nice. This way every late-game battle will still have interest for you, but at a same time your hero will not grow in power like crazy once reached a certain level.
Quote:
With this many skills it's not feasible to make an advanced class for every combination of two skill groups. Therefore fewer and more distinct advanced classes should be made.
This will reduce the quantity of hero animations, lowering designing costs, and will also enhance your class planification. Advanced classes could be reached when you complete two skills at grandmaster level, but reducing the total number of advanced classes and allowing different ways to reach a concrete advanced hero. Example: to create an Assassin you must grandmaster ANY combat skill and ANY thievery skill
Quote:
Towns now offer mounts of various qualities and varying properties. Some mounts will increase overland movement, others will increase defensive or offensive skills, while others may aid the hero magically. Initially, recruited heroes are riding a donkey... Hopefully, the player will soon be able to help the hero buying a swifter mount.
This original concept brings me a very logical question and a shocking idea. Why heroes forget their mount in the battlefield? They would look better commanding and charging with they horse, or whatever mount they use. They could also lose a turn mounting and dismounting to gain different combat options. Wow! Imagine a barbarian riding a battle elephant and dismounting to engage in close combat!
Quote:
Thieves with Stealth gets the chance to hide. This will give them a percentage chance to become invisible to creatures/heroes depending on their skills and levels. If only hidden creatures remain on one side and they all choose to remain hidden for one full round, then the other side is declared victorious. Any hidden hero that moves or attacks is automatically revealed to all creatures on the battlefield.
Then a logical choice could be to make a thief/general hero. Always hidden but increasing combat abilities of the army from a secure position. This hero could handle all the enemy cursing artifacts and army morale power-ups.
Quote:
Spells no longer last to end of combat as default. If a mage casts the spell then the duration depends on how many magic related skills the hero has. The duration could perhaps be 1 round for every two skill slots acquired.
Every magic specialty has a sub-skill for spellpower boost. Sometimes you are satisfied enough with your current spellpower and discard improving this subskills, but the choice will be harder if having many of this subskills could grant you larger spell duration.
Well, enough for today. You're post has been really inspiring, just when I was thinking all was already said. Thanks!
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This is my truth. Tell me yours
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted November 06, 2002 12:24 PM |
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Good post, Djive
A couple of things (I won't bother writing everything I agree with, so I'll just argue):
I don't think chosen specialties is a good idea. Personally, I like it when you get "stuck" with a hero, and I think the different heroes should have their own set specialties, to add to their personality and integrity. I think the mapmaker should decide wether you can choose any hero, or only between a few picked, or if it's random or a certain hero you start with.
And the linear level-up thing: Won't this either make the initial level-ups extremely rare or the end-game (on an XL map, for instance) ones all to frequent?
I agree that the xp required shouldn't grow exponentially, but I think linear has flaws as well. A middle road sounds like the best option to me.
A personal wish:
Bring the HOMMII music back (if nothing else, as a separate set you can choose instead of the default music) and if you have to model everything in 3D, try to let the artists imprint show more clearly on the units, buildings and surroundings than the case is in HOMMIV. I've never seen a more sterile and uninviting graphic scenery.
Wish well
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 06, 2002 01:10 PM |
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Ok.. A few quick comments.
Shaowei:
I'm not against an elemental system. The logical consequence of an elemental system is 4 magic schools. I can see certain advantages with life/death system because the town with the undead need special spells which doesn't fit directly into any other town. You could do as in H3 and disable spells in towns, but somehow that doesn't feels like the best way to do things.
On diplomacy
I prefer to keep the number of swayed creatures limited in a similar way to H4. Have both an XP limit and a maximum percentage of the XP in the enemy stack, then you get whichever is lower. A nice option would be to be able to select which creatures you want to sway. For instance if you manage to sway an army with Waspworts and Elfs then perhaps you want to take the Elfs before the Waspworts. Now you get the strongest creature first, and then just a few of the weaker one.
On spell damage
I believe you need 100% Magic Resistance or you will never be able to defeat large stacks of creatures with damage spells. Enemy heroes is the small problem here.
On the other hand for non-damage spells I could see that you may have a lesser limit than 100% but then you get all those mind-spells like hypnotize, berserk and similar which can mean game-over for the might hero. Also don't forget that mages will be able to boost their stats with a lot magically, and the boosted mage will likely be on par with the warrior.
Sikmar:
The advanced class idea was along the lines I had been thinking myself. I'm a bit unsure which is the best way to do this.
Heroes not on horse. I believe it's the way it is for three reasons.
1. It would take about double the effort to animate both riding and walking, including the transition between the two.
2. It's more difficult to animate riding heroes in a good way. (A personal opinion but horses and the like is more difficult to make than walking humans.)
3. You wouldn't want the increased size the hero has on the horse. I often cry aloud when my champions are blocked because I stupidly placed them in the back row and they cannot move between the troops in the front row. Increased size really is a big penalty for many creatures. (except perhaps hydra because of their multiple attack)
DonGio (also commented by Sikmar albeit a bit differently):
"I don't think chosen specialties is a good idea. Personally, I like it when you get "stuck" with a hero, and I think the different heroes should have their own set specialties, to add to their personality and integrity."
Good point. Perhaps, the possible specialities should be predefined and you just get the option to pay for the speciality, but not decide which of the possible specialities you will get. And there doesn't need to be a big amount of specialities available. 3-4 specials for any one hero could be suitable, adn two of those could be biofile related. One of these I think should be to improve combat values of creatures that are of the same sort as the hero.
"I think the mapmaker should decide wether you can choose any hero, or only between a few picked, or if it's random or a certain hero you start with."
Also a very good point.
"And the linear level-up thing"
I counted on it some time ago. If you assume 500 XP for level 2 and an increase by 500 XP per level (500, 1500, 3000, 5000, ...) I believe it would make a level 25 hero a level 30 hero. So not that many levels difference on lower levels.
Around level 30 it might be wise to increase the linear step to 5000 instead of 500 to counteract too high levels. Around level 25-30, the exponential system becomes so punishing that you will barely ever level-up from combat XP any more. 500 XP is a bit less (5/6) than 1 level 4 creature (weekly growth of 2). So to level up from level 30 to 31 you need to kill creatures roughly equal to 30*5/6 = 25 level 4s. (Assuming a innear increase of 500 XP/level)
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shaowei
Adventuring Hero
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posted November 06, 2002 02:15 PM |
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"Ok.. A few quick comments.
On spell damage
I believe you need 100% Magic Resistance or you will never be able to defeat large stacks of creatures with damage spells. Enemy heroes is the small problem here."
