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Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Standard random rules
Thread: Standard random rules This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 17, 2003 03:41 PM
Edited By: Kuma on 18 Jun 2003

Standard random rules

To avoid discussions about rules in randoms over and over again. Here's a suggestuions for a couple of packages of rules:
1) RUIN-RULES
2) LUCK-RULES


Pack 1: the ones that really 'ruin' a game; If one has it and the other not u have about a 90% chance of loosing;

No fly, DD, Diplo, no necro (not as starting town and no skelcollecting), no flux as startingcastle, no 1st day rush for red, no hit and run and no carto.
EDITED; Also standard rules: restart when: no wood/ore, meet week 1, blocked by a big group of monsters and (my favorite) when starting hero is not lvl 1.

Pack 2: the ones that are very Luck-dependant;

The ones from Pack 1 plus: no hillfort, no lvl 4-5 scrolls, no grail.

If u want u can also add: no log-hero, no lvl 3-4 hero and no scrolls at all.
Could be called the COMPLETE RULES.



Constructive comments wanted.
All toss will be deleted.



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chubby051
chubby051


Promising
Known Hero
King of All That Are Fat
posted June 17, 2003 08:18 PM

what about mines? none is an obvious restart, but what about blocked?

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Hexa
Hexa


Responsible
Legendary Hero
posted June 17, 2003 10:54 PM

First week meet and no roads should be standard restart rules aswell!@

Same with high level starting hero ( be it level 5,10 or higher).

U can;t take advantage of misplaced guards..READ: u must fight to get past or to take mine/arty./whatever...
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Lews_Therin
Lews_Therin


Promising
Famous Hero
posted June 17, 2003 11:39 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Lews_Therin on 17 Jun 2003

Hello Kuma,

it seems to me that the distinction between ruin-rules and luck-rules is an arbitrary one. Diplomacy, Necromancy, red rush, hitīn run and carthographer certainly have a potential to ruin a game. Just like Hill Fort, level 4/5 scrolls and grail.

No less of that potential have Dragon Utopia, Griffin Conservatory and level 7 dwelling. Noone I know of wants them to be banned, though.

I think mostly itīs not really about how strongly unbalancing something is or not. Cons and high level scrolls have decided 100 times more games than carthographers and grails. Has anyone of you ever digged out a grail on a random? Thereīs an awful lot of work and luck required: Finding enough obelisks, beating their guards, locating the place, collecting a number of heroes on that spot and digging until the thing is found. Needless to say that your map play is very limited, when you put your heroesī energy into such a grail quest.
So much easier to double-build and get 33% more creature production than the grailīs owner.

You mention red-rush as a "ruin"-aspect. I completely disagree. If red is not allowed to rush with extra troops, then blue has a clear advantage. Blue can use his new dayīs income for surrendering, and his new daysīs spellpoints when he is attacked - during redīs turn. When a blue hero enters a town with mage guild, and ends turn, his spellpoints are full. A red hero is vulnerable in there, unable to flee and usually more or less out of spellpoints (at least thatīs a common reason for staying overnight).
I think Iīve more often been SP/gold-wise-red-screwed than red-rushed. So IMO a game with red rush is more balanced than a game without.

Hitīn run ... well, much has been written about it. Sometimes a big unbalancer, at other times the one and only balancer. I personally donīt like it very much, but with magic heroes being unpopular on randoms anyway, I wonder why it has to be ruled out.

I think that some rules are reasonable and good, but it seems to me that many rather reflect how players donīt like to lose, than how strong and unbalancing a building or item really is.
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Kuma
Kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 18, 2003 01:38 AM

Yes it's arbitrary and that's why this is just a suggestion; open for discussion.
And when we've reached some form of agreement, maybe some players can use it like "KOR-rules" were popular some time ago.

And ur right that meet week 1, no wood & ore etc should be placed in as well.

Removed Woock's post.
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Aculias
Aculias


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
Pretty Boy Angel Sacraficer
posted June 18, 2003 03:32 AM

Communication is the key to a friendlier game.
I always tell my oponents anyone that if theres any problem let me know at all.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted June 18, 2003 04:56 PM bonus applied.

