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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: Dream Teams, Anyone?
Thread: Dream Teams, Anyone?
ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 11, 2003 05:49 PM

Dream Teams, Anyone?

I was messing around with the editor, making up big battles to fight, and I wondered what other people would come up with for their dream army. I'm looking for good all-around armies, ones that would win the most battles against a variety of foes, within certain constraints.

Armies: All creatures must be from one city type, and must be standard creatures built in that town. I.e.: A chaos army can't have trolls or evil eyes. Also, only one type per level is allowed. You can't have both pikemen and bastillas, for example. The number of creatures is 3 weeks worth of base rate production for one city. Don't bother figuring out how many that works out to, just name the creatures.

Heroes can be any sort that can be recruited from the base city type. I've arbitrarily picked 220,000 experience points total for the heroes. That works out to one 23rd level, 2 20th level, 3 17th level, or 4 15th level heroes. As a further exercise in arbitrary choices, I'll say 4 heroes is the most you can have. You get one skill level per experience level, so a 20th level hero can have grandmaster level in 4 different skills. Of course, you have to have the prerequisites so you can't have GM tactics without at least expert offence and defence. Skills that don't directly effect the battle are worthless, so don't bother with necromancy, summoning, estates, etc. unless you need it for a particular class.

Items: Let's go with one Relic, 2 major artifacts, 3 minor artifacts, 5 treasures, 6 potions, and 6 items (if desired). http://www.mmportals.com/h4/h4artifacts.html is a good place to shop. Let's stick to the basic ones and skip the campaign/expansion artifacts. Movement doesn't count for anything so don't take Equestrian Gloves. You get all the spells you can cast so don't take spell books either.

Don't forget your formation.

I'm just curious to see who comes up with a really good army. Maybe something like this could be a little tournament. Then again, it might die a quick death. I know it's a lot of work coming up with all the information but personally I find it fun putting them together in the editor and then fighting against different stacks on different terrain.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 11, 2003 07:49 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 11 Nov 2003

Let's get realistic and make it possible to have 5 heroes.
Also you should make 3-4 extra skills/hero available.

Nature: Fireguard(archer), General, Demonologist, Ranger(thief), Fireguard(sorcerer), Mantis, Phoenix

If you let me leave Ranger out (pathfinder hero which is necessary to travel), I bring a Crusader instead.

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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 11, 2003 09:06 PM

I guess if you really must you could take 5 15th level heroes. And it's a given that you'll get at least 2 extra skills (3 for Barb). So in your case 17 skills each. What's more important is to tell me what skills they are and what items you're taking and with who.

Here's an example I was messing with earlier that looked OK.

20th level fireguard
Combat: M, -, -, A
Chaos Magic: GM, GM, GM, -
Order Magic: B, -, -, -
Items: Fizban of Misfortune, Cape of Protection, Sniper's Crossbow, Elvin Chain, Ring of Health, Longsword, Shield, Potion of Immortality x3

20th level general
Combat: GM, -, GM, E
Tactics: M, E, A, -
Items: Bow of Elf King, Axe of Legends, Steadfast Shield, Arrow of Stunning, Ring of Protection, Warlord's Ring, Plate Mail, Potion of Immortality x3

Formation: black dragons, nightmares, general, bandits.
Line 2: orcs, medusas, fireguard

I'm not really sure about the Fizban. It's a great item but once an enemy moves the misfortune is removed. The Helm of Command would be an easy replacement but maybe not the best one.

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valkyrica
valkyrica


Supreme Hero
posted November 12, 2003 05:41 AM

lol, csarmi will wipe you out with only the 5 heroes, no troops
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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 12, 2003 09:19 AM
Edited By: csarmi on 12 Nov 2003

Iron, it is far from being OK.
Sorry to say that. Valcyrica was joking, but he was still right - I do not even need my creatures to kill your army.

Do you need some constructive criticism as well?

You should ban some artifacts as well.
Also the "best army" depend on which opponent you play. At least the alignment should be known.

