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| Thread: "Hero skill rebalance mod" under construction | |
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 09, 2004 05:42 PM |
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"Hero skill rebalance mod" under construction
As veterans already know, some hero types are to be avoided like plague just because they have a rather high chance of getting junk skills like Eagle Eye or Learning. (Witches have the highest chance to learn EE, while Alchemists carry the questionable 'bonus' of getting Learning most often of all hero types, in case you didn't know.)
To even the playground amongst the different hero types, I'm making a mod to correct these glitches. I'm NOT considering making them identical (that would be boring), but making it more likely that each hero type gets a good set of skills offered at level-ups.
Following skills shall appear more often:
Air Magic (Mass Haste alone is reason enough)
Earth Magic
Wisdom
Armorer
Offense
Logistics
Tactics/Archery (depending on town type)
Following skills shall appear less often:
Eagle Eye (Are you serious?)
Estates (Nice on a secondary but not worth risking on main)
Learning (Gives 1 extra level tops at the cost of 3 wasted)
First Aid (Doesn't really work with unit stacks)
Artillery (Might help during first week, but that's it)
Mysticism (3 SP/day is a laugh)
Sorcery (Negligible bonus)
Scouting (Too circumstantial)
Navigation (Too circumstantial)
Removing a given skill completely isn't quite feasible, as there's always some hero that begins with the skill so they'd have to be banned as well.
Feedback appreciated.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted June 09, 2004 06:03 PM |
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Well, looks like s good idea to me.
The skills u list really aren't that useful 
for wich version/adon of the game will it be?
regrads
Daddy
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 09, 2004 06:14 PM |
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I'm doing this mod for Heroes 3 Shadow of Death/Complete, but I suppose that it can be applied to RoE/AB as well. WOG has pretty decent balance in its secondary skills, IMHO, so no need to re-rebalance it.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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Daddy
Responsible
Supreme Hero
and why not.
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posted June 09, 2004 06:37 PM |
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I like your idea, keep it up.
As I play AB I would like it if u did that for Ab, too  
regards
Daddy
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Angelspit
Famous Hero
Warrior of the Heavens
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posted June 09, 2004 07:20 PM |
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That's interesting. Keep us posted on your progress.
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted June 09, 2004 07:25 PM |
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What about Water Magic? IMHO it's a better magic school than air and needs to appear more often.
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Group
Hired Hero
Beastmaster of Human Flesh
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posted June 10, 2004 12:32 AM |
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Quote:
Following skills shall appear less often:
Eagle Eye (Are you serious?)
Estates (Nice on a secondary but not worth risking on main)
Learning (Gives 1 extra level tops at the cost of 3 wasted)
First Aid (Doesn't really work with unit stacks)
Artillery (Might help during first week, but that's it)
Mysticism (3 SP/day is a laugh)
Sorcery (Negligible bonus)
Scouting (Too circumstantial)
Navigation (Too circumstantial)
What about scholar? who needs that so often?
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"L'extreme est ailleurs. Il n'est entierement atteint que communique(l'HoMMe est plusieurs, la solitude est le vide, la nullite, le mensonge)." G.Bataille
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 10, 2004 09:22 AM |
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First test run:
Everything else goes to ban except for Wisdom. Even if I had set its probability of appearing to zero, I got offered wisdom at 6th, 12th and 18th level-up. I tested with a Knight, but I assume it's the same for all hero types as I've read somewhere that Wisdom was classified as a 'must get' skill by the developers and they hard-wired it to appear every now and then no matter of the probabilities assigned.
Also, if you manage to get at least Basic level on any skill, you'll eventually start going up with that skill. If the skill is otherwise banned for you, you'll get a chance to better that skill after all your other skill slots have been filled up. Thus, Rangers can get Expert Fire magic by visiting a witch hut/university/magic university and getting to a high enough level so that the remaining skill slots are all at Expert.
More to come tomorrow.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 11, 2004 01:01 PM |
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Edited By: rechet on 11 Jun 2004
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Here's the first draft version of the mod. I'm expecting comments on some of the skill choices, so don't consider these set in stone. Some of them are more of a "goes with the theme" thing rather than fully though-out balance issue.
In order to make the choice between might and magic actually mean something, there will be a significant reduction in might heroes' ability to gain magic skills and vice versa. As Wisdom can't be totally banned, might heroes will still get Wisdom offered at levels 6, 12 and 18, even if their chance to learn it is set (mostly) at zero.
Unless specifically mentioned, might heroes can't get following skills:
Eagle Eye
Mysticism
Scholar
Wisdom (see note above)
Intelligence
Sorcery
All four magic schools
Correspondingly, magic heroes won't learn following skill unless specifically mentioned:
Offense
Armorer
Artillery
Ballistics
Tactics
Leadership
Luck
Archery
Legend:
Must = Highest probability of appearing but also hard to avoid taking.
