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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Attacking the Map vs opponent
Thread: Attacking the Map vs opponent This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 14, 2001 09:00 AM
Edited By: Hexa on 26 Jan 2002

Attacking the Map vs opponent

Well, I've been absent awhile trying to improve my rating in Age of Kings expansion(finally got in the top 500 on zone-that's harder than is sounds ok?). Anyway- I notice a common theme throughtout many of these debates on tactics, and towns types and spells etc is what you should be using different things for.

To my mind the best way to differentiate is what they are used for.

Attacking the map things are logistics, resurrection, chaing lightening, mighty gorgons etc- they allow you to power through map creatures and gain experience and artifacts with minimal to 0 losses quickly.

Fighting an opponent it different. I include logistcs also under this area and as such one of the few really strong thing, because it's so versatile- surprise attacks, easier defense of kingdom, and faster experience and artifact gain traveling to locations quicker.  However, things such as resurrection, and single spells are less valuable because there are counters to them when you fight a human enemy. Same reason Mighty Gorgons aren't as strong- they are still very strong against creaturs, but for that very reason the battle revolves around neutralizing them for your opponent. When I see my opponent has Fortress I look for three things straight off- Rampart secondary town, Necro secondary town, and a spell guild with slow or blind lastly. Ramparts Dendroids are perfect counter to Mighties- I include them at expense of higher level unit even. They will tie up your enemies Mighties for at least two turns(usually3-4 ifyou hve decent #'s), often all you need as most of the fortress other units lack the punch to do anything without Mighty support. Necro is not affected by Mighty and if you have a couple Ghost dragons or lots of V-lords or D-knights you've got some Mighty killers. The negative is the hit on morale you most absorb, but you also effect enemies morale containing them in your army is it's almost equally balanced. Spells- Fortress almsot always has dispel or cure so slow and blind aren't as effective, it just makes opponent waste a round in spel casting, but if the Mighties get a free strike on your 7th or 6th levels, it more than makes up for that, so you have to neutralize those Mighties.

Those just some examples, it is different for every town. Also- trogs are weak really, but you have to consider the's available- only centaurs(higher durability so most of them live from start)and perhaps gremlins will have equal numbers(skeletons have higher or should, but that is seperate topic)so in fact trogs can remain useful. Of course, almost always you would seek to remove your level ones unless in the 1000's and repalce with higher level creature from a secondary town, but if you can't do that, then trogs aren't the worst you could have by far. Also- on impossible maps or 160% even sometimes they are a huge boon.

Now- Dungeon heroes are the best no question. I would choose a Dungeon hero with a creature specialty for a creature I don't have many times over my own towns heroes- in fact I often have.  Necro heroes are second best, but only related to their town which I think is debatable tier town since so much depends on map size and if it's two level map or length of game etc. Inferno or Fortress have to make the next best heroes to my mind. Tazar is always good, as can be the witches etc. A few truly outstanding inferno heroes if you get the right skills, and of course since a lrag epart of hero worth is what skills tehy are liekly to get, you usually will get those good skills with them. Stronghold heroes are great if you have either no need for magic or else very high magic boosting artifacts(+4-10 to power and knowledge). I rate Rampart lowest overall since almost all their heroes has one uneeded skill to start with already, and frequently get a 2nd or 3rd when you are building them. Castle has decent hero but the high probablity of leadership or navigation etc some useless skill coming up, and no truly exceptional magic users... Adia with bless barely makes grade, and only Lorinth or whatever his name is with prayer are really useful(he comes with learning though)Tower heroes... only their specialties save them from the bottom. SOme very good ones but almost all of them come with unwanted skills for a main. Best secondary support hero though in general, scholars, gold, and resource hero plus they can have many, many magic bolts good for scouts etc.

Lot of different factors, and combining each for the situation is what makes a good player, all towns can bee good in right situation, and with right uses made of them. Also all towns can be horrible- Dungeon and Conflux suffering least from this handicap(both resistant to magic in some way and strong in either magic or might or both). Dungeon/Conflux is strongest town on most ToH maps, but on random or 200% setting can run into many difficulties. Castle or Necro 2nd best in same terms. True town strength doesn't become apparent until 200% I think. On those terms, Fortress, Inferno, and even Rampart often come into their own.

