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| Thread: Lets make Counterspells! | |
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2003 11:51 AM |
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Lets make Counterspells!
This idea is taken from Magic The Gathering, which is, by the way, the best game in the world. Anyway, this idea will be a good addon no matter if they choose to have only one hero (likely so if they aren't anymore on battlefield) or multiple like in H4. The idea would be better for latter though.
The counterspells work so that if the hero hasn't yet cast spell and opposing hero tries to do so, the hero can, provided he has counterspell, respond to the spell. If the player wants and the counterspell gets through, the spell that opposing hero did cast is countered and thus doesn't have any effect. But if the hero has already cast a spell in this round he can't opt to counter the spell. Casting counterspell will eat the hero's turn like any other spell would.
If there are more heroes on the battle field, it may make such a scenario possible that counterspell is countered thus making the original spell get through.
For example: Player blue has two heroes (Alamar and Solmyr) on the battle field while player red has only one (Aislinn). Aislinn waits and it is the turn of Alamar, where Alamar chooses to cast Prayer. Aislinn casts counterspell to Player that would negate Prayer's effect. But then Solmyr casts counterspell to Aislinn's counterspell, countering the counterspell, and Prayer gets through.
Note that if player red have had another hero with counterspell, he would have choosen to counter the counterspell that countered the original counterspell and then Prayer wouldn't have effect.
There are some ideas for different counterspells.
Force Counsterspell (level 5, only viable if H5 is done H4 style): Counters the target spell. Force Counterspell cannot be countered. The hero who casted the (countered) original spell loses half of his/her present spell points.
Counterspell (level 4): Counters the target spell.
Power Drain (level 3): The player chooses the amount of spell points used to the Power Drain. Then opponent has to pay that amount. If he can't, all his spell points will be spent and the original spell is countered. If he can, the Power Drain will not counter the original spell.
Vitality Drain (level 3): Same as Mana Leak except heroes spend health instead of spell points. Only viable if heroes in HoMM5 have health.
Mana Leak(level 2): Same as Power Drain except that the opposing hero can choose not to spend spell points (whereas the original spell is countered).
Forced Agony (level 2): Hero will sacrifice himself in order to counter the target spell. Forced Agony cannot be countered.
Spell Spike (level 1): Counters the spell that is cast on single target (hero or creature stack).
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 03, 2003 11:56 AM |
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This actually sounds like a good idea!
BUT: The 'Agony' spell wasn't that good. after all, who wants to sacrifice their hero to counter a 2nd lvl spell??? i know i wouldn't...
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2003 03:56 PM |
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Actually, the level of the spell describes the level of that particular spell, not the level of spell it can counter. Agony, like other spells can counter spells of any levels.
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terje_the_ma...
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Disciple of Herodotus
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posted May 03, 2003 04:03 PM |
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Ah, I see. So a lvl 1 spell could counter a lvl 5? That doesn't sound too logical, but..
I guess that when this 'Agony' spell kills your hero, and if this hero has 'Potion of Immortality' or similar, that one would ressurect him?
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"Sometimes I think everyone's just pretending to be brave, and none of us really are. Maybe pretending to be brave is how you get brave, I don't know."
- Grenn, A Storm of Swords.
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DonGio
Promising
Famous Hero
of Clear Water Mountain Clan
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posted May 03, 2003 05:14 PM |
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This would require a whole new battle system. Spells couldn't take effect before all heroes (or creatures with similar abilities) had had their turn, and how would this effect direct melee or ranged damage?
Should this also be delayed to the end of the round? Or not?
What then if one or more of the heroes with spells pending are killed that round? Will their spells be canceled or not?
And if they are canceled, what happens if one of the surviving heroes had cast a counterspell on a now dead hero? Does his turn just vanish, or does he get a second chance to take a new action?
This works in MTG, I doubt it would work well in Heroes. The only way I can see it incorporated is if the spell worked as an undo button, i.e. that the sorrow spell is lifted, or the skeletons raised lowered( ) again, or the killed halflings resurrected, and I think implementing a feature of this dimension would cause quite a stir, and other problems would arise.
Like should a level 1 hero with the counter spell be able to counter the level 30 hero's level 1 spell? It could easily be a very powerful and unbalancing spell.
But keep coming up with ideas!
Dixi
DonGio
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There are 10 types of people: Those who read binary, and those who don't.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted May 03, 2003 09:58 PM |
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You got it wrong DonGio. Counterspells can be incorporated to Heroes battle system easily. It works like this: if hero A casts a spell then hero B can cast a counterspell countering the spell if the counterspell gets through, but it is still basically the turn of the hero A. So, player Red doesn't need to wait until it is his turn to counter the spell, he gets chance to do it immediately if he so wishes.
The spellcasting system will work like in previous heroes except that heroes with counterspells can now instantly interrupt and counter the spell being cast by opponent. Casting counterspell will eat their turns like casting any other spell would.
When hero is casting spell the game will check whether opposing heroes (or why not creatures as well) have somekind of counterspell, have they used their turns already (if they have, they can't cast counterspell) and enough mana to cast the spell. If this conditions are checked, the game will ask from the player does he want to counter the spell and shows all counter possibilities.
The box asking to counter should be something like this (text version ):
Counter the spell?
(Picture of Counterspell) (Picture of Power Drain) (Picture of Counterspell)
By Alamar 18.............By Solmyr 24.............By Solmyr 24
No\Yes (something like ask question in heroes 4)
The player chooses the spell he wants by selecting one of the pictures and clicking the yes button. If he doesn't want to counter the spell he can simply click the no button. The number after hero's name means how much spell points he has left. Picture of spell would have number in it showing how much mana it takes to cast the spell.
