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| Thread: MuaDib, elemental questions | |
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JimMorrison
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 09, 2004 02:08 PM |
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MuaDib, elemental questions
Hello Ubisoft developer !
I have some important elemental opinions and questions.
I have seen that other Heroes 3 look a like game from UbiSoft but the demo disturbed me a lot. It is not an attractive game.
So how dedicated is UbiSoft to keep the Heroes 3 fans glued to it ?
Then my comment is also that HEROES 3 is the perfect game. I can play it one more thousand years (played it over 5000 hours now on lan with friends). So why a new game ?
A new Heroes game must be nothing more then an expansion of heroes 3 in my opinion. But an expansion on gameplay. Make the gameplay more diverse. Going for graphics will only alienate the fanbase.
The WOG team had done some interesting things graphicaly and on gameplay.
Just my opinion. I would love to buy an improved and more complex heroes 3. But i was not interested in heroes 4 or will be in heroes 5 if it is not something like Heroes 3. Like i said, heroes 3 offers me all i need for a competitive game against friends.
Chess does not need new graphics. The same counts for heroes 3.
So this is what you have to do to be very succesfull:
1. Make 12 castles, dedicated at least 1 to Indian mythology, 1 to Asian/Chinese mythology and 1 to Arabian mythology. All castles should be based on mediaevil time of courses. So NO steamtanks !
2. Enlarge the battlefields. Keep heroes as spellcasters but add 1 or 2 commanders to the battlefield. Like the WOG team did. Commanders should have a limit of levels and health so they do not get to strong. Battlefields should be more diverse and terain should have an influence. Oil spots and corn fields should be able to set to fire, forrest areas should make dendroids invisible and give cover to archers.
3. Keep the heroes 3 spell system. Add 2 more books, dark and light magic. Add ritual spells. And so on. I have lots of ideas.
4. Enhance the castles. Make them bigger. Add farms to them for food production. Blacksmith and fletchers for arrow and weapon/armor production. And so on. Make the castles bigger an more interesting. Increase the number of units. And add combo untis. Example: archery range + stables = archers on horses.
But base it ON HEROES 3. Increase the gameplay not the graphics. Only then you will do well.
To be honnest, i have not much faith in game developers. I am posting ideas for games (online ones) for a long time now and almost always the EGO of gamedevelopers is to big and their need to SERVE the players is to low.
EGO not gameplay that is main dominator in gamedevelopment land. Look at Raph Koster. A good example.
Lets be even more synical.
Heroes 5 will be: warlords terain + warlords battles + heroes name on the package.
Sure you will sell it to some fools. But you wont get your 1 million copies.
My advice, stick to HEROES 3 graphics. Then enhance the battles. Make the battles 3D and real time like in DARKOMEN. If you do that and find a way to prevent illegal copying then you will do UBER !!!
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CoolFool
Hired Hero
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posted January 09, 2004 04:01 PM |
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It`s funny, but a big part of it is TRUE...
(Heroes 5 will be: warlords terain + warlords battles + heroes name on the package.)- THAT`s my Nightmare !!!
To be honnest, i have not much faith in game developers- so am I...
Chess does not need new graphics. The same counts for heroes 3 - 100% true...
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 09, 2004 04:06 PM |
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Heroes 3 was great. It filled a niche. Heroes 4 was better, but limited. Heroes 5 will blow them both outta the water I'm sure, if 3DO ever get their website up and running again it should be a piece of pie for them to make a newer better game.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 10, 2004 06:11 AM |
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Although I certainly like the idea of making Heroes 5 an improved version of Heroes 3, I think Heroes 5 should move in a new direction (to a degree, at least). Let's face it: you can't do Heroes 3 much better than Heroes 3 did it. Nonetheless I think Elleshar makes a good point. It is totally foolish to abandon the style that made the Heroes series so popular.
Here is my story, which hopefully explains my reasoning:
Back in the Heroes 3 days I derrided NWC for failing to bring any meaningful innovation to the Heroes series. Heroes 3 was a buffed Heroes 1 remix- more units, more castles, more adventure objects, but very little else had changed in that time. Some token advances in skills and spells, most of which were carried over from Heroes 2. Although still a fun game, what more was there to add?
So when I heard the news about how different Heroes 4 was going to be, I was terribly excited. Finally the franchise was going to get the new life breathed into that it needed. But then I played the game and saw that everything was wrong. The ideas were there, but the implementation was among the worst I had ever seen in a professional video game (Chiefly, the AI was utterly incompetant).