Also- it's hard to seperate all the towns in a real game, symmeterically even there are arguments. Magic, vs might, vs heroes, vs creatures are debatable on merits of towns.

Edit: revived!@
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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 14, 2001 09:26 AM

>>Now- Dungeon heroes are the best no question. I would choose a Dungeon hero with a creature specialty for a creature I don't have many times over my own towns heroes- in fact I often have.>>

Dungeon heroes are good but they're not the best. Overlords won't learn Water skill, that makes them somewhat unreliable against crafty (human) opponents. There're just as many bad Warlocks as the good ones.

>> Tazar is always good, as can be the witches etc. >>

Tazar will die miserable death if a lot of the battles take place in castle because hero with Armorer skill will receive double damage from the arrow towers due to a bug. All of the witches but Andra are close to useless. And they don't have many good skills to learn either.

>> I rate Rampart lowest overall since almost all their heroes has one uneeded skill to start with already, and frequently get a 2nd or 3rd when you are building them. >>

Like whom? With the exception of Malcom, all other Rampart heroes are good-great heroes with good skills to start with. Kyrre, Thorgrim, Elleshar, Ivor, Ryland are excellent heroes with excellent secondary skills to start with. Gem may have useless specialty but she's the only one with Summon Boat spell which can be quite handy depending on circumstances.

>> Castle has decent hero but the high probablity of leadership or navigation etc some useless skill coming up, and no truly exceptional magic users... Adia with bless barely makes grade, and only Lorinth or whatever his name is with prayer are really useful(he comes with learning though)>>

Gee, Adela's definitely one of the top three heroes out there. Her starting Diplomacy is unquestionably useful. But more importantly her Bless specialty can be a killer when she's reached high level. It's almost definite with expert Water, Marksmen will do as much damage as Titans when blessed by high-level Adela. You really will be awed by how much damage Storm Elemental can do when blessed by high-level Adela. The damage's disgustingly high!
Loynis is way overrated. Not only Prayer costs a lot of spell point and he won't be able to cast it as often as you like, he starts with useless Learning. Ever notice any significant bonus gain from Prayer spell cast by Loynis on your level 7 troops? That's right, none.

>> Tower heroes... only their specialties save them from the bottom. SOme very good ones but almost all of them come with unwanted skills for a main. >>

Tower has excellent heroes too! Solmyr and Cyra are definitely two of the best heroes in the game. Other Wizards but Serena are not so bad either. Scholar may not sound so good for primary hero but it never hurts badly either. Alchemists will develop into strong primary heroes nicely, especially Neela.


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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 14, 2001 09:45 AM

ugh time

Didn't want to write a huge post detailing everything exhaustingly seen people always complain when I do so. As far as I know Overlords are better than warlocks anyway, and water magic is possible to acquire with them. Also- what does water magic do dor tricky human opponents? Dispel, or cure even are very uesful, but other magic schools have offensive spells the function almost the same. Best spell to get is the low level death spell of Necro's does a few points of damage to ever unit. Gets rid of blind, clone, paralyze, stoned etc... and also does offensive damage. More than makes up for lacking dispel on most times, not always of course, but in the situatios it doesn't as long as you have dispel or cure, no need for extart water, that suffices then.

Well, Rampart hero mediocre, but too  much archery, navigation, leadership, eagle eye, etc seem to always happen on their heroes.

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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 14, 2001 10:56 AM

Quote:
Also- what does water magic do dor tricky human opponents? Dispel, or cure even are very uesful, but other magic schools have offensive spells the function almost the same. Well, Rampart hero mediocre, but too  much archery, navigation, leadership, eagle eye, etc seem to always happen on their heroes.



Water skill's very important to have when you're up against human's opponent. Debilitating spells like Mass Sorrow, Mass Curse, and, the most dangeros of all Expert Berserk is curable only by water magic. Not to mention to mass dispel your opponent's spells like Mass Shield, Mass Prayer, etc.
And you definitely want the expert version of the spell to cure the malign condition.
On the supporting side, Water magic has Prayer, Teleport, Bless, Forgetfulness, Summon/Scuttle Boat, Waterwalk, and especially Clone. There're way so many useful, powerful magics not to learn water skill. And the fact that Overlords won't learn Water skill on their own make them somewhat less desirable.

