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| Thread: Heroes V should be the new version of HMM 2 or 3 ! | |
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Elleshar
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 05, 2004 11:31 PM |
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Heroes V should be the new version of HMM 2 or 3 !
Hello everyone,
Regretfully, I have never post a single message to a bbs about Heroes of Might and magic before.. that was not because I
don't like HOMM was because I don't like surfing the internet... I hope you will not consider me as a total newbie because I
beleive I am not a newbie nor a HOMM guru... And please accept my apology if my english is not so great...
I were a big fan of HOMM till the release of HOMM4... HOMM4 was a big disappointment for me....And a couple of days ago I
stopped by your site and I see the news about HOMM5...
My purpose is to give you my opinions and ideas about the following,
1- Why there is a community for a HOMM?
2- What was wrong in heroes4 and what was right in Heroes3
3- What do I want to see in heros5?
1- The genre, turn based strategy, has a long history..I think sid meier's civilization set a new level for the genre and
opened some new doors... After the civilazition (which was first a Commadore64 game from what I remember) there was an
increase of the interest over the turn based strategy games... The main concept of a turn based strategy is the "tactics"...
Just like "chess"...The pleasure you get from a strategy game is the chance to prove the excellence of your intelligence over
your opponent, i.e your enemy... Heroes of might and magic I-II-III are the games that makes me feel strong when I win a
battle after some clever tactics or makes me feel silly if my enemies catch me defenseless.... and the interesting part is
the taste of the victory lasts a lot longer than the game itself...I remember we were discussing the pros and cons of a map
for days with friends.. I strongly beleive that these kind of feelings take the HOMM from being just a video game to become a
community.. The feeling is "the intelligence, tactics and the godly magical power behind the battles" and "the taste of
victory"!.... I know that the Heroes fans were demanding something new before the version 4.. Only thing that had been
changing was the version number... But were we really expecting a lot of changes in HOMM4? where we expecting a "totally new
game. Period" as 3DO had announced on their webside? Or were we just waiting for a better, annoying,smart and effective AI
which makes us "worry" a lot? Or were we waiting for an increased taste of victory? ... Were we waiting for some REAL
challanges?
2- The Heroes4 was a big disappointment for me... 3DO had did a good job and delivered a new game as they had promissed
before.. But that was not what I wanted... the 3rd version was great except some disabilities and weak AI... The graphics
were not stunning, I agree..However, what was their importance level, what was their priority ? Did the color of the
background, dress shape of a female hero, the roof style of the Mage Guild or the shape of an artifact make us play this game
for years?(Tho I can't deny that they affect the mood of the game playing) Or it was the "feeling" when we grasp "the sword
of judgement" after defating a legion of cyclops with almost no loses in our weaker army? (thanks to forgetfulness and slow)
Didn't you feel good when storming upon your enemies with increased Hero stats by the help of this strong sword?.....
Heroes4 was a good game despite my disappointments..I played 2 expansions and then just forget about them.... It was just a
game for me!... There where nothing to "think", or discuss about in that game, it was just a good time killer like 100 or so
games I have somewhere in my working room...It was definitely not the HEORES OF MIGHT AND MAGIC, it just has the name of it
..It was just a game.. You see what I mean?... NWC/3DO's fault were misunderstanding the meaning behind the demand for a "
new" HOMM, I presume... They thought that we really need "shocking" changes... (Maybe there where guys and girls expecting
such changes but the impression I have is there are not so many of them) I found a chance to read what have said by some of
the experienced HOMM players on this board... I have noticed that what they mostly like in HOMM4 are parts that are
transferred from HOMM3 with some improvements ... Such as the "Skill" system.....that makes me think that Heroes4 would sell
not more than 1000 copies if its name would be different...
3- HOMM3 is a great game (for me) as I have told you before.... It has some problems, of course.. I would like to see some
more features in homm III (--or should I say HOMM V ---)... I have tried to list some of the "improvements" I have in mind...
(note: numbers I have given below are just for giving you an idea)
* 5 or more "new" town types..
- including a town with having only creatures who can cast spells! (lcreatures ike genies, enchanters and faery dragons ...)
- A couple of town types you can only capture but can't start a game with it...... for example pirate town, where city hall
generates twice as much gold than other cities or owning that town increases your movement rate for your ships ...And of
course these towns have some interesting creatures.... i.e rogues: Totally invisible creatures till they charge enemy..
- maybe a bug town, with earth nature, having creatures like snake soldiers ,fly warrios, chaos spiders ... If there could be
a BUG HERO, it could have expert earth magic
* 2 or 3 more map levels including , sky and underwater...
