|
| Thread: Meeting place for TOH'ers? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 · «PREV / NEXT» |
|
angelito
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
proud father of a princess
|
posted June 20, 2006 03:10 PM |
|
|
If u only have a handfull of maps, and some of them are not even bugfree, u donīt have much other possibilities than playing those "small" ones.
Hope the editor comes out soon and many people out there get their job done and create about 100 playable tournament maps..
____________
Better judged by 12 than carried by 6.
|
|
the_teacher
Supreme Hero
Talk to the hand!
|
|
posted June 20, 2006 04:17 PM |
|
|
Quote:
.... Just curious. Something to think about?
welcome back jinxer ! 
map editor in next patch, the pain will end up.
have a nice day
|
|
zilonite
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 20, 2006 07:54 PM |
|
Edited by zilonite at 19:59, 20 Jun 2006.
|
Quote:
I wonder how clicking the end turn button 4 times makes it a tournament worthy game then? Just curious. Something to think about?
Well...
From the one hand, of course, I agree with you that 5 turns is not a standart ToH game (at least to say).
But, from the other hand, then several very popular homm3 maps should have been banned instead of them becoming all time ToH classics. E.g., the most played map of all times, Desert War - guess, most who read this forum know about the ways how to attack opponent on day 7 or 8 on this map. Also on many open maps that were popular in ToH early seasons you can run from one castle to another on day 7 or 8 easily. Yet completely different thing is, whether you are able not only to rush there but to deliver killing blow, too... E.g., i'm almost sure that this archer-rush thingie will not work against Valky one more time...
Developing this a bit further in homm5 context - have played (at least a bit) 8 out of 10 multiplayer maps that are available now (all but two xl maps). And on 7 out of those 8 (an exception here is Dragon Pass) it is more or less possible to attack the opponent before the end of week 2...
By summing up:
1.Completely agree, map editor is strongly needed for decent ToH games.
2.However, even when there will be hand-made maps for ToH purposes, i'm 100% sure that there will be some popular maps, games on which will take no more days than they did on Desert War.
|
|
Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
|
|
posted June 20, 2006 08:45 PM |
|
|
You dont make your case very strong, using Desert War as an example. You are right that map should NEVER have been a tournament level map. That map was actually very poorly designed. Only reason it was so popular is because it was quick easy points. Most people if given the oppurtunity want the fastest way to earn points.
However, my opinion is and always has been that for a Tournament of TOH level and the skill level of most of the players, the maps and games should be long enough to evaluate there abilities to earn the points.
|
|
Maximus
Famous Hero
Bronzed God
|
|
posted June 21, 2006 01:34 AM |
|
|
toh h5 shouldnt be running while h5 is so unplayable, and it is unplayable atm. think h4 had a better start then this.
hmm, thought this thread was about where to meet up anyways 
____________
Frost. Sometimes it makes the blade stick !
|
|
Rollipolli
Hired Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2006 02:38 AM |
|
|
|
What does everyone think about having a voice server like Ventrilo? I have been gone from heroes for a bit and have been playing other games. Ventrilo would be a great place that everyone could go and meet up for games.
|
|
bobbyohms
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 21, 2006 07:30 PM |
|
|
I appologize for swerving again off the topic of the thread but there are a few points here that I do feel I have to comment on. I have to agree with Jinxer on his feelings about open maps and the current situation going on as far as games getting played now. I do however figure that lack of available playing time is a contibuting fact as well and there wasn't a "Duel" node in HoMM3. However, it has always bothered me that open maps that take at most an hour or so to play (Barring the occasional situation of trading towns and so forth.) count as much as a map that takes 3 hours or more to finish.