No, Rampart heroes are hardly mediocre, they're among the best that's why Rampart's one of the strongest towns to play because the heroes are outstanding. And what's so wrong with Archery or Leadership? Eagle Eye and Navigation are hardly offered to Rampart heroes. Heroes from towns that can't build shipyard won't have decent chance to learn Navigation.

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Ichon
Ichon


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted October 14, 2001 02:16 PM

this is why

"Debilitating spells like Mass Sorrow, Mass Curse, and, the most dangeros of all Expert Berserk is curable only by water magic. Not to mention to mass dispel your opponent's spells like Mass Shield, Mass Prayer, etc."

The problem with dispel and cure is that they are reactionary spells, still strong and sometimes you really need them vs a mass slow or expert blind or hypnotize in a siege, but for the other spells you mentioned, like prayer, clone, beserk, and mass sorrow especially- all those spells take away your turns in one way or another, if you can't cast it till after you've already had most of your units attacked, then what good is it? Not all situations require expert water, and I've noticed that since so many people are using it now, you can go back to the old implosion or high offense magic sometimes. Not always, as it is a high risk strategy with recanters seeming in about 60% of games, but if you don't want it to be a battle with both sides having water magic and casting prayer, then clone, then summon or an earth spell- etc. It's pretty formulaic battles now no matter which magic you pick since everyone knows the rules after h3 been out so long. But as for cure and dispel, water magic is useful more for teh offensive, if you get used of mass curse against you, mass bless far better then dispel or cure, actually I don't like mass dispell at all. Takes away all spells, mass cure the best in water magic- but anyway, this whole thing was sidetracked from the original point- which heroes are better, you contend dungeon heroes are really lacking sinc ethey get no water magic, well that is wrong anyway I do beleive, it is inferno heroes only that are banned from water magic, necero heroes can get it though it's rare same as dungeon, and their units can't use bless or prayer either. Besides the magic there are many other skills heroes need, with an overlord you can almsot always get all 8 or even 7 of the 8 skills that are best in my opinion.


"No, Rampart heroes are hardly mediocre, they're among the best that's why Rampart's one of the strongest towns to play because the heroes are outstanding. And what's so wrong with Archery or Leadership? Eagle Eye and Navigation are hardly offered to Rampart heroes. Heroes from towns that can't build shipyard won't have decent chance to learn Navigation."

Rampart might hero do't get navigation or eagle eye often, but the magic ones do. Leadership helps on map battles, but with so many artifacts that negate leadeship and also it's general unpredictablity in battle I don't like it. Archery- maybe for Tower or Dungeon, or even Castle- but Rampart with only one shooter which dies quick- not very good. Rampart might heroes do have a few good ones, but as a whole lot they are inferior to most other towns which have only a few more good ones in #, but still more of them than Rampart.

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 14, 2001 11:41 PM

Hi Ichon.
Midnight Wraith and I came up with a sort of top 10 of heroes while playing random

1. Tazar
2. Mephala
3. Neela
4. Crag
5. Gundula
6. Dessa
7. Gunnar
8. Kyrre
9. Solmyr
10.Deemer

This is with our normal random rules in place, ie. No necro heroes and No diplo. If those were in, I would probably put Isra, Vidomina and Ryland and/or Adela in the top 10. Of course this is only opinion, and welcome to be shot down in flames for anyone who wants to
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Myctteakyshd

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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 15, 2001 04:02 AM

>>The problem with dispel and cure is that they are reactionary spells, still strong and sometimes you really need them vs a mass slow or expert blind or hypnotize in a siege, but for the other spells you mentioned, like prayer, clone, beserk, and mass sorrow especially- all those spells take away your turns in one way or another, if you can't cast it till after you've already had most of your units attacked, then what good is it? >>

Well, what do you propose we should do if the opponent cast Mass Sorrow and expert Berserk on your troops other than cure them as soon as possible. Just like Mass Curse can be countered effectively by Mass Bless, Mass Sorrow can be countered by Mass Mirth, both are water magic and requires expert water skill to the most effective.