* Secret levels, like caves,graveyards, crypts, mountain peeks, etc... The places where you can find treasures and artifacts
.. These places could be used for hiding too...
* 100 more new, and "useful", artifacts!
- "staff of the holy monk" for example - it lets you cast 2 consecutive spells for first 2 turns"... And then I would actually be searching for the orb of inhibitition to avoid the end,depending on my strategy and the strenght of my army,no matter if I have a level 70 Sorcerer ... And then I would consider training a good secondary barbarian hero with "resistance" skill in every game... and then I would be forced "seriously" to have more than one hero that would determine If I will win
the game... And then "Races" would become really really determinant factors in the game.... (Hey, give Yog wisdom and have
him learn earth,fire magic, and intelligence and grasp an artifact for knowledge issue.. Would he crush a sorcerer or warlock
or a necro?
- "pendant of the barbarian god" - doubles the cost of the spells for your enemy...
- "The ring of the sorcerer king"- The opposite of the "pendant of the barbarian god"
- "Stone of the earth master" - Temporarily adds the spell "ancient protector of the earth" to your spell book and this spell
lets you call "the protector of the earth" to your aid once in every 10 battles... Protector of the earth could be a creature
with 2000 life and 200 damage... And heroes without expert earth magic couldn't cast the spell at all.... Also, this spell costs 150 spell points (300 if your enemy carries pendant of the barbarian god)
- "stone of the fire master","amulet of the water god", "stone of the titan's father", "ring of the sentinel" .. All could
let you summon a godly creature..
- Crown of the lich king - wherever you go you will have a cursed fog above your head which prevents your enemy seeing your
army... The radius of the fog is half the radius of cover of darkness...
* 20 or more combination artifacts...
- Like "The orb of the earth elemantal master - grants 90% immunity to earth spells "
- what if you could use "helm of the heavenly enlighment" and "sandals of the saint" for assembling an "aditional" combo
artifact as well as Angelic aliance? Hmm, "the archangel's shield" maybe? A shield that would give your archangels the
ability of casting resurrection spell for 2 additonal turns... It is up to you using Angelic Aliance or Archangel's Shield..
I smell more tactical playing...
* Several towns with 8 levels of mage guild.... Only those who seriously live by spells could need level 8 spells...
- A level 8 spell : The dead worm - A worm appears in the ground and does 8k damage to all enemy units.
- A level 8 spell : The mirrors of truth - creates 3 copies of a creature and your enemy can't know which one is real till he
attacks them..
- A Level 7 spell : The Heavenly light - A very bright light blinds 3 units of your enemy....
* 30+ creatures per town... I should be able use my brain to choose which creature I need.... And it should cost really
really so much gold to recruit "all" of the creatures... So much that you will have to "recruit" creatures depending on who
is your enemy..
- More creatures immune to magic....
* 100 new spells:
- More adventure map spells.. For example "Raise volcano - lets you close a path by raising a volcano until your enemy learns "the flower garden" spell which would turn the volcano (or whatever obstacle made by a spell) into a flower garden where he/
she could pass through it!..
- "The shield of fire - Lets you create something smilar to whirlpool but on the land.. If you try to pass through, it makes
you lose a certain number of creatures depending on the -spell power- of the caster" Does upto 5k damage to all creatures
maybe?
- "plague" a level 8 spell- you can cast it on a town and that town will lose a certain % of garrisoned creatures everyday
(depending on the spell power of the caster) until dispelled, expert dispell removes the effect completely and basic dispell reduces the effect of plague...
Now, I have a reason for learning "Water magic"
- "Invisibility" - When cast during a battle it makes a chosen creature stack become invisible and transfers them to a random
place on the battle field...If they attack they become visible.They can't be attacked until they become visible naturally or
dispelled by the expert dispel..
- "invisibility" - When cast on the adventure map it lets you hide one of your creature stack for 4 turns.... If you can
cast expert invisibility, you can make your highest level creature invisible... If you have "expert" visions you can see the
highest level of invisible creatures that your enemy has.... Well, could you attack my hero having an army of "a few gargoyles"?
If you have no expert visions in your spell book, you can attack me and meet my legion of Titans!".. And here is the good thing...If you are an "expert" you can cast this spell every day on a different creature of yours BUT if your enemy hero is an expert scout he will know how many of your creature stacks are invisible, altough he can not know what type of creatures are invisible.... Now I, really, NEED Scouting skill!
* Heroes can "join" a battle...
