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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: How do Attack and Defense skills work exactly?
Thread: How do Attack and Defense skills work exactly? [ This thread is 2 pages long: (1) 2 ]
Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted April 20, 2006 02:33 PM bonus applied.
Edited by Lich_King on 20 Apr 2006

How do Attack and Defense skills work exactly?

Stole the title from angelito. :-p

And it's based on demo.

Formula for basic damage bonus(without Attack skill) is the same as in H3. Attack-Defense*5%. Game always round down any damage.

Example:

20 Imps on hero with 2 Attack primary skill hit skeletons.

20*((Imp's Attack-Skeletons' Defense)*5%)*base damage (used min. here)
20*((5-2)*5%)*2
20*(15%*2)
20*2.3
------
46 dmg

Nothing new, if you know Heroes 3. Was the same.

Though, now expert Attack (Offense) works a bit differently than in H3. First, it's just 15%, rather than 30%. But, now it adds 15% of overall damage, not just on base one.

Example:

24 Hell Hounds attack Plague Zombies. Hell Hounds' Attack is 16, Zombies' Defense is 2.

New formula would be:

(24*((HH's Attack-Zombies' Defense)*5%)*base dmg)*15% (expert offense - 5% for basic, 10% for advanced)

(24*(70%*3)*15%
(24*5.1)*15%
122.4*15%
---------------
140.76 dmg

In Heroes 3 it was a bit different. Atleast I think so. There was Offense bonus on base damage, not overall.

Something like this:

Base Damage+Expert Offense bonus (15% of base damage)+Att./Def. bonus damage (70% of base damage)
3+.45+2.1
5.55*ofcourse number of critters (24)
---------------
133.2 dmg

Angelito explained that much better than I have here:

http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?FID=6&TID=11801

In conclusion, lower than in H3, but works 'better' than in H3.

Also, for Archery, it's set to 20%. No basic, adv. or expert archery. Always 20%.

Now, damage reduction. In my pitiful tests, it doesn't work like in H3. Manual there says it's 2% reduction for every point from Defense-Attack, Wub says it's 2.5%, and Angelito says it's none of that, but 2.125%. Well, for H5, it's not even none of that. :-)

Seems much closer to 3% actually, but still formula doesn't give results as in game. Awfully close, but not exact for now. Might be different formula though? More tests for that! As for Defense skill as well. Post haste!

So, to be continued. :-)


~Thank you for doing interesting research~
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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted April 20, 2006 09:27 PM

Damage Reduction

It seems it's 3.3%, even though there are some smallish inconsistencies.



All pretty close as game says. And maybe game calculates for individual critters, rounding them up or down, and then multiplies with their quantity?

Anyway, Succubus damage is only one that's pretty far. If attacking creature with lower defense, then it works correctly, 20%, tested. But now, seems that it's actually 49% bonus. Or it's different formula, or having some more unknown bonus when attacking wights...or most likely, I screwed something.

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Vlaad
Vlaad


Admirable
Legendary Hero
ghost of the past
posted April 20, 2006 09:35 PM
Edited by Vlaad on 20 Apr 2006

Quote:
Anyway, Succubus damage is only one that's pretty far. If attacking creature with lower defense, then it works correctly, 20%, tested. But now, seems that it's actually 49% bonus. Or it's different formula, or having some more unknown bonus when attacking wights...or most likely, I screwed something.

Have your results been taken from the Inferno scenario? The demon lord named Jezebeth has the Temptress specialty (all Succubi gain offence and defence bonuses per hero's level).
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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted April 20, 2006 10:43 PM

Yeah, from that scenario.

And yep, all calculated already, and as I said, archery works normal (20%) if you have higher attack than opponent's defense, but vice versa...getting those weird results for now.

Formula might be different for archers I guess. Will try soon with haven troops.
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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted May 27, 2006 02:09 PM
Edited by Nebuka at 14:28, 16 Jun 2006.

Pitsu from CH found correct formula for damage reduction, bloody excellent. Too bad lazy guys from UBI/Nival didn't think to put that in manual.

Damage formulas

And if anyone cares, and wants, here's damage calculator made in excel:

Calculator
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Pitsu
Pitsu


Adventuring Hero
posted May 27, 2006 06:10 PM
Edited by Pitsu at 18:11, 27 May 2006.

Quote:
Pitsu from CH found correct formula for damage reduction,


Thanks It is quite difficult to find a nonlinear regression if you do not even know what type of function there is. 1-X/(20+X) was the simplest working one. since 1/20 = 5% it also sounded the most logic.

Too bad i have been relatively inactive in forums, and missed this thread here until now. Would have saved me to test the damage addition.

BTW, any ideas about the elemental bonus damage? The equation i proposed  at http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=533 gives me occasionally 1 point difference...


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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted May 27, 2006 11:02 PM

archery 20%?

does the archery ability adds 20% bonus to the overall attack or does it simple change the attack bonus from 15 (or 5 or 10) to 20?

for example if i have archery and expert offense does it gives archers 1.15%*1.20% bonus to damage?
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Nebuka
Nebuka


Promising
Supreme Hero
Save me Jebus!
posted May 27, 2006 11:44 PM

Only 20% bonus, attack skill doesn't matter with archers. Also defense skill doesn't matter when someone shoots you. Evasion does though.
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Plexus22
Plexus22


Known Hero
posted May 27, 2006 11:51 PM

Quote:
Pitsu from CH found correct formula for damage reduction, bloody excellent. Too bad lazy guys from UBI/Nival didn't think to put that in manual.

Damage formulas

And if anyone cares, and wants, here's damage calculator made in excel:

Calculator

Thats awesome! Thanks Nebuka.