I expect kuma don't delete this

Well I see as lot of people alowing Log heroes, even on random their aren't as powerfull as in other maps, they still being Uber heroes.
level 7 Dwellings aren't so great, i did lose games with level 7 creatures generators, and winnning with no problem when my opponent is in the same possition.
About level 3-4 heroes and spell scrolls, really magic heroes are weak most , because they depend on get one of the 4 spells to be able to fight a might hero (Armaggedon,Meteo shower, Chain lighting, Implosion) if you are playing a magic hero and don't have one of those spells,you are screwed. So magic heroes depends on getting one of those spells. The only reason i would play a magic hero is if i'm sure i will have acces to one of those spells, with a lot of already usless 5 level spells (magic mirror, Elementals, Fly, DD) i depends on such a things to get them. So eliminate scrolls and level 3-4 heroes put magic heroes already out. But toh players don't have problems with that, since they, play closed maps, where magic heroes are simply usless. Even most players plays Closed templates, and there magic heroes are as screwed as in close maps, i assimilate that some players (as i do) play OPEN templates and MULTI-TOWN templates, where magic heroes are a good option.
As someone said, Grail don't seem a so good thing, you have to spend a lot of time on getting, it...again, closed templates favors grail , but even on them , it isn't as great. About necro and conflux, again , and again, they are only as powerfull on closed templates, on open and mutli town they aren't as powerufull, i think more imbalances comes from the templates most players play on TOH, that is closed templates, why don't give some try to open and multi-town templates? I know some players don't have a idea what are multi-town maps. I would submit one or two very good to TOH but i don't know how to do it, but if you want to have an idea, Test Beltway or Divided loyalties (beltway is a far better example) from toh, (BUT BAN TOWN PORTAL IT's EXTREMLY POWERFULL ON THOSE MAPS)
or warlords and free for all from the original ROE CD, those are acceptable Mutlti-town maps (free for all and beltway are very good maps, only ban red and blue from free for all)
Comming again with the rules , those rules are only good for closed templates, on open templalates some of those aren't as powerfull and on mutli-town templates, Town portal must be banned, as so do log heroes , log heroes on mult-town templates Should be banned.
If you want to try a multi-town template use the original RMG file and put 2 human players and 6 computer playes with weak or normal, creature strength. Thanks kuma for not deleting this post and make me happy, let us have true freedom of speech.

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Floriell
Floriell


posted June 18, 2003 05:35 PM

Thanx Kuma you've raised such question
Well to have fixed rules on random map to which everybody would allude to..... coz it's so tiresomely to repeat each time- no fly, no dd, no diplo, meet 1 week restart etc... all the same they are identical in the majority... and other nuances players could discuss before the game.
Also it is necessary to specify during how many turns each player have the right to demand restart.

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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted June 26, 2003 02:53 PM
Edited By: kuma on 22 Jul 2003

I was just trying to set a fixed set of rules that people can refer to whenever they r playing a rdm.  

Edit: Bumped.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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UncleJR
UncleJR


Adventuring Hero
posted July 17, 2003 11:56 PM

I'm Confused

Pardon my total ignorance, but what is "red rush" and what is a "log hero"?  

I don't play random maps much, so these terms are totally foreign to me.

Thanks

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midnight
midnight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2003 06:57 AM

i like the idea of this thread. A basic rule set is good. Then ppl can say i want standard + no hf, or std + no log spec. Hard to define a rules-with-the-lot cuz too many variations.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted July 18, 2003 07:34 AM

I like this.. rule pack RUIN and rule pack LUCK. Good idea.

This thing makes it easier to write the rules we often use. It true nature is an abbreviation of rules, wich is good.

Now lets write them in stone..  (on a real page). They are not too useful in a forum.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted July 18, 2003 08:30 AM

yes the problem is that some templates need different rules, on some maps log heroes are very good, on other, well, they are good with do doubt but not broken ones

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midnight
midnight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted July 18, 2003 08:45 AM bonus applied.