Pros - heroes are strong and fast....They can cast an additional spell each turn and they increase the morale of the warriors
they fight side by side by 1 or more..
Cons - If you are willing to die beside your soldiers you can not flee or surrender
...".. There could be a button "join the battle"...
* Not more than 2 heroes can travel in an army and only one of them leads the battle ... We all know that armies have only
one commander... You will have a chance to choose your hero before the battle...
* Hire armies! .... Ok, you play a multi player game and and one of your enemies defeated your best hero and your army is now
gone!.... You think you have lost the game , right? Maybe no! You can go hire an army which could let you invade a couple of
more towns and start over in a short time... The armies are damn expensive and no hero without diplomacy skill can hire them
.... And they will cost you twice as much than recruiting your own troops.. But you need an army right now and you have no
time... I mean, it is an option for defeated heroes...... There are several types of armies that you can hire.. For instance,
you can hire the army #1 containing 100 Level1,3 Level 7 etc etc creatures for a price of 10000 gold and army #2 with 100
Level 7 creature for 500000 gold maybe...
* A better artifact merchants, I have lost the battle, have no gold but I have the power of the dragon father..I can sell it
for 100.000 gold, even tho other players can buy it, so that I can go hire an army... It is the first time I give up an artifact where my opponets can use it...Decision is yours, this is a tactics game, right?.. Ah,you said Altar of sacrifice? come on, you want to sacrifice an artifact and regret later when a seer wants it?... Altar of sacrifice is a good map object but not great...
* A smart AI...
- Computer opponent with a strong army no longer "waits" to be abandoned and he doesn't visit "everything" on his way where
he must capture a town in 7 days...
- They don't visit all the learning stones,mystic ponds and things like that before capturing a mine... And they, indeed,
capture a mine..not just take a walk around it..
- They don't dive in each and every whirlpool on their way...
- They know how to assemble a combo artifact... And they know what these artifacts do.
- Now they actually cast berserk, forgetfulness, chain lightning or alike whenever they can...
- They are able to do a "wait and attack" strategy in a battle instead of "move far and die" nonesense...
- They don't attack your level 1 creatures with everything they have.. They don't attack 2 imps with 50 benemoths where they
could attack your angels and kill them all..
- They no longer try to explore your terrain with an army of a few imps and wearing aromor of the damned.. Artificial Foolness!
* MORE Skills!..
- Plain and simple skill system with usefull skills... First aid, Estates and eagle aye are gone ! or improved ... Expert estates give you 3k gold a day , expert first aid heals all of your units... Expert eagle eye lets you learn 5th level spells at 80% chance and you will learn all the spells below 5th level at 100% chance.. That includes adventure spells cast in your
sight range... If your enemy casts "town portal" in front of you, you will earn "town portal".. If you don't want me to learn the town portal then you have to run ...
- Archery , offance and sorcery are now better...
- New skill : "holiness" - expert holiness increases the "life" of your creatures by 40% ...
- New skill : "science" - expert science lets your hero generate 40% more creatures than normal in the town he is garrisoned..
- New skill : "summoning" - expert "summoning" increases the effectiveness of your "summon" spells by 200% ...
* Graphics - I hate the graphics of HOMM IV ... A turn based strategy game shouldn't have to be a place for showing your
artistic skills ... Instead, your programmers game designers and directors should spend a great deal of time for a better artificial intelligence..... What's good in a brilliantly designed but "stupid" strategy game? ...
To come to a conclusion,
I would play "Half life, quake or Diablo" if I would like to stare at the graphics.... I would play "the sims"... I think they should care about the AI first.... Graphics and sounds makes sense only when the AI is good... And they should remember that HOMM I, II and III are the games what makes this game a "legend"... Not HOMM IV.. If they try to improve HOMM4 they will fail in my opinion... Instead they should forget about HOMM4 and bring a "new" life to HOMM III...
Well, I have millions of more ideas in mind but this is already a long writing...I would like to write more about hero types, more spells, map editor, decprative objects, advantages of 3d and 2d etc etc...
thank you for your time and patience..
and thank to those who have inspired me with their ideas...
thanks to heroes community
Best regards to all...
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IYY
Responsible
Supreme Hero
REDACTED
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posted January 06, 2004 12:29 AM |
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Good thread, lots of good and valid points. However, you say that:
Quote:
A turn based strategy game shouldn't have to be a place for showing your
artistic skills ... Instead, your programmers game designers and directors should spend a great deal of time for a better artificial intelligence..... What's good in a brilliantly designed but "stupid" strategy game? ...