>>Ok, so the creatures with damage spells are the bomb. I guess 100% MR is needed then.
I also like the idea of heroes with set specialties. Gives the world a more solid feel. Too much freedom may be dangerous, look at Morrowind for example
Btw. Don't you find managing scrolls and potions tedious? I understand that they had to be in the game due to stronghold having no spells, but maybe that should not be done again in HOMM5. Give the "might" town a limited mage guild if needed.
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sikmar
Promising
Known Hero
The Moonchild
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posted November 07, 2002 01:15 PM |
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Quote:
Btw. Don't you find managing scrolls and potions tedious? I understand that they had to be in the game due to stronghold having no spells, but maybe that should not be done again in HOMM5. Give the "might" town a limited mage guild if needed.
Only a short reply this time to agree with you. I usually have so many useless potions, parchments and scrolls of magic schools my hero hasn't learned that I give them to a lesser hero (a town defender) only to minimally improve its defensive capabilities if attacked. If you could at least change them for money in the tavern or the market...
In the Gathering Storm expansion there are some new map structures. I don't recall their name, but they are "spell shops" dedicated to each magic school, and you can buy the scrolls you need and are capable of learn. Why not including one of this shops in the might TOWNS (There must be at least two of them, following the Stronhgold/Fortress HOMM3 example). Scrolls offered could be limited to level 1 and 2 of every school... Really easy to implement. This way might heroes with a low-level magic knowledge could learn some spells like summon boat or slow, but high-level spells would be almost unavailable for them.
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This is my truth. Tell me yours
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted November 07, 2002 03:22 PM |
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Djive:
Yes, an exponential rate is definitely the worst alternative. What you are proposing sounds good, but isn't strictly linear (if my math skills haven't rusted alltogether). Yes, I know this is picking, no offense intended, I don't really know where I'm going with this, thank you, bye-bye.
Level up well
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 22, 2002 07:19 PM |
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Another idea moved as requested
Heroes more customizeable
I'm down with RPG's, but I can play about anything that deal's with character statistics (tecmo super bowl 3 for example)
From the beggining of the heroes life I'm sure they did something that made them better than peasants. This reason, means we could bring in a hero as a person who never did anything, and dosnt know anything.
We should beable to select our heroes training background when we start playing BUT beable to have different out come's of this hero at higher levels and different paths taken.
1: Pick a hero. Background magics or might (for example).
This would determine the starting hero statistics
2: We select their ethnic background (race)
Dwarf human elf undead vampire troll reptile ect
(Sex would be defined by their pic)
3: After selecting, we define thier traits.
Each different race would determine bonuses and penalties but not to drasticly that it would matter much in later levels
Might:===============Magic=============Intelect
________________________________________
archery-------------Earth--------------Negotiation
Speed---------------Fire---------------tactics
Defensiveness-------Illusions----------spell learning
Leadership----------HOly---------------amount of spells
Melee----------------Evil---------------morale to army
ect------------------ect----------------ect
4: When we start playing we get a level 1-2 artifact representing our heroes background
5: Every level gain we get the option of power (attack, or spell power) or defence/knowledge. Power would be odd levels, and def/knowledge would be even.
note: there would be no penalty for a might hero learning a magic skill visa versa
6: At 2 levels determined by the map maker will this hero have an option to branch into something similar to him/herself but more unique and helpful bonuses and abilities available.
The determination of how many classes, and which one's would be limited, but realistic. Factors could involve any combination of the above mentioned besides race and sex.
The first selection at level 5 (default) could have 4 or more options
and the second option could have 2, atleast less than the basic upgrade.
all in all many classes would be available each unique.
Level 1 upgrades, and level 2 upgrades
Perhaps this bonus could be a uniqe skill that take's up a slot for skills designed only for this hero class.
Or perhaps there could be a slot for each heroes bonus ability depending on his/her class.
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this idea is in it's construction form and is not complete, but I hope to see thing's like this in HOMM5 and up.
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What are you up to
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 22, 2002 07:24 PM |
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Oh yes, there is one more thing.
Instead of 2 hero upgrade's it should be 3.
1'st level upgrade would make 4 or so classes available.
From there 2nd level would provide with around 2.
When the heroe becomes a grandmaster in this specialty skill, he would become the 3rd upgrade-demigod
Supreme lord.
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What are you up to
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2002 07:51 PM |
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"We should beable to select our heroes training background when we start playing BUT beable to have different out come's of this hero at higher levels and different paths taken."
Perhaps you shouldn't be able to freely pick the specials of a hero. It might lead to players always choosing the same special. Better then to attach each hero with the same specials.
"2: We select their ethnic background (race)
Dwarf human elf undead vampire troll reptile ect
(Sex would be defined by their pic)"
Most of the suggestions currently assume that heroes are animated on race and gender primarily. I'm against being able to pick race. This is one of the attributes which a hero should have and which shouldn't be changeable.
"3: After selecting, we define thier traits.
Each different race would determine bonuses and penalties but not to drasticly that it would matter much in later levels"
Traits is also something you should be attached to the biofile of the Hero. That is the selected hero decides the traits. You select traits be selecting hero, not the other way around.
"4: When we start playing we get a level 1-2 artifact representing our heroes background"
Well, I'd suggest instead that traits are what we get from the background.
"5: Every level gain we get the option of power (attack, or spell power) or defence/knowledge. Power would be odd levels, and def/knowledge would be even."
I prefer that choices is decided by the hero's class, or perhaps by the hero's biofile/traits. I'd also prefer getting percentage chances of which increase is being offered.
As I see it the Hero defence, hitpoints and damage should be increased each level. (Too make high level Heroes more durable.) The level-up options could be selected from:
- +5 additional hitpoints.
- +1 additional damage.
- +1 additional attack skill.
- +2% defence skill to all allied creatures. (Added to the bonus of the secondary skill)
- +2% defence skill to all allied creatures. (Added to the bonus of the secondary skill)
- +3% chance of magic mirror on any hostile spell directed at the hero.
- +5% chance for any allied creature to resist a hostile spell (up to maximum 50%)
- +2 spell points
- +2% efficiency to all spells.
- +2% efficicency on all spells cast by allied creatures.
- +1 overland movement
- +1 combat speed
- perhaps a few other suitable choices.
6: Perhaps. It depends on how many classes there are to begin with. if there are a lot of classes then I see problems with this. If there are a dozen or less classes then it would be doable. On the other hand, I'd not want to see advanced classes in h4 style. If that is the outcome, then I'd prefer the effort is put elsewhere.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Celfious
Promising
Legendary Hero
From earth
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posted November 22, 2002 08:50 PM |
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"We should beable to select our heroes training background when we start playing BUT beable to have different out come's of this hero at higher levels and different paths taken."