For example, my Barb will be a Paladin vs Death and Fireguard vs Nature or Chaos.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 12, 2003 09:58 AM

If you say so, but without creatures there wouldn't be much point in bringing a general along, would there. In any event I can't check it out how well the team does until I know the skills and items. There are some great nature items, especially the ring of elementals and the Demonary might be worth taking, too. I was hoping somebody would have a team posted by now so I could check it out.

With only three weeks worth of creatures it might be better to bring heroes instead, although it seems like you might want to bring water elementals if possible. Also, I believe that mantis growth is less than one a week, so you'd only get 2. I don't know offhand what the weekly growth of water elementals is though.

I can't play MP as I don't have HoMM IV on a computer that's hooked up to the internet. The closest I can come to is to auto run the battles. Still, very much looking forward to whatever people come up with.

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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 12, 2003 10:02 AM

Let's see how it goes with the current constraints before we start banning things. The idea is to come up with an all-around army, by the way, not one custom designed to fight a particular alignment.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 12, 2003 12:30 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 12 Nov 2003

Mantis growth is 1.1 / week.

Here is an army for you:

Level 23 Fireguard (barbarian)
GM Combat, GM Melee, GM archery, Basic Resistance (15 skills)
Expert Chaos (6 skills)
Basic Nature (1 skill)
Basic Death (1 skill)
Advanced Life (3 skills)

Neener's Invulnerability Cloak

Armor of Regeneration
Soul Stealer

Amulet of Fear
Ring of Permanency
Barbarian Throwing Club

Ring of Life
Spider's Silk arrows.
Cap of Knowledge
Shield

Potion of Despair
Potion of Cold (drunk)
Potion of Quickness
Potion of Healing
Potion of Immo (2x)

1 Ogre Mage
1 Ogre mage
1 Ogre Mage
1 Ogre Mage
1 Ogre mage
1 Ogre Mage

A pretty week army.
Come back when you can defeat it.

My Ogre Magi are there only to cast a Bloodlust on my hero.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 12, 2003 02:52 PM

The barbarian went 0/3 in autobattle against the first army I put against it, which was pretty much exactly like the one I thought was OK earlier in the thread. The only difference was that there were efreet instead of nightmares. I didn't make that change with the barbarian in mind, it was just the configuration I was messing with last. If you doubt me, try it yourself. The best she did was to kill 1 dragon, 1 orc, and 30 bandits.

2 things: specify if you want potions drank and be sure to give formation.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 12, 2003 03:05 PM
Edited By: csarmi on 12 Nov 2003

Autocombat???
I kill your army with that barb 100 out of 100 times. I do not even need him to be this strong. The efreet change could actually be a big one, but since I am immune to fire it does not matter.

Of course, potions are drunk, tight formation, Hero in back row, farthest from you. Not that it matters, you cannot even hurt me.

I modify a bit, though. Take ou all of my archery stuff, that just hurts me.
Give me Expert Nature instead.

Actually, your army is not that bad I thought at first. Starting to get your ideas. However, your general's archery skill is useless. Save 4 points there and place it on tactics. Also you should go for expert tactics, GM offense/defense.
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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 12, 2003 07:13 PM

Autocombat isn't what I had in mind at first either, but  there needs to be some way to test them out.

I knew you'd want to have the immortality potion drank but after you were cocky I admit I was pleased to follow your orders to the letter. With the potion drank, the results were quite different.

The Ogre Magi are nearly useless. They never cast bloodlust on the hero, only on themselves. Why don't you select a full army? Even the bandits and orcs were useful in the tests, as they were able to take multiple retaliations.

The Fizban didn't work on the Barbarian even though she never moved, something I found interesting.

If more people show an interest, maybe in the future we could have different rules, like different numbers of creatures, mixed armies, and customized spell lists.

It would be helpful if you gave the formation as positions one through seven.

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Delfontes
Delfontes


Known Hero
Sorcerer Extraordinaire
posted November 12, 2003 07:22 PM

I don't think any test works if you let the computer decide what to do.

I've seen the computer run up and try to knock down castle walls with my ranged units....

Or you could have 2 different tests, one with autocombat, and one that both are player controlled.

