Heroes of Might and Magic Community
visiting hero! Register | Today's Posts | Games | Search! | FAQ/Rules | AvatarList | MemberList | Profile


Age of Heroes Headlines:  
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
6 Aug 2016: Troubled Heroes VII Expansion Release - read more
26 Apr 2016: Heroes VII XPack - Trial by Fire - Coming out in June! - read more
17 Apr 2016: Global Alternative Creatures MOD for H7 after 1.8 Patch! - read more
7 Mar 2016: Romero launches a Piano Sonata Album Kickstarter! - read more
19 Feb 2016: Heroes 5.5 RC6, Heroes VII patch 1.7 are out! - read more
13 Jan 2016: Horn of the Abyss 1.4 Available for Download! - read more
17 Dec 2015: Heroes 5.5 update, 1.6 out for H7 - read more
23 Nov 2015: H7 1.4 & 1.5 patches Released - read more
31 Oct 2015: First H7 patches are out, End of DoC development - read more
5 Oct 2016: Heroes VII development comes to an end.. - read more
[X] Remove Ads
LOGIN:     Username:     Password:         [ Register ]
HOMM1: info forum | HOMM2: info forum | HOMM3: info mods forum | HOMM4: info CTG forum | HOMM5: info mods forum | MMH6: wiki forum | MMH7: wiki forum
Heroes Community > Library of Enlightenment > Thread: Attack/Defence rating
Thread: Attack/Defence rating This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Spudami
Spudami

Tavern Dweller
posted March 09, 2004 10:27 AM

Attack/Defence rating

I have played HOMM2 for a long time, a friend gave me his "3" disc I was just wondering if the attack/Defence rating worked the same In "3" as in "2"?
____________
HEY HEY HEY! wait a tick...so what your saying is...soccer...my head hurts...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Basilisk
Basilisk

Tavern Dweller
from the Basilisk Pit
posted March 09, 2004 10:30 AM

Well i'm not sure because i've only ever played HOMM3, but i'm sure somebody here can help you out.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
doomnezeu
doomnezeu


Supreme Hero
Miaumiaumiau
posted March 09, 2004 10:37 AM

If you mean that the damage inflicted still follows the same equation then yes
If you mean that the creatures have kept their atack/defence stats, then no, the creatures have changed.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Spudami
Spudami

Tavern Dweller
posted March 09, 2004 10:40 AM

Yes i ment the equation, Thanks!
____________
HEY HEY HEY! wait a tick...so what your saying is...soccer...my head hurts...

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Zsa
Zsa


Famous Hero
posted March 12, 2004 12:58 AM

?

Wut was the equation? :\

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
KingofMinota...
KingofMinotaurs


Known Hero
Ruling the minotaurs below
posted March 12, 2004 06:16 PM

I think it is each attack of the attacker above the defense of the defender adds 5% extra damage. Also each defense of the defender above the attack of the attacker reduces damage by 5%.
____________
Be who you will be who you are but i'm the King of the Minotaur.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dingo
Dingo


Responsible
Legendary Hero
God of Dark SPAM
posted March 13, 2004 06:04 AM

Hmmmm I don't know what happend.  Equation and Question look like.
____________
The Above Post/Thread/Idea Is CopyRighted by, The Dingo Corp.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Xarfax111
Xarfax111


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
The last hero standing
posted March 13, 2004 12:21 PM

Quote:
I think it is each attack of the attacker above the defense of the defender adds 5% extra damage. Also each defense of the defender above the attack of the attacker reduces damage by 5%.


You are wrong:

attack > defense = +5%
attack < defense = -2%

Maximum of additional damage = 400%
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 13, 2004 03:21 PM

Quote:

You are wrong:

attack > defense = +5%
attack < defense = -2%

Maximum of additional damage = 400%



Xarfax, wasn´t there a maximum of damage reducing as well?
Couldn´t remember anymore, but what will happen, if attack skill is 10 and defense skill is 60 (50*2%=100%)?

Was ist like max. 80% or something like that?
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Maste...
Dragon_Master_55


Dragons RULE
posted March 13, 2004 06:41 PM

More in HoMM3

There are much bigger battle area in homm3 and the attack/defence power is alomst doubled

Black Dragon 1 in homm2 15 attack 15 def

Archangel 1 in homm3 without expansion 30 attack 30 def.