Perhaps you shouldn't be able to freely pick the specials of a hero. It might lead to players always choosing the same special. Better then to attach each hero with the same specials.
I didn't mean a special hero ability, I didn't say that anyway's.
Why not select wetheror not our heroes were aprentice mages, or apprentice archer's? HOMM4 is one of a few that has set stat's for heroes.
"2: We select their ethnic background (race)
Dwarf human elf undead vampire troll reptile ect
(Sex would be defined by their pic)"
Most of the suggestions currently assume that heroes are animated on race and gender primarily. I'm against being able to pick race. This is one of the attributes which a hero should have and which shouldn't be changeable.
This is a do or dont kind of thing. The races would affect stats (like in many game's again) at a small amount compared to a 5th level hero.
"3: After selecting, we define thier traits.
Each different race would determine bonuses and penalties but not to drasticly that it would matter much in later levels"
Traits is also something you should be attached to the biofile of the Hero. That is the selected hero decides the traits. You select traits be selecting hero, not the other way around.
Remember Djive my topic was "Heroes more customizable" not how to give the player no options.
"4: When we start playing we get a level 1-2 artifact representing our heroes background"
Well, I'd suggest instead that traits are what we get from the background.
And I'd suggest that an archer has a bow, and a swoardsman has a swoard
"5: Every level gain we get the option of power (attack, or spell power) or defence/knowledge. Power would be odd levels, and def/knowledge would be even."
I prefer that choices is decided by the hero's class, or perhaps by the hero's biofile/traits. I'd also prefer getting percentage chances of which increase is being offered.
Once again, customizing.. Giving the player more option's and a more unique hero was my idea.
As I see it the Hero defence, hitpoints and damage should be increased each level. (Too make high level Heroes more durable.) The level-up options could be selected from:
- +5 additional hitpoints.
- +1 additional damage.
- +1 additional attack skill.
- +2% defence skill to all allied creatures. (Added to the bonus of the secondary skill)
- +2% defence skill to all allied creatures. (Added to the bonus of the secondary skill)
- +3% chance of magic mirror on any hostile spell directed at the hero.
- +5% chance for any allied creature to resist a hostile spell (up to maximum 50%)
- +2 spell points
- +2% efficiency to all spells.
- +2% efficicency on all spells cast by allied creatures.
- +1 overland movement
- +1 combat speed
- perhaps a few other suitable choices.
Nice idea making the basic defence, hit points, and damage increasing with eatch level. Where's spell power for mages?
Those are also nice options for going up levels. I'm thinking which is available (and when) is determined by the heroes class?
6: Perhaps. It depends on how many classes there are to begin with. if there are a lot of classes then I see problems with this. If there are a dozen or less classes then it would be doable. On the other hand, I'd not want to see advanced classes in h4 style. If that is the outcome, then I'd prefer the effort is put elsewhere.
Figure this. A dozen 1st level classes, 2 dozen 2nd level classes, and each 2nd level class upgrades when the class abilities are GMd
That's basicly 36 classes unique to many distinct factors like race, skill's, and our statistics.
Which leaves 24 outcomes as a 3rd class level hero
You know.. (some examples)
mage-white mage-Holy mage
mage-black mage-Dark mage
mage-red-Inferno mage
ect
____________
What are you up to
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 22, 2002 09:50 PM |
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Edited By: Djive on 20 Mar 2003
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"Why not select wetheror not our heroes were aprentice mages, or apprentice archer's?"
Now there is an idea. This is perhaps not what you had in mind but if they made the stats I listed in section 5 depend to a great extent by the trait you selected when you created the hero then the result would be very good.
Example:
Warrior trait would give hero might related stats like +5 hitpoints, +1 damage and so on.
Mage trait would likely give magic related traits like +2 spellpoints.
Scout trait would likely increase movement.
And so on...
"This is a do or dont kind of thing. The races would affect stats (like in many game's again) at a small amount compared to a 5th level hero."
The comment was made because I want a genie hero to be animated as a genie and not as a human. If you assume that every basic class needs to be animated for every race (and that would seem to be the consequence of being able to select the race), then you get way too many animations in the game. (nwc will not be able to make that many quality animations in the time-span we're talking about.) 
"Where's spell power for mages?"
Spellpower depend on the number of secondary skills the hero has in magic skills. I'm not sure if it's best with +1 spellpower per skill slot, or +1 spellpower for every two skill slots, or something else.
The choice that lies closest is the efficiency of the spells. This efficiency is related to the spellpower also.
"Those are also nice options for going up levels. I'm thinking which is available (and when) is determined by the heroes class?"
Yes, and you could add a dependency to hero traits here.
"Figure this. A dozen 1st level classes, 2 dozen 2nd level classes, and each 2nd level class upgrades when the class abilities are GMd"
What happens if the mage starts taking only combat related secondary skills and started with a combat related trait? Does that hero still get new magic specials for advancing levels?
Most heroes tends to get a fair amount of both magic and might skills. In the past heroes installments it has often been a poor choice for a hero to take only might skill or only magic skills, and I'd expect that in future heroes you'd want to encourage heroes to learn both magic skills and might skills.
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Edited to Add a revised/alternative way of doing things. It borrows some things from the old ideas and adds some new twists.
Design Ideas - Heroes.
TOC
1. Recruitment
1.1 Taverns
2 Statistics
2.1 Template hero classes
2.2 Animations
3. Levelling Heroes
3.1 Development limits
3.2 Skill groups
3.3 XP charts.
4 Hero speciality
5 Hero equipment
Note: The system includes stats for heroes in combat but should work well for heroes outside of combat also. Simply remove the heroes personal stats.
Numbers are provided solely as examples. Do not look too much at these. Any idea will have to be play-tested and balanced anyway.
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1. Recruitment
When starting a scenario:
When you start a game most maps will give you an option to pick a start Hero for the alignment of your choice. At this time you will be able to select the hero you want. (Overall, the options that was present in H3 should be reinstated and I wouldn't mind seeing more options on picks.)
1.1 Taverns
Normally, the Tavern offers you 1 hero/week from your own alignment. Each alignment builds on specific races and have 2-4 basic classes and the Tavern has one hero of each of the basic classes available in your town for hire. Different town taverns offer different heroes. The basic classes offered depend on the focus of the town and may be very different. A warrior in a magic based town will likely have some magic skills, and a mage in a might based town is likely to have some mundane skills. Heroes within a class are all different from another, because they have somewhat different secondary skills and also because they have different biofiles and backgrounds.