In fact, had I not heard that Ubisoft purchased the Heroes franchise, I would not be on these forums. Nor would I care what cockamaney ideas NWC had cooked up for the series. Dissappointed with the poor of innovation in H3, and the poor implementation of H4, I had abandoned my one of my favorite computer game franchises. I was tired of expansions with very little or no new content. I was tired of the company ignoring flagrant imbalances and refusing to patch the game to make it better. I really felt cheated of the money I spent on Heroes games.
But now there's new management, and new hope. Maybe Ubisoft can make Heroes 4 the way it was meant to be done. Or maybe they can do something even better. Either way, H3 on steroids would be a BAD idea.
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JimMorrison
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 10, 2004 09:39 AM |
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Thanks for the decent and great to read replies everyone ! Really nice to see a mature audience on a message board.
* bows deeply *
But just think about it for a moment. They stick to the heroes 3 plan. They keep the "board" as it is now. Then they translate all the old Heroes 1 - 4 maps into heroes 5 maps. Then they build the database in such a way that the data from the "board game" can be transllated into 3D battles. Then i mean the 3D battles from Darkomen ? That technology should be easy to purchase. Then also keep the traditional battlefields. So people can chose between "calculation battles", "2D battles" and "enhanced UBERLY goodlooking real time 3D battles" Darkomen style.
See this location for information on Darkomen => [url]http://republika.pl/bmone/darkomen/dark_omen.htm[/url]
And see the battles ([url] http://www.gamespot.com/features/darkomen/page5.html[/url] ):
1. [url]http://www.gamespot.com/features/darkomen/shot11.html[/url]
2. [url]http://www.gamespot.com/features/darkomen/shot12.html[/url]
3. [url]http://www.gamespot.com/features/darkomen/shot20.html[/url]
Then they can also enhance the Heroes 3 board, but leave it in its 2 dimensional form. Simply because never did 3D chess sell well. People love 2D chess and i think the same counts for Heroes 3.
Look at how much work you save yourself ! And you can focus on what is really important.
1. battles
2. AI
3. content
Sounds simple to me. This is the perfect plan. Side effect is that NO ONE has to upgrade his PC. But some will because they would love to enjoy the 3D battles.
Warlords from UBISOFT is the total opposite. The BOARD is 3D and the battlefields is 2D. Funny how they downsized their effords on gameplay.
Pray to GOD they wont do it on Heroes also. Then these message boards are only an attempt to manipulate the fanbase into THEIR PRODUCT. Something that will never happen. Look at Star Wars Galaxies.
Quote:
I think Heroes 5 should move in a new direction (to a degree, at least). Let's face it: you can't do Heroes 3 much better than Heroes 3 did it.
YES you can. You can do it a lot better ! But the moment you change the BOARD (see it as a chess board) into 3D style you alienate 90% of your fanbase. Believe it or not. We the posters are not representative. If Ubisoft is unable to understand this, then this means they will fail. The essence of Heroes 1-3 is the 2D board that is easy understood by all.
Make the battles more interesting, improve the AI for the die hard fans. And put some new content in there. They will buy it then ! Cook something new and go look for a new fanbase.
All Heroes 4 proved was that the fanbase, the one 100 times bigger then on these boards, does not want a change of plan on the 2D board.
I know ALL what i write is FUTILE. Everything will be proceeding as i have foreseen. It will be 3D board with very simplistic battles like in warlords. Mark my words.
DOWNLOAD DARK OMEN !!!!
[url]http://www.pcgameworld.com/download.php/id/2385/folder/demos/filename/darkdemo.exe[/url]
(if the image is not working correctly in Dark Omen go to OPTIONS then change 3D settings to CPU !!!)
PLAY DARK OMEN people and check out how wonderfull and powerfull your heroe would have looked in that small window ! The HEROE player interaction is superb !
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted January 10, 2004 09:06 PM |
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Neither would I underestimate the support and following for HoMM4. WOG was indeed only a bit of tweaking on HoMM3 to iron out the wrinkles in the game that were discovered after years of playing and testing, along with a few funny tidbits. HoMM4 has the scripting system, so it doesn't need that. And an unofficial mod for HoMM4 has been released to balance out some of it's flaws as well.
Beside, *evil grin*, you are too late. These are literary quotes from the producer of HoMM5:
Quote:
Skill/spell/creatures system : being discussed now, we will not use a previous one but improve on the existing.
Storyline : we are developing a unique storyline for the whole solo game.
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Perception is everything.
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JimMorrison
Tavern Dweller
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posted January 11, 2004 11:56 AM |
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All i have seen is them MASSAGING the fans into buying their new game. This wont work on the masses. Because they buy games on mouth to mouth advertisement.