If you osnow in expansion there are azure dragon 50 attack 50 def 75-80 damage (AWSOME)!
____________
Ohh, you've got a necro! I'm reaally petryfied! I have to slay you with my unbreakable, immortal army of DUNGEON, MO0OHAHAHAHA!!!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 13, 2004 06:54 PM

The problem with the damage calculation in Heroes 3 is that the manual gives false information. Attack skill is compared with defense skill and that determines the damage modifier. However, for every point that the defense skill is higher than the attack skill, damage is reduced with 2.5%, while the manual says it is 2%. If the attack skill is higher than the defense skill, damage is increased with 5% as Xarfax already mentioned.

There is indeed a maximum of damage reduction as well, as angelito suggested. If the defense skill is 28 or more points higher than the attack skill, damage reduction will be no more than 30% (as 28*2.5=70). Also, minimum amount of damage that an attack does is 1.

To come back to Spudami's original question, in heroes 3 the damage calculation is not fundamentally different from that in heroes 2. However, in heroes 2 for every point that the attack skill was higher than the defense skill, a bonus of 10% damage was added. For every point that defense skill was higher than attack skill, damage reduction was 5%. So if in heroes 2 the attacker has 3 attack and the defender 8, the amount of damage is reduced to 75% of the base damage. I think it makes sense now why primary skill boosters were generally much less common in h2 than in h3.

I hope this comes in handy. I myself at least find this information very useful for calculating retaliation damage accurately.
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 13, 2004 07:43 PM

Yeah....Wub is back in town..

Thx for the info, couldn´t remember it anymore...
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Dragon_Maste...
Dragon_Master_55


Dragons RULE
posted March 16, 2004 08:43 PM

to wub

ok... where did you find this?
____________
Ohh, you've got a necro! I'm reaally petryfied! I have to slay you with my unbreakable, immortal army of DUNGEON, MO0OHAHAHAHA!!!

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted March 17, 2004 12:44 AM

Wub knows all.
There a (just) a few guys u have to take seriously here and Wub is 1 of them.
____________
People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 17, 2004 07:00 PM

I already knew this equasion (apart from the error in the manual), but i want to ask you, more experienced players: Don't those numbers in the equasion mean that attack is better than defence? It's 5% vs 2.5%. This implies that when offered, we should go for the attack more often. What do you think?
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
angelito
angelito


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
posted March 17, 2004 10:14 PM

About the maximum reduction of damage, i had an interesting situation yesterday.

I played with fortress, Tazar, Level 28, defence skill 56.

I attacked a castle town with no defending hero in it.
First round, Archangels´ turn.
They flew towards my ammocart and attacked it.
They made 37 damage!!

Normaly, AA´s make 50 damage. So 4 AA´s make 200 damage.
AA`s had an attack skill of 31 (30 + 1..native ground/ castle).
My ammocart had a defence skill of 61 (5 own + 56)

So the difference is 30.

Tazar is expert amorer and Lev 28, that makes damage reduction of 36% (15% + 15%*(28*0,5%)).

If the AA´s do 37 instead of 200 damage, they have had a reduction of 81,5%.

Defence redcution coz of A/D diffence was 75% (30*2,5%)
and armorer speciality was 36%

How could that math work?
Simply like this:

The reduction coz of A/D difference is 2% (and not 2,5!!)
And the armorer speciality is not summoned!!

Look:

A/D diff = 30 ----> 30*2% = 60%
Armorer speciality = 36% -------> 36% of 60% = 21,6%
60% + 21,6% = 81,6%
200 (normal damage of 4 AA´s) * 81,6% = 163,2
----> reduction is 163,2 ----> 200 - 163,2 = 36,8

And that is exact the damage the AA´s did on the ammocart!!

What do you think about that Wub?
Have i made a mistake in my math here?

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Wub
Wub


Responsible
Famous Hero
posted March 18, 2004 05:49 PM bonus applied.
Edited By: Wub on 18 Mar 2004

Quote:
to wub

ok... where did you find this?


Sometimes you need to know if there's a chance to lose any creatures if you place a first strike on an enemy creature stack with one of your stacks. Soon I found out that the damage formula in the manual did not predict that retaliation damage well. Also, when I put combat statistics on during battle, it appeared that I arrived at different damage values than the actual damage when I used the formula with 2%. When I tested the damage calculation in a testmap some time ago, I found out that damage reduction is indeed 2.5% per point.

By the way, Dragon Master, you mentioned that the attack and defense skills are doubled in heroes 3 compared with heroes 2. That should also make sense now. If the designers wanted to keep the power gap between high and low level creatures similar, the different damage calculation system made it necessary to double the creature stats (as the effect of every statpoint was halved).