>>Not all situations require expert water, >>

Not all but most do and with the array of useful spells ranging from basic to powerful spells, water skill is not one to be passed by easily.

>> and I've noticed that since so many people are using it now, you can go back to the old implosion or high offense magic >>

Yet another beauty of water spells is that they don't require Spell Power to be most effective with expert Water skill.

>> But as for cure and dispel, water magic is useful more for teh offensive, if you get used of mass curse against you, mass bless far better then dispel or cure, actually I don't like mass dispell at all. >>

Bless and Cure are both of water realm and most powerful with expert Water skill.

>> which heroes are better, you contend dungeon heroes are really lacking sinc ethey get no water magic, well that is wrong anyway I do beleive, it is inferno heroes only that are banned from water magic, necero heroes can get it though it's rare same as dungeon, and their units can't use bless or prayer either. Besides the magic there are many other skills heroes need, with an overlord you can almsot always get all 8 or even 7 of the 8 skills that are best in my opinion. >>

I was arguing about the usefulness of Water skill in conjunction with the water spells not the availability of the spells itself. Of course Dungeon can get all water spells but Prayer. Overlords won't be able to learn water skill and that somewhat make them less desirable -- for me, at least.

>> Rampart might hero do't get navigation or eagle eye often, but the magic ones do. Leadership helps on map battles, but with so many artifacts that negate leadeship and also it's general unpredictablity in battle I don't like it. >>

Only 1 artifact, the Spirit of Opression, will negate the morale bonus from Leadership. True, leadership may not be one of the best skills out there but it's definitely one of the better skills and it will often help you more than not.

>> Archery- maybe for Tower or Dungeon, or even Castle- but Rampart with only one shooter which dies quick- not very good. >>

It is a good skill to have even just with 1 shooter. Grand Elves are the most efficient shooters in the game aside from the Sharpshooters and Enchanters. With Archery skill they can even do damage more than Evil Eyes and Medusa Queens can combined.

>> Rampart might heroes do have a few good ones, but as a whole lot they are inferior to most other towns which have only a few more good ones in #, but still more of them than Rampart.>>

Overlords and Barbarians won't learn Water skill so I rate them lower than Rangers. Demoniacs and Beastmasters are pretty good but Inferno and Fortress troops are just too weak for their creature-specialty heroes. Knights are too stupid to learn Earth skill. Alchemists suffer from some trivial skill to start with. Death Knights are the best might heroes but they're exclusively for the Necropolis.
But well I guess that's just my view of picking the best class for my main hero and usually I will always pick Magic heroes anyway.
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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 15, 2001 04:06 AM

Quote:
Hi Ichon.
Midnight Wraith and I came up with a sort of top 10 of heroes while playing random
1. Tazar
2. Mephala
3. Neela
4. Crag
5. Gundula
6. Dessa
7. Gunnar
8. Kyrre
9. Solmyr
10.Deemer



If you have SoD and the latest patch unfortunately any hero with Armorer skill will suffer double damage against arrow towers (40-50+ each secondary towers, 100+ main tower) when in castle siege. This put your top 3 heroes in real jeopardy!
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 15, 2001 05:08 AM

Double damage from towers, hmm didnt know that, but it wouldnt worry me at all, so i would lose say, 10 lizards instead of 5 a turn. Small price to pay for an armourer
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Myctteakyshd

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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 15, 2001 07:26 AM

Quote:
Double damage from towers, hmm didnt know that, but it wouldnt worry me at all, so i would lose say, 10 lizards instead of 5 a turn. Small price to pay for an armourer


Small price to pay? Early in tbe game when your armies are not big yet, the arrow towers will kill you easily! 10 Lizards? It would be more like 200-300HP damage per turn good enough to kill ~20+ Lizard Warriors. Huge price to pay especially early in the game. And when you're up against human opponent with Artilerry skill, it can be a lot more dangerous.

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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted October 15, 2001 11:53 AM

Wow this is awesome stuff! I'm learning so much!
I'll try and figure out who I agree with most, (Rychee surely you got something more to say in this!) but I rarely, if ever get water magic (earth fire and air, in that order, lol!)