High = Somewhat heightened probability of appearing.
None = Banned skill for this hero type, short of initial skills and huts/scholars.
MIGHT HEROES
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Knight
Must = Offense, Armorer, Leadership
High = Tactics, Archery, Estates
None = Luck
Having Estates popping up acts as a counterbalance since Knights get 4 good skills otherwise.
Ranger
Must = Armorer, Luck, Archery
High = Tactics, Pathfinding, Scouting
None = Offense
Scouting & Archery are a 'theme' thing, but might be a bit too much in terms of balance?
Alchemist
Must = Archery, Logistics, *Air Magic*
High = Armorer, Scouting, *Scholar*
None = Leadership
Air Magic & Logistics rule, so other skills are mediocre.
Demoniac
Must = Offense, Luck, *Fire Magic*
High = Armorer, Ballistics, Logistics
None = Archery
Good overall skills, so banning Archery evens out. (They wouldn't need it much anyway.)
Death Knight
Must = Offense, Tactics, Necromancy
High = Armorer, Ballistics, Estates
None = Leadership
Just as with Knights, Estates works as a counterbalance.
Overlord
Must = Offense, Ballistics, Leadership
High = Tactics, Archery, *Wisdom*
None = Armorer
Banning Armorer works as a counterbalance.
Beastmaster
Must = Armorer, Ballistics, *Water Magic*
High = Leadership, Logistics, Pathfinding
None = Offense
Banning Offense counterbalances otherwise excellent skill choices.
Barbarian
Must = Offense, Tactics, Pathfinding
High = Ballistics, Leadership, Scouting
None = Armorer
Offense is the best defense ideology to the max.
Planeswalker
Must = Scouting, *Air Magic*, *Earth Magic*
High = Archery, Pathfinding, *Mysticism*
None = Offense, Armorer
Most magic skills counterbalanced by poor skill choises and two banned might skills.
MAGIC HEROES
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Cleric
Must = Wisdom, Intelligence, Water Magic
High = Air Magic, Earth Magic, *Leadership*
None = Fire Magic
Druid
Must = Wisdom, Intelligence, Earth Magic
High = Water Magic, Pathfinding, *Luck*
None = Fire Magic
Wizard
Must = Wisdom, Intelligence, Air Magic
High = Earth Magic, Fire Magic, Estates
None = Sorcery (Solmyr starts with it, so he'll get it)
Heretic
Must = Wisdom, Sorcery, Fire Magic
High = Air Magic, Intelligence, *Luck*
None = Water Magic
Necromancer
Must = Wisdom, Fire Magic, Necromancy
High = Intelligence, Sorcery, Air Magic
None = Logistics (to slow down skelly legions)
Warlock
Must = Wisdom, Sorcery, Earth Magic
High = Intelligence, Air Magic, Fire Magic
None = Water Magic
Witch
Must = Intelligence, Water Magic, *Armorer*
High = Wisdom, Air Magic, Logistics
None = Fire Magic
Battle Mage
Must = Air Magic, Pathfinding, *Offense*
High = Wisdom, Intelligence, Logistics
None = Water Magic
Elementalist
Must = Air Magic, Earth Magic, Water Magic
High = Wisdom, Intelligence, Fire Magic
None = Sorcery, Scholar, Logistics (No need to make fastest army even faster)
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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ratmonky
Famous Hero
Abu Hur Ibn Rashka
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posted June 12, 2004 08:36 PM |
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Quote:
Ranger
Must = Armorer, Luck, Archery
High = Tactics, Pathfinding, Scouting
None = Offense
Scouting & Archery are a 'theme' thing, but might be a bit too much in terms of balance?
Demoniac
Must = Offense, Luck, *Fire Magic*
High = Armorer, Ballistics, Logistics
None = Archery
Good overall skills, so banning Archery evens out. (They wouldn't need it much anyway.)
Overlord
Must = Offense, Ballistics, Leadership
High = Tactics, Archery, *Wisdom*
None = Armorer
Banning Armorer works as a counterbalance.
Beastmaster
Must = Armorer, Ballistics, *Water Magic*
High = Leadership, Logistics, Pathfinding
None = Offense
Banning Offense counterbalances otherwise excellent skill choices.
Well, I liked most of them, but i have arguments against these ones:
no resistance for rangers???
Inferno is a defensive town, so armorer should a must instead of offense and firemagic without wisdom is useless as all good firespells are either 3rd or 4th level
dungeon having two shooters, three flyers and a ballista blacksmith doesn't really need ballistics skill. Instead Artillery would work fine.
beastmasters have really very low knowledge and power so water magic won't help them much. I think they deserve a better skil...
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 14, 2004 09:17 AM |
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D'oh! I knew I had forgotten about some skills..