Quote:
I already knew this equasion (apart from the error in the manual), but i want to ask you, more experienced players: Don't those numbers in the equasion mean that attack is better than defence? It's 5% vs 2.5%. This implies that when offered, we should go for the attack more often. What do you think?

I'm not at all an experienced player, but I think I can answer your question to some extent, Svarog. First, it is not really true that because 5% > 2.5%, attack is better than defense. A damage reduction of 100%, for example, is infinitely better than a damage increase of 100%, because the former means that your troops are completely invincible, while the latter means that your troops do 'only' double damage. In fact, a damage reduction of 50% (damage is halved) is more or less equal to a damage increase of 100% (damage is doubled). And a damage reduction of 20% (=damage/1.25) is more or less equal to a damage increase of 25% (=damage*1.25).

There are a lot of other considerations than purely mathematical ones too, though. Some players have argued, for example, that when you are opposing a hero with big spells (implosion, resurrection, chainlightning), it is better that your troops do increased damage than that they reduce hostile damage. After all, since the enemy hero can cast a devastating spell every round, you want the battle to last as few rounds as possible and you need attack more than defense for that. Also, you'd probably rather have mnay attack points than defense points on, for example, your grand elves or ballista.

On the other hand, some players have argued that there are situations in which you typically want defense. For example, the utopia trick at lower difficulty levels (where you can take a dragon utopia with only a few hydra's and some fodder by exploiting an AI loophole) seems to work best with very high defense. Also, if you have a high level direct damage spellcaster yourself, you rather have a few defense than a few attack points.

Finally when a hero with attack 0 and defense 10 combats a hero that has 10 attack and 0 defense, attack and defense are perfectly in balance. Therefore this discussion about which primary skill is better is only valid for substantial attack/defense differences.


Quote:
What do you think about that Wub?
Have i made a mistake in my math here?


I must admit that you got me confused there for some time angelito . I immediately run the test again in which I pitted two angels against an archangel, and indeed they did 75 damage, so damage reduction for every damage point is indeed 2.5%. So I looked at your calculation a bit more. I think you made an error in the limit of minimum damage. When the defense skill is more than 28 points higher than the attack skill, damage reduction is still not higher than 70%. In your example however you wrote that because A/D difference was 30, damage reduction was 75%, so you did not take into account the maximum damage reduction.

If you do the calculation again now, the archangels would do 0.64*0.3*200=38.4 damage. This is still different the archangel's actual damage. Your calculation that Tazar's armor specialty decreases damage with 36%, seems right to me, but I decided to test it anyway. I made a level 28 Tazar, who had some cavaliers with a defense skill of 31. I attacked some archangels who had an attack skill of 31. Due to his armor specialty, you would expect that 2 archangels would do 64 damage and that 20 archangels would do 640 damage. The actual damage was 63 and 639, though. Therefore it seems that the actual damage is one damage point lower than you would expect when something like armorer is involved. So in your example, where you would expect 38 damage, the actual damage is 37.

So I think the damage reduction of 2.5% for every defense point is correct, but you're right that there is still a slight inaccuracy (which is due to the fact that the computer sometimes rounds off damage in a strange way).  
____________

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
kuma
kuma


Promising
Supreme Hero
u can type so much text in her
posted March 18, 2004 06:20 PM

Just a red star as a little hope we will have more posts like these again.


____________
People used to call me crazy, but now that I'm rich I am excentric.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Svarog
Svarog


Honorable
Supreme Hero
statue-loving necrophiliac
posted March 19, 2004 05:39 PM

Quote:
I'm not at all an experienced player, but I think I can answer your question to some extent, Svarog.

LOL!!!
Hey, kuma, how dare you give QPs for unexperienced players that offer such poor explanations for the game?

Thanx anyway, Wub.
____________
The meek shall inherit the earth, but NOT its mineral rights.

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | PP | Quote Reply | Link
iliecostin
iliecostin

Tavern Dweller
posted September 07, 2012 10:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:

You are wrong:

attack > defense = +5%
attack < defense = -2%

Maximum of additional damage = 400%



Xarfax, wasn´t there a maximum of damage reducing as well?
Couldn´t remember anymore, but what will happen, if attack skill is 10 and defense skill is 60 (50*2%=100%)?

Was ist like max. 80% or something like that?


Max damage reduction for defense is 30% (2%*15)

 Send Instant Message | Send E-Mail | View Profile | Quote Reply | Link
Jump To: « Prev Thread . . . Next Thread » This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
Post New Poll    Post New Topic    Post New Reply

Page compiled in 0.0555 seconds