If your purse allow you can buy your Hero a speciality when the hero is recruited. The specialities which are available depend on the hero's alignment and the hero basic class.
Also as the game proceeds you will be able to upgrade the Tavern, so that it offers you more Heroes per week and/or Heroes of allied alignments. The Tavern upgrades are connected to building/upgrading the Castle and Hall.
2. Statistics
Creatures and Heroes have the following stats (with short descriptions):
* Melee Attack: Applied to damage in the H3 way. 2.5% more damage per point.
* Ranged Attack: Applied to ranged damage in the H3 way. 2.5% more damage per point.
* Defence: Applied to all physical damage in the H3 way. 2.5% less damage per point.
* Resistance: Reduces spell damage with 2.5% per point, or gives 2.5% chance per point to resist any spell (hostile and friendly). Only spells cast on the caster are never resisted.
* Health: Hitpoints.
* Movement: Overland movement and movement on the combat map.
* Speed: Determines the order in which creatures get to act in combat.
* Sorcery: Every three points increases spell duration with 1 round. For direct damage, summon and illusions each point increases spell effectiveness by 5%. All creatures able to cast spells have a sorcery value. If neither of the two above bonuses are applicable then Sorcery reduces the Spellpoint cost by 2.5% per point, but never below 1 Spellpoint.
* Intelligence: Every point increases the amount of spellpoints which can be used per day for casting spells by 3. Do notice:
- This is an army limit valid per day.
- Every creature type is only counted once (No benefit of splitting stacks).
- You can freely merge/split creatures within an army and it won't affect available spellpoints. (All creatures of a certain type within an army always has the same amount of used and available spellpoints)
- Merging with other armies will always use the highest value for number of used spellpoints for the resulting stack.
The Heroes have additional stats which are applied to the creatures in the army. These attributes work by simply adding the value to all the stacks (heroes and creatures) in the army. In some cases such as for Health, Movement and Intelligence the value indicates a percentage increase of the existing value instead of an added value. If several Heroes have bonuses then only the best bonus is used for any one skill.
2.1 Template Hero classes
The Hero starts with skills in two skill groups, and have a total of five skill slots to assign. Two-three of these come from the basic class, and the rest is assigned for suitable skills as detailed by the biofile/bakground.
The stats of the hero is based on templates, and each basic class has its own template values. Below are some examples to demonstrate the principle.
Mage.
Attack. Base: 3. Added to army: 0
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 10+level. Added to army: 0
Resistance. Base: 4 Added to army: 0
Health. Base: 80+10*lvl Added to army: 0 (0%)
Movement. Base: 20 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Speed. Base: 10 Added to army: 0
Sorcery. Base: 4 Added to army: 2
Intelligence. Base:6 Added to army: 1 (10%)
Spellpoints generation: Base: 15 Spellpoints
Rogue.
Attack. Base: 6 Added to army: 2
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 2
Resistance. Base: 8 Added to army: 1
Health. Base: 120+10*lvl Added to army: 0 (0%)
Movement. Base: 24 Added to army: 1 (2.5%)
Speed. Base: 15 Added to army: 1
Sorcery. Base:0 Added to army: 0
Intelligence. Base: 4 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Spellpoints generation: Base: 5 Spellpoints
Noble.
Attack. Base: 4 Added to army: 1
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 1
Resistance. Base: 8 Added to army: 1
Health. Base: 100+10*lvl Added to army:2 (5%)
Movement. Base: 20 Added to army: 2 (5%)
Speed. Base: 10 Added to army: 0
Sorcery. Base: 2 Added to army: 1
Intelligence. Base: 4 Added to army:0 (0%)
Spellpoints generation: Base: 5 Spellpoints
Warrior.
Attack. Base: 7 Added to army: 3
Ranged Attack. Base: 5 Added to army: 0
Defence. Base: 15+lvl Added to army: 3
Resistance. Base: 4 Added to army: 0
Health. Base: 120+10*lvl Added to army: 1 (2.5%)
Movement. Base: 22 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Speed. Base: 12 Added to army: 2
Sorcery. Base: -2 Added to army: 0
Intelligence. Base: 0 Added to army: 0 (0%)
Spellpoints generation: Base: 0 Spellpoints
There will exist several more classes and classes offered will vary between towns.
Heroes in combat considerations:
The starting basic values, Adventure Map and artifacts are the means available to be used for giving heroes improvements which doesn't affects the rest of the army.
For playability reasons all hero's must be able to defend themselves and escape being hit. For this reason the Defence level and Health level for the Hero is decided by the Level of the hero.
It is possible for the templates to also decide certain aspects of the level-up scheme to be used. Barbarians might for instance get a +1 to Attack every second level, and similar considerations apply for other classes.
2.2 Animations
The Heroes have animations depending on the following things:
- Gender
- Race
- Basic class
Heroes of a certain races is limited to only one or a few towns, to reduce the amount of animations required.
3. Levelling Heroes
At level-up heroes gain a bonus in a primary stat. Percentages to gain a particular increase depends on the class template and may also be in part decided by the biofile/background. There is no choice involved for the primary stat increase. I believe it is desirable that most of these should add to the value of the full army and not a personal bonus to the hero, though both alternatives are possible.
Hero will also gain a new secondary skill. When a Hero levels, up to four secondary skills will be offered as follows:
A. 1 skill increase in your best skill group
B. 1 skill increase in your second best skill group
C. 1 skill increase in a skill group you have
D. 1 skill in a new skill group.
If for some reason you can't be offered any of the above, you will get less than four choices to pick from.
To decide which of the existing skill groups will be offered (item C) then this depends on the following:
- Basic class (25% weight)
- Hero biofile (25% weight)
- Random choice (50% weight)
When it is decided which new skills will be offered (item D) then this depends on the following things:
- Basic class (75% weight)
- Hero biofile (25% weight)
3.1 Developing limits
A hero can develop up to 6 skill groups. I've listed 10 groups below, though more might be needed. Each skill has five levels, and each skill group has three skills. The skills are loosely connected with prerequisites within each group. Currently I'm assuming (about) 10 groups with 3 skills in each. The same advancement restriction apply in all groups as within the Nobility, Estates, Mining group in H4.
Also all Heroes must pick either land based or water based bonuses and that choice affects all the skills in group 2 and 3 (below). All skills are limited to 5 levels.
There are several might groups to allow Warriors to pick several might skills and focus on them, and similarly there are several groups to dissuade mages from picking them.
The magic skills groups are Death, Life, and Arcane. (If needed there could be more. It's for instance possible to split Arcane into say Order and Chaos.)