This is true, I agree with it. Most hardcore HOMM fans will agree with it. However, the HOMM fan community is not the only one that the company wants to please. Look at the case of Might and Magic 7-8. It got the most pathetic rankings you'd ever see, it hardly even sold any copies, nobody except for the fans liked it (and the fans were not too happy either, but that's a different story). Why do you think all that happened? Some people just chose to re-use the same old MM6 engine and focus on gameplay. Keep it the way it was a long time ago. Why change a good thing? Well, gamers want to see change. When they don't see change they don't tend to buy the product.
So by all means, Ubisoft should bring back all the features from the old games (HMM2 was my favorite) but new and improved graphics -should- be among top priorities. Remember - if the game doesn't sell we won't see another sequel.
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Elleshar
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 06, 2004 02:14 AM |
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Quote:
Good thread, lots of good and valid points. However, you say that:
Quote:
A turn based strategy game shouldn't have to be a place for showing your
artistic skills ... Instead, your programmers game designers and directors should spend a great deal of time for a better artificial intelligence..... What's good in a brilliantly designed but "stupid" strategy game? ...
This is true, I agree with it. Most hardcore HOMM fans will agree with it. However, the HOMM fan community is not the only one that the company wants to please. Look at the case of Might and Magic 7-8. It got the most pathetic rankings you'd ever see, it hardly even sold any copies, nobody except for the fans liked it (and the fans were not too happy either, but that's a different story). Why do you think all that happened? Some people just chose to re-use the same old MM6 engine and focus on gameplay. Keep it the way it was a long time ago. Why change a good thing? Well, gamers want to see change. When they don't see change they don't tend to buy the product.
So by all means, Ubisoft should bring back all the features from the old games (HMM2 was my favorite) but new and improved graphics -should- be among top priorities. Remember - if the game doesn't sell we won't see another sequel.
I totally agree with you when you say Ubisoft should bring back all the features from the old games with new graphics...
I exactly mean that indeed... But, my point is, wouldn't it be better if they could "fix" some of the major issues with AI which kills the game? ... , ok suppose they brought back the HOMM2 with "brilliant" graphics but the AI is still as fool as it was before... Would that make you happy?..
If only they could come up with a game based on HOMM II or III, sharp and nice looking graphics A LOT better AI with tons of new spells, towns, creatures, skills, map objects, and hero types..... Well, at least they could redesign the HOMM 3 objects in 3d and use them....
Let me give you an example, DIABLO was a good game... A lot of people loved it from what I read .. But was it a best seller? No, not close...It did not sell about a million copies, like starcraft, before its release...It's fame increased in time.... But DIABLO 2 was a best seller... It took me not more than 20 minutes to get familiar with the game.. It makes you think you are continuing where the DIABLO 1 ended...
Or Disciples, another good strategy game... You could easyly name the HOMM4 as Disciples 3 and claim that you did some amazing changes in Disciples 2.. A new disciples game!!! period".... I bet disciples players would feel exactly what I feel...
Bun in HOMM4 case, the spirit of the game has ripped ....
I have read the thread about the first sketches... I think those who like the archangel graphic like the "art" and the "effort" put in it, and we should not forget the "excitement" factor we have ben having when Ubisoft announced the Heroes 5... Besides,I think they have asked the question for a moment "what happened to the real Archangel?"... Those who did not like it did not like it because it was not the archangel we know...
When I buy Heroes 5 I would like to see something on the map and want to know that it is "the library of the enlightment" ... I don't need something called "the brilliant saga of the universe" which exactly does what LOE was for.. You see what I mean?... they can draw a great 3D building for it for sure, but I beleive they should keep the name and improve the properties of it ....
Heroes3 is an old game , heroes2 is older, but despite all that time passed there are still maps being built for these versions..why? Was because HOMM3 is so great? or was because HOMM4 is really not even close to its predecessor?..
In heroes 5 , I want Kilgor's Ancients and I want them having 300 HPs... No need to play with such things ... It would just make the game difficult to get used to..If you could be selling a "new" game you could do anything you like with it, you could let your heroes play soccer.. No one would have a word against that.. But if you actually bought HOMM and want to continue from there ,you should know that your potential customers are not "all" ... Your potential customers are those posting on this board and they don't need just a game.. They need HOMM back!..
thanks,
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=6]Library Of Enlightenment[/url], to discuss Heroes 4, please go to [url=http://heroescommunity.com/forumdisplay.php3?FID=17]War Room Of Axeoth[/url].
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