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aun
aun

Tavern Dweller
posted May 28, 2006 08:39 AM

Damage fomula for spell attack?


Now, as I belief that damage fomula used for normal weapon attack is different from using spell attack, so who can advise, or list out, the damage fomula of the following senarios;

 a) Hero uses spell attack to enemy creature?
 b) Creature, in hero's army, uses spell attack to enemy creature?    

Correct me if any. Thanks.

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 15, 2006 02:43 PM

I have a question concerning the attack and defense skills: it seems that they both add equaly to the total damage (expert attack +15%, expert defense -30%) (based on pitsu's formulas) - is this really so? If it is than defense is a far better skill (except for necro perhaps, because of battle frenzy) and is ingenious for magic based heroes who mostly play defensively.
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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 15, 2006 05:50 PM
Edited by rpgguy at 17:52, 15 Jun 2006.

attack is more usefull than defence that is why attack is only 15% and defence is 30%.

but still 15% seems a little bonus becuase 3 points in a hero attack statistics gives the same bonus plus its ranged and melee not just melee.

so 3 attack bonus to a stat is much better than expert attack! which makes the attack skill looks useless... i mean of i take the enlightment skill at expert then i get 10 stat bonus points at level 20 and a bonus 30% to xp which seems much better than 15% attack bonus!

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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 16, 2006 06:02 AM

Sorry, but I almoust didn't understand a word... You are quite correct though that +3 to attack equals the attack skill.
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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 16, 2006 11:16 AM
Edited by rpgguy at 11:21, 16 Jun 2006.

Quote:
Sorry, but I almoust didn't understand a word... You are quite correct though that +3 to attack equals the attack skill.


ok ill try to explain it better:

+3 to attack is better than expert attack (not equal) becuase it adds to range damage too.

the enlightment skill on expert level (not talking about enlightment abilities) gives you 30% xp bonus AND +1 to hero stat on each 2nd level - so if you are a level 22 demonlord with expert enlightment you might get +11 to your attack skill.

i think everyone will agree +11 to attack and 30% xp bonus is much better than expert attack or even expert defence.

Quote:
I have a question concerning the attack and defense skills: it seems that they both add equaly to the total damage (expert attack +15%, expert defense -30%) (based on pitsu's formulas) - is this really so? If it is than defense is a far better skill (except for necro perhaps, because of battle frenzy) and is ingenious for magic based heroes who mostly play defensively.


expert defence does not increase total damage - it decreases the damage your creatures recieve by 30%.

if your strategy is to try to attack first and kill the enemy before it can retaliate then the attack skill is better for you than the defence skill.

qutoe what you do not understand and i will try to explain better if youre still in the dark here...
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Fuzzier
Fuzzier


Adventuring Hero
posted June 16, 2006 11:27 AM

Quote:
+3 to attack is better than expert attack (not equal) becuase it adds to range damage too.

Not necessarily true, especially when you already have high attack.
Because the formula you used is not accurate.

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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 16, 2006 01:50 PM

Quote:
Quote:
+3 to attack is better than expert attack (not equal) becuase it adds to range damage too.

Not necessarily true, especially when you already have high attack.
Because the formula you used is not accurate.


ok you might be right on this but i would like you to explain a bit more...

as i see it expert attack gives 15% more melee damage and +3 to attack gives +15% melee and ranged damage.

please explain why this is not accurate and how the formula actualy works.
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Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 16, 2006 03:40 PM
Edited by Gus at 15:42, 16 Jun 2006.

Quote:
please explain why this is not accurate and how the formula actualy works.


taken from this link, present in this thread already:
http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=529

here is a quote:
Quote:

A. In case the attackers attack skill is higher than (or equal to) defenders defense:

Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 + 0,05 * (attack-defense)) * (1 + attack boosters) * (1 - defense boosters))
[...]

B. In case attackers attack is lower than defenders defense value

Damage = trunc(creature damage value * stack size * (1 - (defense-attack) / (20+defense-attack)) * (1 + attack boosters) * (1 - defence boosters))

you can see that the bonus from the Attack Skill is not applied in the same way as the bonus from (Attack-Defense), so you can't compare raw percentages like that.
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rpgguy
rpgguy


Adventuring Hero
Scholar
posted June 16, 2006 05:14 PM

yeah well i saw that but i was hoping for an example of an expert attack vs +3 attack. (an example that showing the skill more usefull than the stats).
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Week Of The Rabbit
Triple Growth For All Creatures

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Rainalcar
Rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted June 16, 2006 06:31 PM

Quote:

expert defence does not increase total damage - it decreases the damage your creatures recieve by 30%.


Ofcourse, defense reduces by 30, attack increases by 15.

Quote:
if your strategy is to try to attack first and kill the enemy before it can retaliate then the attack skill is better for you than the defence skill.

qutoe what you do not understand and i will try to explain better if youre still in the dark here...


From before, I did not understand "attack is more usefull than defence that is why attack is only 15% and defence is 30%.", I guess you meant that you will kill faster with attack so you wouldn't need to much defense? Heck, maybe if your initiative is skyhigh, but defense still beats attack almoust every time.

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Gus
Gus


Known Hero
Not-So-Bright Crusader
posted June 16, 2006 10:13 PM

Quote:
yeah well i saw that but i was hoping for an example of an expert attack vs +3 attack. (an example that showing the skill more usefull than the stats).


you can solve the equation yourself, based on the formula.

I'm not sure of myself, but my guess is that it's always better to have Expert Attack than +3 to the Attack stat, but not by much. I don't know when the extra skill points start to become better.
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