All Towns offer tuition in some skills, and tuition is also available in a number of adventure map locations.
3.2 Skill groups.
Group 1:
*Offence: Increases basic damage with 10% per level (added to army)
*Defence: Reduces damage taken with 7.5% per level (added to army)
*Archery: Increases basic damage for ranged attack with 15% per level (added to army)
There are many ways to design this. An alternative is to simply have these to increase the Attack, Defence, and Ranged attacks with 4, 4, and 6.
Group 2:
*Tactics: Allows player to rearrange troops prior to combat. On the adventure Map it increases the permissible number of stacks in an army with 1 per level. Permissible number of stacks is 6 per default in an army and at least one of them must be a Hero stack. (The stack bonus applies both on land and water regardless if Hero is water based or land based.)
*Leadership/Seamanship: Improves morale in combat by +2 per level.
*Luck: Improves Luck in combat by +2 per level.
Group 3:
*Scouting: Increases scouting radius with 1 per level, and gives more information about the map.
*Pathfinding: Reduces terrain penalty with 20% per level. For water heroes it allows better interaction with the map: negating embark/disembark penalties, negating whirlpool losses and similar. If different water terrains exists it may reduce movement penalties in turbulent waters.
*Logistics/Navigation: Increases Movement for army with +4 (10%) per level.
Group 4:
*Stealth: As in H4 but allows the hero to travel with 1 stack per level of stealth without negating the stealth benefit. Stealth hero can cooperate to cloak stacks, so two Heroes with basic stealth can give an army with 4 stacks basic stealth (The 2 Heroes + 2 other stacks)
*Spying/Thieving: Allows heroes better interaction with the map. Allows them to visit and use structures in enemy towns without taking the town. This includes recruiting creatures, freeing prisoners in the prison and so on. Using the skill implies a risk for detection and a resulting combat.
*Reflexes: Adds +1 Speed per level. (Added to army)
Group 5:
*Nobility: As in H4
*Estates: As in H4
*Mining. As in H4
Group 6:
*Diplomacy: Similar to h4, but is cumulative for all Heroes in an army. Also allows swaying part of armies that are aligned but more powerful than the Heroes army.
*Peacekeeper: Adds +4 (10%) Health per level (Added to army).
*Magic Resistance: Adds +4 Resistance per level. (Added to army)
Group 7:
*Sorcery: Adds +3 Sorcery per level (Added to army)
*Intelligence: Adds 2 to Hero Intelligence level and 10% bonus to spellpoints for creatures in the army (per level of the skill)
*Mysticism: Hero generates 5 additional Spellpoints per day per level of the skill.
Group 8:
*Death Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Evil spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Evil spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Death spell for each level gained of Death Magic.
*Demonlogy: Places demon summoning spells in Hero spellbook. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment) and any evil aligned creatures in army.
*Necromancy: Allows hero to use necromancy to raise creatures after combat. Change: Necromancy now costs spellpoints to use, and the amount of Spellpoints invested in Necromancy decides how much you get from using it. (Limited by the number of XP in the skilled stack.) The skill is cumulative with the number of heroes in an army. Necromancy also increases the amount of Spellpoints points contributed by the Hero with +2 Spellpoints per level. Better options in what to raise creatures as. One creature being added per level. (Say: Skeletons, Zombies, Wraiths, Ghosts and Mummies.)
Group 9:
*Arcane Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Neutral spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Neutral spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Neutral spell for each level gained of Arcane Magic.
*Scholar: Places Create Illusion spells in Hero spellbook. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment) and any neutral aligned creatures in army. In addition this skill allows Heroes to trade spells between their spellbooks.
*Summoning: Allows hero to summon creatures of their own alignment / home town each turn. An interface to allow players to customize what is to be summoned and when is added to the game. Summoning also increases the amount of Spellpoints points contributed by the Hero with +2 Spellpoints per level.
Group 10:
*Life Magic: Allows casting of level 1 "Good spells". Adds +2 to Sorcery for "Good spells" per level (Added to army). Hero learns one Life spell for each level gained of Life Magic.
*Charm: Allows Heroes to persuade some creatures in opposing armies to join your cause for free. Adds +2 to Intelligence to own hero (regardless of alignment) and any good aligned creatures in army.
*Resurrection: Allows hero to use resurrection to raise creatures after combat. The amount of HP resurrected per spellpoint is increased by 30% for each level of Resurrection. Change: Resurrection now costs spellpoints to use, and the amount of Spellpoints invested in Resurrection decides how much you get from using it. All heroes and Angels can use their spellpoints to resurrect at the end of the combat. Resurrection also increases the amount of Spellpoints points contributed by the Hero with +2 Spellpoints per level.
3.3 XP table
Apart from reintroducing the display of how much XP the hero gained at end of combat, I'd like to see a remake of the XP table.
I guess all of you know which one is the real one. I've seen similar level-up tables in other games and I think they work well. An exponential level-up table on the other side doesn't work well. The really big difference would be seen if you continued to show the XP needed to reach a little higher level. It will take some effort to level up, but at least you don't need an insane amount of XP. As you can see if a Hero would expect to reach level 25 before, the hero would now reach level 30 instead. It's difficult to get beyond level 25 in a scenario, but I guess it can be done if you keep playing. The really epic campaign would probably have heroes around level 50, and this without planting 20 Trees of Knowledge on the map.
1 0 0
2 500 1000
3 1500 2000
4 3000 3200
5 5000 4600
6 7500 6200
7 10500 8100
8 14000 10300
9 18000 12900
10 22500 16000
11 27500 19700
12 33000 24100
13 39000 29300
14 45500 35500
15 52500 42900
16 60000 51700
17 68000 62200
18 76500 74800
19 85500 89900
20 95000 108000
21 105000 129700
22 115500 155700
23 126500 186900
24 138000 224300
25 150000 269100 +12000 : +45000
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26 165000 322800
27 185000 387200
28 210000 464400
29 240000 557000
30 275000 668100
31 315000 801400
32 360000 961300
33 410000 1153100
Also: The game difficulty should not increase monster stacks and reduce Xp per monster. They really have to come up with something else for hard difficulty.
– Among the suggestions.
* Let the AI take fewer losses when fighting neutral monsters. This can be done for instance by counting out the combat result twice and then select the result that is best for the Ai. Players RELOAD their games, so why not give the Ai a similar capability.
* Give the Ai extra resource and money. This ensures that the AI develops better which is a big problem with the Ai for the moment. This was how H3 worked at higher difficulty.
* Rather than giving player less XP, I'd suggest increasing the XP computer hero gains for defeating monster. Everyone likes beating a high-level character.