I say that if you can negate an opponent's spells through reactionary spells, then it essentially means that you are tying him/her up. If you can tie someone up for long enough, they'll no doubt run out of points, or have to rely on traditional force methods to defeat you. It really does take spellcasting out of the game if you're good enough to counter every spell the opponent casts.

I love archery, I reckon it's a fantastic skill to have, especially with a good shooting town. I always choose archery, because there are quite a few archery boosting artifacts that are available on most maps (elven bow, string of unicorns mane, etc) which can boost your archery skill to well above 50% (I think 65% is the maximum for archery bonus). Considering archers often get first strike at an opponent in most cases, this kind of damage boost is JUST as good as expert offence in my opinion (offence is limited to 30% if I'm not mistaken. Are there any other arts to boost offence skills beyond 30%?) Couple archery with offence and armoury and you have yourself an army which is capable of massive amounts of damage and can very easily compensate for early loss of troops in the game. Don't even get me started on expert leadership.... that skill has gotten my undersized armies out of pickles more times than I care to remember.

*smile*


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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 18, 2001 09:23 AM

You bring Christian and his artillery, i'll bring Mephala, i'll siege you, and we will see who comes out on top. I know who my money is on
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Myctteakyshd

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DVZ
DVZ


Known Hero
posted October 18, 2001 03:47 PM

Quote:
You bring Christian and his artillery, i'll bring Mephala, i'll siege you, and we will see who comes out on top. I know who my money is on


Wish heroes games are that simple to know who will win or lose. But go ahead the next time you play an opponent with skill equal to yours propose that scenario above. Time it no more than a month where you will siege your opponent in his castle and Mephala's armorer will make her troops dead meat unless she learns Ballistics. Fragile Grand Elves and Silver Pegasus and slow Dwarves and Dendroids will make short work of Christian.
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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted October 19, 2001 11:29 AM

Quote:


1. Tazar
2. Mephala
3. Neela
4. Crag
5. Gundula
6. Dessa
7. Gunnar
8. Kyrre
9. Solmyr
10.Deemer




how can u put deemer in top 10 ? He sucks bad as all warlocks do

I would choose hack anytime over neela . alchemists get sucking skills and level too balanced, and her scholar skill is useless.
And how can u forget the only hero that starts with a Lvl 7 unit ---> Gurnisson

Strongholdschaaf


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Shae_Trielle
Shae_Trielle


Honorable
Famous Hero
of Heroes
posted October 19, 2001 11:46 AM

I didn't quite hear you right...

Did you just say that Gurnisson starts with a Level 7 unit?

Please tell me you didn't say that.

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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted October 19, 2001 11:54 AM
Edited By: Motorschaaf on 19 Oct 2001

hehe

Sure he does

His balista !!!It kicks ass . if u got exp artillery a nice attack u can kill nearly anything on a map with his balista. the damage it does is just cool compared to the damage some lvl 7 units do  


Triviaschaaf

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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 19, 2001 10:33 PM

Hi rampartloverschaaf

One thing you missed, is that I'm talking about attacking a random map, not a set map or anything. If you threw SD or HG or some map at me, Deemer would be slaughtered by Gurnisson I agree, but on a random, you can take the map apart with a 150-200 point meteor in week one. On set maps, my list would be totally different
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Myctteakyshd

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Motorschaaf
Motorschaaf


Bad-mannered
Famous Hero
posted October 19, 2001 11:58 PM

hehe

Quote:
Hi rampartloverschaaf


hehe maybe i misunderstood something, but no need to use the worst insults


Infernoloverschaaf
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zsa
zsa


Famous Hero
posted October 20, 2001 12:44 AM

Rychenroller

Why do you consider those armorer speciality heroes the best on randoms. I played some randoms and I must say they're not the best.

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David_Ryan
David_Ryan


Adventuring Hero
posted October 20, 2001 08:41 PM

Quite an interesting

discussion I think.

I like Armourer as much as Gundala and Crag and I don't give a heck Armourers suffer penalty with the towers. Water Magic is great but I'd have Air over it and Fire is just the same, methinks. Those excellent Efreeti with the Armageddon... with the aid of Pyre and Altar of Earth it just ROCKS.
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