For me the fun and addictiveness of this game lies in the fun of exploring maps I've never played before and thinking on my feet (That's why I liked playing Random maps so much in H3.) and building up my hero and army for an epic clash at the end. You can't get that by playing 5 days and it's over. I realize that everyone doesn't have the same opinions about the game and there are many out there who dislike closed maps as much as I dislike open ones. However, I think that we could and should consider how games are counted now before the patch comes to allow everyone to play. Why should a game or better put map that takes typically an hour to play count the same as a map that takes 3 hours or more? In essense you get penalized for playing longer, more difficult and challenging games because someone can play one map 3 or 4 times in the time it takes someone else to play another map once. Why not assign a modifier to a map that adds or subtracts points based upon size and whether it is open or closed? I made a post before about Huge maps that suggests something similar.
I didn't say anything before because there are many who don't know me on here and I didn't want them to think it was because I was 8-0 and had been leading the tournament. I play the game for the fun, enjoyment and comradery it provides. Points and wins I see as more of a sign of achievement or to give meaning to time played and not a means to an end or the reason to play the game. (I'm speaking of myself only here not saying anything about anyone else... just clarifying my position. ) Did it feel good to make Squire first and before anyone else even got off the recruit board well heck yeah but because I started HoMM3 0-14 and I'd played literally days not hours worth of time and over 50 games to get there. I don't care if I win or lose (Anyone who has played me can attest to that.) just that everyone had a good time playing and if I win good game and hit me up for a rematch any time and if I lose I'll get 'em next time or die trying. Heck I've even turned down a few wins. For one JB offered to post a loss when we played after the game screwed up but it was very early and there was no definative winner so I declined.
So that said I don't think that just because these couple maps are the only ones that can be played is a valid reason for a few people taking advantage of the situation. As proof of that, I posted how games were getting played a few days ago. Did everyone suddenly start playing like this? Not that I've seen. Pretty much everyone is waiting for the patch to play and not settling for what has been called before no more than duels. Outcasts seems like a joke to me... at least Divided Loyalties it is possible to get to your opponent quick but at least you have to fight a couple things to do it. LOL Personally I have to agree that maybe things should be put on hold until the game is fixed at least.
As for noobs, I realize the game is new to all of us and in that respect we all are noobs but I was refering to people that are new to ToH and tournament play and/or playing Heroes online. I thought I was good at H3 before joining ToH because I found the comp AI easy to beat only to find out how bad I was against other players and I'm sure some of these "noobs" probably are the same. Plus H5 is different and improved in many ways but it is still similar as far as playing on the map to H3. H3 vets learned the tricks and are more likely to be ready for things than the noobs are. (No offense Valky. ) Only one game of the 8 I won was played against a non-ToH vet and that was the first or second game I played.
Sorry for making such a long post. Seriously I'm not trying to point any fingers or make any enemies so I hope I haven't offended anyone but the way things are has been really bothering me. I just don't think with the game so unplayable but for the 5 day rushes it's good for the tournament or makes for a good competitive environment. I know I have the option of playing the rush too but for one it would make me a hypocrite and second it wouldn't be any fun or feel FOR ME PERSONALLY like I earned it. Please everyone feel free to comment (Like you needed my permission. ) particularly about changing the way maps are scored for points.
P.S. My two wins on Outcasts were when the map was unknown to me and on one game one player was above and the other below. Please patch be ready soon... I need my Heroes fix! hehe
|
|
Niagaran
Adventuring Hero
Braveheart returns
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 12:58 AM |
|
|
When the game is patched...
I am waiting in the wings Bobby...when I know we can play to a result I would like to restart our fruitless war
If one can lose to a 5 day rush then one can win by defending one...bring it I say to those who wish to catch me with such strategy
Sorry but not playing H5 due to dissapointment...I think 3 hours would be the ideal game length...5-6 is too long and 1/2 - 1 1/2 is too short the game will survive with 3 hour maps!
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 03:22 AM |
|
|
well there you have it
I've been watching silently on this 'land of the outcasts debate' and come with the most appropriate solution.
I put it on the news:
As we wait for the multiplayer patch to facilitate improved connections/gaming, several players have discovered that the Land of the Outcasts map is a quick and easy way to play & defeat new more inexperienced players. In many cases, rushing on the 5th day of the first week, thus winning a game in less than an hour. Because this trick is being abused, all squire or higher ranked players get their ranking points adjusted on playing this map -- to max of 5 points per win.