* The AI seems to punish the AI player by letting AI players take casualties to their higher level monsters first. This is unnecessary and often weakens the AI considerably.
4. Hero speciality
My idea for a hero speciality is as follows.
"Magic" Heroes are offered to specialize in one spell of any level. They can cast this spell at half the cost. The spell is put in the Hero's spell-book and becomes available for casting when the Hero has the required skill to cast the spell. (Thus the spell may be of a higher level than 1. Do note that it may be a wise idea to restrict specializing in some spells. It will for instance not be possible to specialize in the Demon Summoning spells.)
"Might" Heroes are offered to specialize in one creature. These creatures gets an extra boost when in the Heroes army.
A few more rules to specialities which may be considered.
You may only specialize heroes native to the town where you recruit them.
Specializing a Hero is optional and will increase the recruitment price with 50%.
5 Hero equipment
The blacksmith is changed back to H3 format but and will offer War machines which may be ‘equipped' by a hero. Blacksmith still offer armour and weapons. (Some potions may also remain, though most of these should be taken away.)
Towns now offer mounts of various qualities and varying properties. Some mounts will increase overland movement, others will increase defensive or offensive skills, while others may aid the hero magically. Initially, recruited heroes are riding a donkey... Hopefully, the player will soon be able to help the hero buying a swifter mount. The mounts may be tied to a special town dwelling such as a Stables, but could also be tied to a creature generator in some cases.
Upgraded versions of Taverns offers Henchmen which will boost the hero values in different ways. Each type of tavern offers different types of henchmen, and any tavern will offer only a limited amount of henchmen (like 1 per week). Henchmen will work very similar to artifacts, but are a little easier to interact with in an RPG way.
The hero has a limited number of war machines, mounts and henchmen. Some skills could possibly increase the number of slots available.
A benefit with all of these three in the case of heroes remaining on the battlefield is that they could serve as extra lives for the Hero. Instead of the hero dying, a henchman could die instead and hero survive to see another day. Having henchmen also allows for better RPGing. (Right now the heroes being restricted to interact with artifacts and other heroes.)
Another possibility is starting with a henchman and have a special loss condition for losing the henchman.
____________
"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 25, 2003 09:45 AM |
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Thanks, Djive, for posting this here.
I believe it is possible to have a hero in combat. Not only does an advanced and intricate development help with the individuality of a hero, it also helps the uniqueness of a hero. If a hero has the capacity to learn many skills, or learn them at different rates, or have certain skills on that hero class can learn, it makes the experience a whole lot more enjoyable. Having a hero that was just a replica of all the others in its class to begin with was too bland. A new age of heroes needs to be introduced.
1. Recruitment
So what you are saying here is that the Hero recruitment system should stay very simple, as in Heroes III, excluding no class or alignment.
I would have to agree partially. I actually liked the Heroes IV wheel of recruitment better than 2 heroes appearing randomly, and changing every week. One thing I did not like was the encouragment on being able to choose any hero from the 6 classes available. It just said to me that NWC didn't care what hero you chose, and that they were all the same.
I would rather have the recruitment wheel, but the heroes change every 2 days. This way, you can save up for the hero if you don't have enough gold the day he or she appears.
1.1 Taverns
I like the ideas of upgrading the tavern, and having different heroes in different taverns. One thing I do not like so much is being able to just 'buy' a hero specialty. I think the specialties should be less generic, and be tied-in with the hero's biography, as they were in Heroes III.
2. Statistics
All of the criterea for a hero and creature you have listed seem very sound to me. I like the introduction of the resistence and the intelligence factor. It is obvious the latter will not be as high in creatures as in heroes.
It is expected that the heroes will have additional statistics that will be added on to the creatures in the army.
2.1 Template Hero classes
As you have pointed out, the Heroes IV system for the amount of available slots should be ample for Heroes V aswell.
From what I've read, the hero classes look very unique, and match their personality well. You have also used the new criterea you implemented well, and defined their classes very justifyably. For example, mage has 6 intelligence, warrior, 0.
One aspect I do disagree slightly on is that health and defence are monitored my level. I should think that it would have more to do with their class types, since magic resistence, which is basically the magic defense, is much higher on a mage, while the barbarian has lower intelligence also. This shows two negatives for the barbarians, which means there should be some compensation. For example, the Barbarian gain an extra 5 HP every level, and an extra 1 attack and defence, as you mention later.
2.2 Animations
I would have to agree here. The animations were slightly too generic in Heroes IV, as a fireguard looked the same as a pyromancer. Although the animations were very nice in my opinion, they needed to make the sub-phylums a little more unique.
3. Levelling Heroes
I very much agree with the first paragraph. By having the personal statistic raised by their background or biography gives extra depth to the game, and also means that not all heroes from the same class with the same skills will advance in the same areas. Excellent.
"A. 1 skill increase in your best skill group
B. 1 skill increase in your second best skill group
C. 1 skill increase in a skill group you have
D. 1 skill in a new skill group."
These are exactly my thoughts on the situation. It seems very logical to have it this way, and it also gives you much more decision over what skill your hero can increase in next. It also allows you to develop a certain area without having to divert off on another path since the game didn't offer you your desired choice. You cannot go wrong with this method.
For item C,I would have to conclude from it that the random percentage is exceeding my thoughts. 50% is too much to be left to the computer. I think 40% basic class, 30% Biography, and 30% Random would be more suitable in this area.
Item D, however, is very good, with the basic class as 75% and biography at 25%.
3.1 Developing limits
6 primary skills sounds very 'sound', pardon the pun there, but as there are 10 in total, with 3 sub groups, that means there are 30 skills all up. I would like to see maybe 2 associated loosely with each town(hero class), so maybe 12 or 16 skills would do. (having 16 would probably incline me to think that 8 primary skills would suffice).
Skill Groups
All of the explanations sound good, but I think the different types of magics should have their own class, as in Heroes IV, as that would help make up the 16 classes, and I don't think that Arcane magic, etc. Covers them well enough. I am hoping that magic is a big part of Heroes V and I would like to see individual groups. They worked well for me in Heroes IV.
The array of skills you have mentioned are very good, and I now that they are just short explanations, so I don't have to say anything there.
3.3 XP table
"An exponential level-up table on the other side doesn't work well."
That's for sure. Imagine how much experience would be required at the higher levels!
The one that you have done (one the left) is much better than the real one, but no one can tell really how good it is until it is play tested etc. But that said, I think that level 33 should be about 650,000, rather than 41,000. I have a feeling that 41,000 would be a little too quick. But certainly 1153100 is much too slow for a game such as Heroes V, or IV for that matter.