But yes, Ranger is the prime candidate for Resistance skill. It can replace that Scouting I proposed. =)
Note taken on Demoniacs. I was thinking 'a bit like a knight but more offensively oriented', as I can't associate Demoniac to much of anything concrete I know about. I'm not so sure about the need of Wisdom for them, though.. A might hero tossing Fireballs and Armageddons? Hardly. (Note that heroes get Wisdom offered at 6th, 12th and 18th level-up even if I ban the skill, so you can still get it if you want to. Just not as soon.)
Water magic on Beastmasters: I was mostly thinking about Cure/Dispel/Bless, not Prayer/Clone/Water Elemental. =) No need to have much of knowledge for 1st level spells. That would make Beastmaster the only might hero that can easily nullify multiple Blinds and take down enemy's buff spells. Pretty good thing for a might hero, IMHO. (Fire Magic on Demoniacs is just to make Curse a viable combat spell. Blind is already superior, even without the expertise.)
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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kwahraps
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 14, 2004 05:08 PM |
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>>Following skills shall appear less often:
>>Eagle Eye (Are you serious?)
>>Estates (Nice on a secondary but not worth risking on main)
>>Learning (Gives 1 extra level tops at the cost of 3 wasted)
>>First Aid (Doesn't really work with unit stacks)
>>Artillery (Might help during first week, but that's it)
>>Mysticism (3 SP/day is a laugh)
>>Sorcery (Negligible bonus)
>>Scouting (Too circumstantial)
>>Navigation (Too circumstantial)
Would it be more feasible to make these skills more productive???
For example :
Current estates yields 125, 250, then 500 gold for each level. What if you doubled that amount??? Would that make the skill more playable??? What amount would???
Learning right now is 5, 10, then 15% extra experience.
What if it were 10, 20, 40 or 10, 25, 50% extra experience?
What amounts would make the skill more intriguing?
Scouting is 1, 2, and 3 extra squares per level.
What if it were 2, 4, and 6?
Or, what if it were 1, 2, and 3 and extra movement per level???
Mysticism is +2, 3, then 4 points per level.
What if it were doubled, or based on character level, or half the power of a spell caster with the mysticism special ability???
Sorcery is 5, 10, then 15% increased efficiency.
What if it were 10, 20, 40 or 10, 25, 50% increased efficiency???
I think there are alternatives here . . . instead of reducing the chances of getting these skills, lets make them worth obtaining. Otherwise, everyone always goes after the same skill set until you get that dreaded choice :
Basic Eagle Eye or Basic Navigation
Thanks for your time.
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 14, 2004 05:33 PM |
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The problem is that I don't know a way to alter the skills themselves, I can only access their probability of appearing. Remember that this is only a minor fix to rebalance the hero types now that it's generally agreed upon which skills are preferred and which are not. I'm not planning to reinvent the wheel known as Wake of Gods (WOG), just making a new ruleset to be used when absolute fairness in gameplay is required. (TOH tournament, anyone?)
And yes... Having to choose between Eagle Eye and Learning at level-up is THE reason for this mod. Even if I won't make it totally impossible (you can still get unlucky with Witch Huts etc), reducing the odds of it happening to infinitesimal figures should do.
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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kwahraps
Adventuring Hero
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posted June 15, 2004 04:29 PM |
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I'm curious, but is the Witch Hut entirely random?
Or can you select which skills are available???
Obviously, Necromancy can never be obtained from a scholar or witch hut, right???
I'm positive that I've had Thant acquire basic leadership from a Witch Hut, but the Undead have no morale, so it was kind of useless.
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rechet
Hired Hero
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posted June 15, 2004 05:41 PM |
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Unless you customize the witch hut in the SOD map editor to only allow for a certain set of skills, most of the skills are enabled as default. IIRC, Necromancy isn't enabled, but as you noticed, Leadership is.
Customizing all witch huts is not only cumbersome, but also pretty much impossible when random maps are considered. (Impossible in the sense of being able to do it without seeing the whole map and so on.)
NOTE TO SELF: Gotta try what happens if one disables a secondary skill in the "Skills" tab - heroes don't get offered the skills, so maybe witch huts won't offer it either?
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Jukka Mikkonen a.k.a Sir Rechet
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Frick
Known Hero
and eternal n00b.
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posted June 15, 2004 08:07 PM |
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Keep it coming... I like the general ideas, but as I see it, the game can be more boring this way. Why? Because it's almost fun to have a supreme magic-hero, and the only skills you're offered at a level-up are scouting and learning. Ok, that's not fun... :?
And I've have Knights that got Necro from scholars... That's annoying.
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Kaboth
Hired Hero
Forum Vampire Killer
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posted June 16, 2004 11:04 PM |
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This mod sounds like a good idea, could it be used in multiplayer especially TOH games even if the other player doesn't have the mod installed?
I suppose even if its restricted to just single player or has limited multiplayer compatibility it has the advantage of keeping the flavour of classic civ yet rebalancing it rather than the radical rebalance of WOG.
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