I'll show another example of how the battle goes when counterspells are present (in brackets is the speed of the hero/creature and thus their turn order as well as the counterspells availabe for the hero):
Player Red: Phoenixes(12), Alamar(6, Counterspell), Solmyr (8, Power Drain), Sprites (7), White Tigers (9).
Player Blue: Jeddite (7, Agony Spike), Troglodytes (5), Black Dragons (10), Gem (9, Counterspell).
Round 1.
Player Red has the fastest creature (lets say that there are no negative or positive morale bonuses in this battle) and attacks Black Dragons with Phoenixes. Black Dragons in their turn attack Phoenixes. White Tigers move closer to Black Dragons. Gem waits. Solmyr Casts Chain Lightning to Jeddite. Gem casts Counterspell. Alamar casts Counterspell countering Gem's Counterspell. Jeddite casts Agony Spike to counter Alamar's Counterspell, thus sacrificing himself. The Chain Lightning is countered and has no effect and Jeddite is now dead. Since all heroes casted a spell, they have all used up their turns. Sprites move closer. Troglodytes attack Phoenixes. End of the round.
Round 2.
Phoenixes attack Black Dragons and Black Dragons attack Phoenixes immediately after. White Tigers attack Black Dragons. Gem waits. Solmyr waits. Sprites attack Black Dragons, Alamar waits and Troglodytes attack Phoenixes. Since Alamar is slowest of heroes and all heroes have waited, he moves first. He Casts Resurrection on Phoenixes. Gem replys by casting the Counterspell, where Solmyr chooses to cast Power Drain to Counterspell, spending so much mana that Gem can't afford to negate the effect of Power Drain. So Gem runs out of mana and Resurrection gets through resurrecting Phoenixes. End of the round.
Round 3.
Phoenixes kill Black Dragons. White Tigers attack Troglodytes killing them. Gem drinks Mana Potion thus using up her turn. Solmyr casts Lightning on Gem. Note that Gem cannot cast Counterspell since she already used up her turn (to get mana that is). Sprites attack Gem killing her. End of the battle.
I hope this made Counterspells and their functions clearer for people.
Quote:
I guess that when this 'Agony' spell kills your hero, and if this hero has 'Potion of Immortality' or similar, that one would ressurect him?
Yes.
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Ovni
Tavern Dweller
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posted May 05, 2003 02:28 AM |
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glup
nice idea!!
p.d: i'm also a MTG player and counterspell is my favorite card 
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted June 15, 2003 11:57 AM |
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Hmmm... I don't know about this one. My main objection is that it slows down game-play, getting an option to counterspell everything the opponent casts.
It would be better if they instead gave every creature a certain chance to resist the spell being cast, possibly also including friendly creatures. (Only spells which the caster cast on himself/herself would be free of spell failure.)
There are already several spells that affect spells so I don't see the real need to introduce this feature, especially since it makes user interaction more cumbersome in combat.
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Thunder
Responsible
Famous Hero
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posted June 15, 2003 03:50 PM |
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I don't like that every creature would have chance to resist the spell, it would include more luck factors to the game. I think Heroes already has enough of those. Whereas Counterspells will include more tactical elements to the game.
However, Counterspells are not so cumbersome as one might think in the first look. To have an option to cast counterspell all of these options must be valid:
1. Hero must have counterspell.
2. Hero must have enough mana to cast counterspell.
3. The spell can be countered.
4. The counterspell can affect spell of that type (i.e Counterspell that would counter only a spell that will effect only single target, couldn't counter Armageddon which affects all targets on the battlefield)
5. Hero must not have made other action than wait in the current battle round.
6. Hero must be alive.
To make it even less cumbersome, the hero having counterspell (and can cast it as well) can use "Wait and if opponent casts spell counter it", or better term would be simply "Counter", which is similar to the "Wait" button. So, if player presses "Counter" and opponent casts spell then the hero will automatically cast counterspell and uses up his/her turn. If opponent doesn't cast spell, hero will have still chance to do something after waiting. However, if the player presses "Counter" button when the hero has already waited, it will use up hero's action for the round and the hero will automatically counter any spell (but only the first opponent casts in the case more than one spell is cast by opponent after player pressed "Counter"), until the hero's next turn (casting counterspell in the next battle round before hero had has his/her turn will not use up hero's action for that battle round).
Having "Counter" button would mean that the player does not have an option to counter spell like I've previously said. If the player wants to counter possible enemy spell he has to press "Counter".
With more than one heroes of the same player using the "Counter" button, the one who pressed it first will counter the first enemy spell or counterspell (in the case enemy pressed "Counter" and you were casting spell) being cast.
If more than one different counterspell is present in hero's spell book, the game will automatically decide the best possible counterspell from the counterspell. The game will be taking mana cost of the spell into the account. In the case the player wants to choose the counterspell himself/herself, there is a Counterspell Icon next to the "Counter" button where the counterspell can be chosen. The game will then cast that counterspell.
I think I "modified" the counterspell concept very easy for the player to handle, and all he needs to do if he wants to (wait to) cast counterspell he has to press "Counter" button and sometimes choose the counterspell for the game to cast, the game will handle everything else. It won't slow down the combat much more than choosing to "Wait".
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GrunanCross
Famous Hero
King of the Underdark
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posted June 19, 2003 07:31 AM |
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why bother wif that, cuz it will take too much time to make that into the game.
3do would rather put out 5 more homm than to make a good onelol
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CountZero
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 19, 2003 09:59 AM |
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I really really like this idea. I have always loved playing MTG and appreciate the concepts that would need to be incorporated into HOMM to make counterspells possible.
If the idea was taken up in a future version of HOMM then it leads to the possibility/probability of a duel mode separate from scenarios or campaigns.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth, to discuss Heroes 5, go to Temple Of Ashan.
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