Concerning Champion levels, etc.
I always play my Heroes games on champion, and the higher creature numbers certainly make it a great deal harder for me to accumulate mines and resources and such. I do agree however that it is slightly lazy on NWC behalf, and the actual engine must be improved in the jumps from intermediate to expert, etc. (Also bring back the chess pieces from Heroes II, please!!!!!!!!!)
The ideas you have presented concerning this issue are quite good. Basically, the computer should be given the human player's capabilities, but a few cheats are presented on the way. Giving the computer more experience for winning battles seems an easy way to make the more powerful. But actually making them win those battles may prove a more difficult task.
4. Hero speciality
The ideas seem to fit well with your unique perspective of Heroes in Heroes V. But, I would take it for granted that the hero already has a specialty, being derived from his background? I think that is crucial in having specialties.
I also applaud the way in which you have split the heroes, even though it is very similar to how it was in Heroes III, it is a very good system indeed.
Yes, having a specialty should increase the price of a hero, but not by 50%. You must remember that there are other factors, such as the level of the hero, and amount of artifacts and skills the hero posseses.
5 Hero equipment
Yes. Heroes III format is much better than Heroes IV, since IV didn't include any war machines or first aid tents. But the inclusion of swords and some potions is a must. I think a hybrid III/IV blacksmith will work best.
Mounts seem like a good idea, and have been discussed by many people over the years. For Chaos, for example, a Nightmare will travel further than a regular horse. It is a good idea to modify the movement a hero and an army has.
The henchmen idea sounds fairly good, and I think that there should be a skill relating to the number of slots, and henchmen that can be purchased.
One other thing that I'd like to mention is that there should still be as many heroes as desired in an army, and that they still take place on the battlefield. It would be a waste to have the heroes so detailed, then not have them involved in everything they could be.
These accumulation of ideas put together by Djive are very sophisticated, but they need to be in order for the hero system to work well. If we can take these ideas, and add a few more details in, we could almost have an ideal system for heroes. But, nothing is certain until the specifics of Heroes V are known for sure.......
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted March 25, 2003 03:49 PM |
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Nice to see this "old" thread revived, and good to see you around and about, Hydra.
Just wanted to add some comments and thoughts.
Stealth: I would like for heroes with stealth to not necessarily be exposed when they move or attack. A hero with grandmaster (or the HOMMV equivalent) stealth should have a certain chance of both moving and attacking without being seen, depending on what creatures and skills the opposing forces can turn up.
And another idea, which I know I'm not the first to bring up, but which nevertheless all of a sudden struck me as an excellent one:
Heroes in combat. This should be optional. Allow me to elaborate:
Before battle you'll be given the choice of whether or not you'd like your hero(es) to participate in combat.
If not participating, your hero will still be able to affect you troops' morale and luck and such, although to a smaller extent than had he been in the battle. He can also cast some spells (I'm not completely decided here), at least beneficial spells, perhaps also unfavourable spells (slow, etc.), definitely not direct damage spells.
He can't be directly attacked while passive, maybe targeted by some spells.
However, the hero will at the start of each round be given the opportunity to join the battle. If opting to do so, he will spend his turn joining the battle (appearing somewhere on the battlefield), and will not be able to perform any actions until the next round, but will be vulnerable to physical and magical attacks.
When participating in battle, the hero's effect on his troops morale and such will increase (dramatically?). He will also be able to attack and cast damage spells.
It will also be possible for the hero to retreat from the battlefield, to (re-)assume a passive role in the fighting. However, this would require that the hero was at "his" side of the battlefield and without enemies in adjacent squares. This would also require a full turn.
If the hero's army loses the battle, what happens will depend on the hero's current battle status. If he's active, he'll function as a regular unit, and will be killed or kill the enemy. On the other hand, if he's passive, he'll be captured, due to his not being ready to fight.
This just came to me right now, so there may be obvious flaws or things that need correction/adjustments that I have overlooked.
Dixi
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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neon
Tavern Dweller
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posted March 26, 2003 07:09 PM |
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[quote"Might" Heroes are offered to specialize in one creature. These creatures gets an extra boost when in the Heroes army
or in one type of monsters - if you divide them in 6 classes - light infantry (squre,skeleton,minotaur,vampire..), heavy infantry (ogre, crusader..), cavalry (champion, unicorn..) , flyers (harpy,griffin..), spellcasters and magic creatures (fairy dragon, efreet, medusa and other exotics) and ranged (elf, monk..)
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted March 26, 2003 09:44 PM |
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ThE_HyDrA:
2.1. Do note that the level increase for Health is higher for the Warrior than for the Mage. (But both increase their health each level.)
3. On Item C and D. The reason the biofile influence is fairly low is that I envisage only one or top 2 skills to be listed in the biofile. The basic class may similar be aiming at perhaps another 3-5 skills, while the random choice has to take into account all skills.
On Item C you could just as well have random choice 100%. Since you already have to have the skill group opened, and the offering won't be in any of the best two skill groups It's fairly safe to say that the skill offered is not central to the most central to the character. Therefore, to keep the character different when developing the hero subsequent times you need a fairly high random factor here.
3.1 You should be able to take about half the skills. I've cut down on skill groups from earlier suggestions. Before I had 16 groups with 3 skills, but there was a bit too many similar skills.
4. Don't take numbers too literally. I didn't mention the price of the hero. So how do you know 1000 Gold is 50% increase?
DonGio:
I'm not sure about cloaking the Hero when attacking. I might perhaps agree on a certain chance of making an attack without retaliation. But after an attack, you have to be visible. Also Stealth heroes have to appear at some point in combat or the other player might be unable to elminate them. (You can't require the other player to develope a GM Scouting hero so that they can win a game just because you refuse to fight with your GM stealth hero.)
I've seen the side-line idea beore. The main disadvantage with it (as I see it) is that this is the hardest solution to balance, between different types of characters, and the one hardest to write a good AI for the computer for.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
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posted March 27, 2003 07:03 PM |
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Sure, half the number of skills obtainable for the hero would suffice. Though, say that you increased the number of skills to 40. The good thing then, would be that you could have a truly unique hero. On the other hand, it´s difficult to come up with 40 equal basic skills. Should it fail, the game would be a lottery since the chance of getting the skill of choice would be lower. However, if one could come up with 40 equal skills (equal in usefulness that is), then I believe that would improve the possibility of retrieving a purely unique hero. I'm not saying we should have 40 basic skills, for I have no opinion in that matter. I'm just saying that there is no practical limit for how many skills you should include. That is, if all skills are equally useful as well as unique. Except of course, the game balance work from the NWC side.