The positives of those players playing land of the outcasts is that they bring in many new members to ToH, and introduce that community to the tournament side of things.
The negatives of course, is the score inflation. So that has been stopped. Now there is a little more 'risk' to being a higher ranked player using that map selection. But I did not want to ban it entirely, because after analyzing the map in hot seat, the defender can definitely hold off the rush, and in fact, counter with a kill after successfully making a stand.
|
|
zilonite
Famous Hero
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 06:30 AM |
|
|
Guess, Ves made the best possible solution here.
The whole ToH point system is made in the way that earning points is way easier in the beggining than at the end of the season, so basically vet players always are advancing very quick at the start of the season. However in this particular situation, when there is only one very fast map to play and there are only a couple of good players on it and hordes of noobs, this noob-harvesting seems to be no good indeed.
As for myself, stopped playing it already for some days and joining to patch-waiting club
|
|
bobbyohms
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 07:06 AM |
|
|
|
It seems like a very fair solution Ves. Any chance of this being something that might be done for other maps like giving extra points for huge maps? I think the larger maps are bypassed because they often take much longer to play. Be nice to encourage folks to play some of the rarely played huge maps and have some truly epic end battles.
|
|
fiur
Promising
Supreme Hero
Map Creator
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 07:31 AM |
|
|
Well I'm one of the player on the "waiting" list for the 1.2 patch hopefully this one will fix the major MP bugs.....
if not We may loose many "new" heroes players..... (hopefully not)
waiting................. still waiting......
|
|
Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 07:17 PM |
|
|
I like Bobbyohms idea of giving extra points for playing Bigger/Huge maps. I spent hours upon hours designing several maps in H4 that was very astetically pleasing and had deep strategy and plot to them. However only players like Zud and myself etc, would play them seriously because they were bigger more deeply involved maps that took couple more hours then the rush maps. Since people are only interested in points, it would make sense that more people would play the bigger maps if they got something extra for it.
Great idea Bobby! I fully support it. What do you think Ves?
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 08:17 PM |
|
|
|
lol being busy enough as I am, having to review each win/loss then calculate (manually) the adjusted score, now have to manually review games for big maps as well? you must be kidding. I'm just doing this land of the outcsts thng temporarily until it can be 'fixed' with a map editor via patch.
|
|
bobbyohms
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 09:28 PM |
|
|
Quote:
lol being busy enough as I am, having to review each win/loss then calculate (manually) the adjusted score, now have to manually review games for big maps as well? you must be kidding. I'm just doing this land of the outcsts thng temporarily until it can be 'fixed' with a map editor via patch.
I was presenting the idea (I first mentioned it in a post a couple weeks ago Huge Maps .) simply on the premise that it was something that could be achieved through a few tweaks to the automation and the points being adjusted after the normal calcualtion. The idea going something like this:
Smaller or open map: Type A
Winner: Normal Points(NP)- X (X being a set number of points deducted for this type of map.)
Loser: NP (Possibly lose less points.)
Larger or closed map: Type B
Winner: NP
Loser: NP
Huge or XL map: Type C
Winner: NP + Y (Y being a set number of points for this type of map.)
Loser: NP + Z (Z again a set number added)
Ves, seriously I only brought this up as something that I honestly think would be beneficial to the tournament as a whole. The way it works now has always favored players who like open maps and shorter games over those who prefer closed or larger maps in the rankings system for the simple fact that as stated before a player can play 2, 3 or more games on the open/smaller maps in the same time it takes to play 1 game on a closed or larger map. The reason for adding points to the loser on the huge maps (Not to the point of adding enough points to raise them above their point total before the game of course.) I explained in my other post. I really think this idea would encourgage play on a wider scope and finally bring larger maps into play (Plus allowing heroes to possibly attain higher levels for the new aspects of HoMM5 like the Ultimate skill.) but only if it doesn't require massive programming or something. I don't know how the automation works now but it shouldn't be a lot to assign each new map a category when it is added for tournament play and change the points calculation to add or subtract the appropriate points after the normal calculation is made for each map type.