Here's my shot at it...

STANDARD:

* no cart/grail/fly/dd/necro/flux/diplo/red rush
* restart if meet week 1
* restart if wood/ore mines heavily blocked so cant get in week 1
* restart if no road from start town
* restart if starting hero not lvl 1
* must fight misplaced treasure guards, and zone guards

90% of time a massive block will prevent access to a mine, so no need for an extra rule.

nb. a zone guard blocks access to a new area, but doesnt guard a treasure.

LUCK:

standard +
no hillfort/4+ scrolls/learning magic from 4th heroes/logistic spec heroes/4th heroes as main

no joiners after day of xxxx, even without diplomacy

log spec means only gunnar/kyrre/dessa


ALL RULES:

luck +
no scrolls at all/armageddon spell in player battles/conservatories/hives/armourer spec hero/offense spec hero/orb inhibition/pyre hero/monere hero/grindan hero/sir mullich hero/town portal spell/lvl 7 external dwellings

no summon elemental/shackles together
no killing catapault in siege

nb. rehiring hero and chaining army back via scouts is acceptable, only tp not allowed is using spell.


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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted July 18, 2003 10:23 AM

I will never...

Understan the no flux rule.......... on certain diffs, they are pretty not better than castle and rampart.....

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kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted July 18, 2003 10:53 AM
Edited By: kuma on 18 Jul 2003

I would say, put no Hillfort (after getting it a few times on BB and Extreme I'm convinced it's a gamebreaker too) and the no joiners after week of the xxxx in the standard/ruin-rules and I'm in.
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People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

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bjorn190
bjorn190


Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
posted July 24, 2003 12:37 PM

I would probably never agree to "no learning level 4th spell from level 4th hero".. thats so much work to do that.. gettinga  scholar to level 5.. actually getting a hero, buying him, and taking that spell to main. Somehow its not that much easier than building a guild to level 4, and the luck aspect of getting a certain spell in that guild is as big as getting a perticular hero..

It also makes dungeon weaker compared to the other towns, since dungeon relies heavily on the level 4th heroes. Ive never seen somone want a "no level 4th hero" rule and pick dungeon..   Usually they take rampart or another town that doesnt have level 4th heroes.

If someone says to me: "no level 4th hero" I will say "ok but only if you select a town that has a level 4th hero"

One of the rules I have thought about lately is "no rampart" cause thats so noobish.. on the other hand, rampart is easy to kill with the right setup. On the third hand, they are usually so far ahead due to Grands + mass slow, that they are beyond creature strength when the battle starts. Rampart + damage spell + a few topes = they win. (If they have tactics)

Of course, Hack with angels or inferno is kinda beyond all this, but thats not a "guaranteed" thing, more ofa  fluke.

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Pollo2002
Pollo2002


Known Hero
posted July 25, 2003 04:11 AM

Quote:

One of the rules I have thought about lately is "no rampart" cause thats so noobish.. on the other hand, rampart is easy to kill with the right setup. On the third hand, they are usually so far ahead due to Grands + mass slow, that they are beyond creature strength when the battle starts. Rampart + damage spell + a few topes = they win. (If they have tactics)

Of course, Hack with angels or inferno is kinda beyond all this, but thats not a "guaranteed" thing, more ofa  fluke.


Lol rampart is the best among with castle on randoms ,if you ban rampart, then you have castle if you ban castle, well..........people never did that, so we will never know what town follow, my vote go for fortress beacuse of the hives, and swamp is a rich terrain

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soccerfeva
soccerfeva


Disgraceful
Famous Hero
banned
posted August 04, 2003 04:27 PM

I say we should print a set of standard random rules and define it as 'HC Standard Random Rules'

That way,when members play,they may say-let's abide by HC Standard Random Rules.

Somebody make the set of Standard Random Rules and declare it offical!
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midnight
midnight


Promising
Famous Hero
posted September 03, 2003 12:06 AM

the basic random rules will be in place of the template info in the Midnight Mix template. This will help stablise rules. eg. someone might say, mix rules plus no log spec.
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