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Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
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ThE_HyDrA
Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
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posted March 28, 2003 09:49 AM |
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More of my opinions.....
I think we all know, whatever happens with the heroes in Heroes V, it is going to be very difficult to please everyone. Some like them in battle, some don't. The inclusion or exclusion of heroes from the battlefield will have a significant effect on how far the hero can be developed, and the influences for some skills. A hero restricted to the adventure map is a more simple hero than one who has the privelege of fighting on the battlefield.
DonGio:
Yes, I've been around, but not about.
"stealth should have a certain chance of both moving and attacking without being seen, depending on what creatures and skills the opposing forces can turn up."
Yes that seems like quite a sneaky prospect. But, I think that this Grandmaster effect should be overriden by the opponent if one possesses maybe advanced or expert scouting or advanced or expert stealth. Otherwise this just becomes too powerful and stealth will be a very sought-after skill, more so than the others.
"If not participating, your hero will still be able to affect you troops' morale and luck and such, although to a smaller extent than had he been in the battle."
I would agree with you here. I would imagine if that a hero were to stand on the sidelines and cheer you on, it wouldn't be as beneficial or inspiring to the creatures on the battlefield if he were actually out there setting an example. It seems like a logical aspect of your idea.
Concerning casting and being hit by spells, I think it should remain as normal, since I don't see any reason why he couldn't cast Direct Damage spells. On the other hand, I agree with you in you saying that the Hero can be hit by some spells. Spells that decrease morale, or luck, and modifiers like speed and defence can be cast while on his horse, (and they carry on to when he gets on the battlefield) but Direct Damage spells should be disallowed to be cast on the hero while he is on the sidelines. This would almost defeat the purpose of him being there in the first place.
"However, the hero will at the start of each round be given the opportunity to join the battle."
I would agree with the implementation of this issue. I find it just that it takes a whole turn to do this. An idea that I've had is there is a secondary skill for Heroes in Battle. It allows you to select a place on the battlefield, and at higher levels, the hero may attack in the same turn.
"the hero's effect on his troops morale and such will increase (dramatically?)"
Hmmmm. I think troop luck and morale should increase, but not too dramatically. Possibly about a 50-60% increase. If there is a too dramatic increase, morale and luck, being as important as they are, may just tempt the hero onto the battlefield too much and may take the hero away from the sidelines for too long. (If these changes are going to be made, there is no point just having the hero in battle or on the sidelines for the whole time.)
"this would require that the hero was at "his" side of the battlefield and without enemies in adjacent squares."
I would agree with you here, DonGio. The process of retreating to the sidelines should be the same as getting onto the battlefield. The aspect of the hero having to be on his side of the battlefield is quite a fair one, I think. It would seem to farfetched if the hero could scoot back to his saddle from the other side of the battlefield. If your idea is to come true, it would be humourous to see how the hero gets back on the horse.
"If he's active, he'll function as a regular unit, and will be killed or kill the enemy. On the other hand, if he's passive, he'll be captured, due to his not being ready to fight."
This also looks quite sound. But with the former, if he is killed, he can be placed on the ground where another hero as the opportunity to pick him up and resurrect him, similar to Heroes IV. This is because he did the noble thing and actually fought for his cause. (It would be unfortunate to lose such a great hero forever)
I am still undecided about this substituting the hero issue. I'm not entirely sure it solves anything. One thing I am certain on is that if this occurs, it will be very interesting, and it will be much more work for the developers down there at NWC. I can imagine this idea would be much more difficult to implement than the hero solely staying on the battlefield, or solely on the sidelines.
Djive:
"2.1. Do note that the level increase for Health is higher for the Warrior than for the Mage. (But both increase their health each level.)"
That just about rectifies that issue then. I thought it was slightly strange that the mage and the warrior gained an equal amount of HP per level. Another point on this issue I have to make is that the mage should have a capacity for higher spell points than the Warrior. E.g. the Mage has a maximum of 999 while the warrior has a maximum of 100.
"The reason the biofile influence is fairly low is that I envisage only one or top 2 skills to be listed in the biofile."
I see where you're coming from here. But I still think that the background of the hero should still have a fair part to play, because that is really their life before they became a hero. I don't believe that a 5% increase is too drastic, therefore it should stay as I had previously said. 30 30 40 sounds good to me, and the random percentage is still the highest, as it should be, in my opinion. Also you notice that the basic class has been increased, too.
"On Item C you could just as well have random choice 100%."
No, I think that the way you originally put it is better. For a new skill, I think that 100% random makes no relation to the hero's past at all, and contains too much luck and chance. I think 25% for the biography is modest, and it is not high by any means of the imagination. But I still believe that the 'randomness' still has to be apart of the experience, so 75% sounds good. The random factor is fairly high and the biographies will all differ, so that seems about enough difference to me.
"You should be able to take about half the skills. I've cut down on skill groups from earlier suggestions. Before I had 16 groups with 3 skills, but there was a bit too many similar skills."
I agree with the first sentence, and that is what I also suggested in my first post on this topic. I also concur to what you have said about the number of similar skills if there were to be 16. While you are one person, the team at NWC has at least 10, so it would be safe to say that 10 minds are better than 1 (or 2 in our case) so I think they should be able to get the job done without to many similarities. Also, with a new and expanded game, there should be more aspects of Heroes V to focus on.
"Don't take numbers too literally. I didn't mention the price of the hero. So how do you know 1000 Gold is 50% increase?"
Yes, but I am taking it from my past experiences with the Heroes Series that a Hero costs between 1500 and 2500. It is fairly safe to say that it should remain about the same for Heroes V. I did not mention 1000 gold, though.
LordSkeleton:
"On the other hand, it´s difficult to come up with 40 equal basic skills."
I don't imagine for a team of maybe 10 that 40 skills will too hard to think up. The positives that you have listed in your posts vastly outweigh the negatives. Isn't a truly unique hero what Heroes IV lacked? I don't we can afford to lose that again in Heroes V.
This thread has a myriad of very good suggestions for the upcoming Heroes V game. If only one of these can be carried on to the Heroes V game, I will be very happy.
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"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.”
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Lordskeleton
Adventuring Hero
The really REALLY bad guy
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posted March 28, 2003 06:08 PM |
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Well if there were to be 40 unique skills then I doubt they would be all balanced... earth magic in H3 is a terrifying example. Town portal, Disintigrate, Ressurection, Slow etc... I liked the way they went back to the single/mass spells that were in H2.
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Vad gagnar det en människa om han vinner hela världen men förlorar sin själ?
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