In any case, I hope you didn't think I was trying to stir up trouble or cause any headaches for anyone. I'll certainly shut the heck up if that is the case. LOL
|
|
Jinxer
Legendary Hero
*****
|
|
posted June 22, 2006 10:45 PM |
|
|
Would be COOL if automation could be tweaked as Bobby suggests.
But in the mean time, I would be willing to once again offer my services as TOH volunteer, to manually adjust points etc until patch etc.
Just an idea. If you could use more help let me know ves.
|
|
Patrel
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 23, 2006 05:06 AM |
|
|
I'm in no way saying games should last only 5 days, but on the flip side, a game shouldn't be expected to go 4-5 hours minimum in order to be considered legit.
The main reason I wasn't nearly as active during H3 as I would of liked to of been, is b/c I didn't have the RMG, and I couldn't stand playing anything bigger than Med/no under, causing for not alot of vet opponents to be interested. I admit the problem is mine in that I guess I have a form of gaming ADD , after 2 hours or so I'm dying to get away from the game. I do however love Heroes gameplay, don't get me wrong. But in single player it's no big deal to take short breaks here and there, while this isn't an option for MP.
____________
It's beer-o-clock, where the hell's my riot?! - John Crichton
|
|
arteman
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 23, 2006 08:13 AM |
|
|
Quote:
I was presenting the idea (I first mentioned it in a post a couple weeks ago Huge Maps .) simply on the premise that it was something that could be achieved through a few tweaks to the automation and the points being adjusted after the normal calcualtion. The idea going something like this:
Smaller or open map: Type A
Winner: Normal Points(NP)- X (X being a set number of points deducted for this type of map.)
Loser: NP (Possibly lose less points.)
Larger or closed map: Type B
Winner: NP
Loser: NP
Huge or XL map: Type C
Winner: NP + Y (Y being a set number of points for this type of map.)
Loser: NP + Z (Z again a set number added)
Ves, seriously I only brought this up as something that I honestly think would be beneficial to the tournament as a whole. The way it works now has always favored players who like open maps and shorter games over those who prefer closed or larger maps in the rankings system for the simple fact that as stated before a player can play 2, 3 or more games on the open/smaller maps in the same time it takes to play 1 game on a closed or larger map. The reason for adding points to the loser on the huge maps (Not to the point of adding enough points to raise them above their point total before the game of course.) I explained in my other post. I really think this idea would encourgage play on a wider scope and finally bring larger maps into play (Plus allowing heroes to possibly attain higher levels for the new aspects of HoMM5 like the Ultimate skill.) but only if it doesn't require massive programming or something. I don't know how the automation works now but it shouldn't be a lot to assign each new map a category when it is added for tournament play and change the points calculation to add or subtract the appropriate points after the normal calculation is made for each map type.
I think that "map type" points calculation will make ranks vulnerable to "points addicts". They will agree to make C-map reports upon A-map games. If only there will be "save-attached" condition and special HC post of "C-map saves viewer." So, this idea is not good enough for whole ranks, but could be used for a kind of sub-tourney.
____________
Anyway the wind blows...
|
|
vesuvius
Hero of Order
Honor Above all Else
|
|
posted June 23, 2006 09:14 AM |
|
|
|
arteman is saying exactly what I was thinking.
|
|
bobbyohms
Adventuring Hero
|
|
posted June 23, 2006 04:26 PM |
|
|
To be honest I hadn't really considered that. I'm just too honest I guess. It's really a shame that so many measures have to be put in place to keep people honest.
Anyway, sorry if this idea bothered anyone or caused any trouble. It was only an idea to try to level the playing choices of everyone on the rankings board.
|
|
|
|