I think you'll find that the best combo for one is not even similar to the best combo for the other.
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ironikinit
ironikinit

Tavern Dweller
posted November 12, 2003 08:22 PM

I totally agree, the best autocombat army would be  different than the best multiplayer army. It's the only way I can run the comparisons, though, and I enjoy them. Maybe somebody else can play them out in multiplayer.

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csarmi
csarmi


Supreme Hero
gets back
posted November 12, 2003 09:38 PM

Autocombat is just insane.

I had 100% magic resistance, so I was immune to spells. Also I was immune to dispel.

Normal way is to fight it out or do both players. You control both, I mean.

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Yes, I play the game only on the forums.

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dasdre
dasdre

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2010 10:53 AM

If you want dream teams, just copy 'em from the map Dannte. (Found in contest maps.)

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Osmin
Osmin


Hired Hero
posted November 11, 2010 11:47 PM
Edited by Osmin at 00:13, 12 Nov 2010.

I tried a duel between csarmis "superhero" and my own.

First, the skills of the fireguard added up to level 25, not level 23. I fixed this by removing the Basic Death Magic skill, and the Expert Nature Magic, leaving that hero with Advanced Nature Magic, Advanced Herbalism and Basic Meditation. All the other skills were as specified, and the two skills I removed would not have mattered against my hero anyway.

My hero was as following:

Barbarian, Paladin (I chose it to be female, and the other hero to be male, to make it easy to see the difference between them).

GM Combat, GM Melee, GM Magic Resistance
Exp. Life Magic, Exp. Healing, Exp. Spirituality
Basic Order Magic (which I don't need, as Nature or Chaos Magic would be better. It's just there to make the skills add up to level 23.)

Adamantine Armor

Robe of the Guardian
Spear of the Centaur

Hideous Mask
Halberd of the Swiftwatch
Ring of Permanency

Ring of Health

Potion of Cold (drunk)
Potion of Strength (drunk)
Potion of Toughness (drunk)
Potion of Speed (drunk)
Potion of Immortality (drunk)
Potion of Mana

Bottom line:
When all possible blessings were cast, the full damage output of csarmis hero was 52+52 (=104) each round, both attacks. His full regeneration capacity was 66+13+13 (=92), the first from the Breastplate of Regeneration and the two others from the Soul Stealer.

My hero had a full damage output of 42+42+42 (=126) each round, two attacks and one retaliation. Because of the Halberd of the Swiftwatch, my hero could attack without any retaliations, while the Amulet of Fear didn't work on her because of the GM Magic Resistance. Her full regeneration capacity was 105 each round, as provided by the spell, not by any item.

In other words, csarmis hero recieved 126 damage each turn, and regenerated 92 each turn. Every few turns, he had to cast Heal or Bind Wound. My hero recieved 104 damage each turn, but regenerated 105. Even his stun ability, while ignoring her Magic Resistance, did nothing against her Regeneration. It was only a matter of time.

Somewhere around 40 minutes, in fact.

Anyway, when csarmis hero went out of mana, things started to go downhill for him. The Potion of Healing bought him some time, but after another long while, he died. Then, the Potion of Immortality resurrected him, but without the protective spells he had lost when he died, he was pretty much screwed.

Some advice: Regeneration is pretty much a given in these scenarios, but the spell is boosted by Spirituality. The Breastplate of Regeneration and the Ring of the same stuff are only level-based in their power. For me, the choice seems obvious.

Lastly, another hilarious example with a completely different hero, showing that no hero is invincible:

Knight (Crusader)

Basic Tactics, Basic Defense
Basic Life Magic, Basic Healing

Ring of Greater Negation

Ring of Speed

Scroll of Hand of Death

Potion of Immortality (drunk).
Potion of Speed (drunk).

He'll kill csarmis hero every single time they meet, and he's level 3.

Then again, he'll kill my Barbarian too. Or any single hero slower than him, for that matter.
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Deconstruction is the basis of all study. You must know a thing's parts before you can know the sum of those parts. And thus, dispelling even that which we cannot cast becomes simple.

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