I think this is the current sentiment: i would love to buy an upgraded Heroes 3 game. I am not waiting for another fastly done game with Heroes as name on it only to sell more copies.
I myself have played over 5000 hours Heroes 3 and just 1 month ago i discovered WOG. WOG is just not known by 99,9% of the Heroes 3 community. And that has some major reasons. Of which one is that the WOG team does not advertise their work at all.
You have to search for Heroes 3 sites to one day accidently stumble on WOG. That is it. And how many of us check out 30 Heroes 3 sites to finally stumble on WOG ? I stumbled on it only because i was searching for material for my own Heroes 3 site.
I have not much faith in this new Heroes 5. Not at all. But i gave my opinion.
P.S. I am way to smart for developers posting in disguise to hype their game. This does not work on me folks.
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Marelt_Ekiran
Promising
Famous Hero
Watcher of All
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posted January 11, 2004 08:18 PM |
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Sorry to disappoint you, but those quotes come from someone who is a confirmed producer from Ubisoft (which is now doing the developing of HoMM5). People from the community have met him and done some interviews.
And I am quite familiar with the HoMM community, since I have been visiting a lot of forums for more than a year now, on a daily base. What I found is that the fast majority of people supports HoMM4, with a few isolated cases of HoMM3 supporters shouting between them.
However, you will not find a single person who will claim that HoMM4 was a perfect game. Far from it. But we all know (that is, if you were following the news), that this is because the game was rushed on a tight schedule and a tight budget. But why then, does it still have such a large following? That is because the essential ideas were good and we should build on those. From all information that I have obtained so far, Ubisoft wants to do this and implement a number of their own features on top of it. To be honest, I have no clue yet what those new features will be, but they are not HoMM3 features.
In conclusion, this is a classic case. I have seen it a few times before. A group of friends, either from real life or the online community puts their heads together and discuss games. The reason why they came together in the first place is because of a similar interest, which is in this case, HoMM3. So then they start nitpicking on HoMM4, and all friends agree with the others (because that is what small circles of friends do). However, then they get the impression that this small circle speaks for the entire community, which it does not.
You will find a small following in the Myths and Heroes forum on HC and one or two lost souls on RT, but that is about all the following you will probably get.
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Perception is everything.
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Polaris
Promising
Known Hero
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posted January 11, 2004 09:24 PM |
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I will say this much, JimMorrison is correct in saying that the posters on these forums (all Heroes forums) are not representative of the Heroes community. The forums are only representative of the multiplayer community, which is a very small portion of the overall Heroes community. The vast majority of players only play single player and maybe a couple of games of hotseat.
Heroes 4, patched but otherwise as is, is by far the worst game in the series to the person who only plays single player. In this respect, I would say Jim is probably correct in saying that Heroes 3 has a bigger following.
But just because Heroes 3 has a bigger following doesn't mean they knows what's best for the series. Heroes 3 is my favorite game in the series, but I don't want Heroes 5 to be a Heroes 3 expansion. I've already played Heroes 3, it's time for something new. It doesn't have to be what Heroes 4 was, but it should be something new...
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Asmodean
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Heroine at the weekend.
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posted January 12, 2004 01:37 AM |
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The fun of H3 for me was the new town types, creatures, magic types, skills and map objects that H2 didn't have.
The fun of H4 was exactly the same.
That's what I'm most looking forward to in H5.
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To err is human, to arr is pirate.
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Svetac
Promising
Known Hero
Saintified Paladin
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posted January 12, 2004 06:10 AM |
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Quote:
And I am quite familiar with the HoMM community, since I have been visiting a lot of forums for more than a year now, on a daily base. What I found is that the fast majority of people supports HoMM4, with a few isolated cases of HoMM3 supporters shouting between them.
This is one statement that proves that the forums are biased towards Heroes 4, due to the fact that majority Heroes 2 and Heroes 3 fans left the boards. See, I frequent the boards since oldest of times when it comes to heroes, just after Heroes 2 was published. And from that time, there's no single person that left on the boards. Why? Because they were dissapointed by Heroes 4. Heck, even Quirkish Dragon, the man that was responsible for the beggining of the community of HoMM discarded H4. So your statement is really as unobjective as it can be, and this things are something you tend to overlook. But luckily Fabrice himself said that he is great fan of Heroes 3, also he said that he is to take back the series to it's roots, and make it more about strategy and less about RPG. New skills system and new stuff, hell yes, we need refreshment and combination of the best things from Heroes 2, Heroes 3 and Heroes 4. And I have faith that Ubi will deliver that.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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--- Paladin of the Macedon ---
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