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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Should Raise Dead Behave Like Gating In Duel Mode?
Thread: Should Raise Dead Behave Like Gating In Duel Mode?
dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 20, 2006 09:29 PM

Poll Question:
Should Raise Dead Behave Like Gating In Duel Mode?

Should the raise dead spell behave like gating does in duel mode if the caster isn't undead?

The reason I ask is because it seems very unfair and unbalanced when one can spam raise dead over and over on the same stacks or even collapsed stacks of units causing the duel drag on.

I don't know how many times I've played against someone using Galib who kept spamming it on Titans, Mages, etc.  With Infernal, when the ORIGINAL units are killed, the game is over and Infernal looses, even if there were gated units left.

Should units that are risen from the dead be ignored once the total number of units that have died matches the original count of the units?

Responses:
Yes, raise dead should behave like gating
No
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 20, 2006 09:54 PM

I'd say no - but I am going for a different solution:

Raise the spell level for Raise Dead to level 5, bringing it inline with Resurrection. It's kinda silly that a spell that can permanently raise Undead creatures is only a level 2 spell. Raise Dead should only work on Undead creatures.

Add another spell, called Animate Dead. This one could replace Raise Dead and only lasts through combat. At the end of combat, all Animated creatures vanish again. What they could do is allow a maximum of the original stacksize. A creature once animated is gone for good when it dies (can't be raised again with Raise Dead / Resurrection either, it just doesn't exist anymore).

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 20, 2006 10:11 PM

it shouldn't.

But it should be removed from all duel heroes IMO. It's not a powerful spell (except for necros) in a normal game, but in duel it may be imbalanced bcuz duel is just a single battle without the "consequences" later on.

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 21, 2006 01:08 PM

Quote:
I'd say no - but I am going for a different solution:

Raise the spell level for Raise Dead to level 5, bringing it inline with Resurrection. It's kinda silly that a spell that can permanently raise Undead creatures is only a level 2 spell. Raise Dead should only work on Undead creatures.

Add another spell, called Animate Dead. This one could replace Raise Dead and only lasts through combat. At the end of combat, all Animated creatures vanish again. What they could do is allow a maximum of the original stacksize. A creature once animated is gone for good when it dies (can't be raised again with Raise Dead / Resurrection either, it just doesn't exist anymore).


Agreement = 100%. You won
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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 03:12 PM

Ehm, making the raise dead spell level 5 would kill the Necropolis faction... Their creatures are not that strong and rely on big numbers, but without raise dead they'll never get there against a player with equal skills in another faction.

Remember that Wights and Dragons of the undead kinda... suck. I don't think this is a problem because of raise dead. Take that away and the Necropolis crumbles...

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 21, 2006 03:30 PM

Quote:
Ehm, making the raise dead spell level 5 would kill the Necropolis faction... Their creatures are not that strong and rely on big numbers, but without raise dead they'll never get there against a player with equal skills in another faction.

Remember that Wights and Dragons of the undead kinda... suck. I don't think this is a problem because of raise dead. Take that away and the Necropolis crumbles...


When I play with Undead, Dragons are just some tanking units and I use Wraith for Harm Touch on lvl 7 units. The real threat come from my hero and his spells, my skeleton archers/archliches/vampire lords for damage. Spectres are for taking retalation strikes.

I only use Raise Dead at the very end of the fight to have some necromancy bonus. I don't like hero-spamming-raise-dead feeling in combat.
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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 05:08 PM

I agree with you. Still, raise dead (even only used at the end of the combat) is important in numerous ways since a Necropolis player can't afford to lose too many troops. Of course no faction can afford to lose too many units, but the Necropolis units are proud to own the weakest units of all factions. Good thing moral doesn't count for them

But because these units are weak, Necropolis units fall more easily than other factions'. And soon you'll find your opponent having the same number of units as you; BETTER units.
I agree about the hero being the most dangerous unit, but this could just as well be said about the heroes from other factions.

---

Remember: skeleton archers are very weak, and they should be, but if I know my Necro-enemy doesn't have raise dead I go immediately for those bony bastards. Once killed, Necromancy has become irrelevant (less than 500 skellies mid-game is no skellies )
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 06:22 PM

those "so weak" creatures kill everything in one shot later on. Calling them weak is just a heresy

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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 06:32 PM

I just meant that skellies are weak by themselves. Obviously a Necromancer tries to muster as much of these unholy creatures as possible relying on big numbers.
I merely meant to say that if I have a Necro-enemy I will not let him build up a vast army of skellies unchallenged, and if he hasn't got raise dead this will surely hamper his attempts to create a vast army.  If you can kill an army mid-game of 500 skeletons without him raising any, he won't have a huge number of skeletons late-game.

Don't get me wrong; I'm actually a huge fan of skellies
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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 21, 2006 07:31 PM
Edited by Haldowan at 19:33, 21 Jul 2006.

Agreed. But you mean that the Shrine of the Netherworld is not another possibility for Necromancers ? Necromancy and/or Undead does not mean they have to rely on ONE spell to be effective. If that's true, then I have the feeling that they are more unbalanced than I thought.
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Maurice
Maurice

Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
posted July 21, 2006 08:19 PM

I've played the mission "An Island of One's Own" with Raven and never got the Raise Dead spell; yet, I didn't have any problems different from the usual ones when I do have Raise Dead. And as said above, a faction should not rely on a single spell ...

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted July 21, 2006 08:36 PM

It doesn't.But consider that it is more balanced that they have 50%(?) chance to get it,which helps them in their rather poor beginning.It's not right for it to be in a duel(much less at the hands of a mage) but what's wrong with it otherwise?The ones who really need it have little knowledge and the others won't gain much in the long run(unless it is the final battle).
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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 08:55 PM
Edited by Top-Rob at 23:49, 21 Jul 2006.

Although I must admit I haven't played that Raven scenario, I've played quite a few custom games ('defeat all'-maps). Maybe I'm the only one here thinking that raise dead spell should stay as it should be, but I'm very curious about your strategy Maurice.

What I mean is the following: WITH the raise dead spell I rarely ever lose troops to creeps early game. Without the raise dead spell, I cannot claim this truthfully. You just can't defeat 50 Gremlin masters with your level 1 Necro-hero, 30 skeletons, 15 zombies and maybe 2 ghosts without taking losses. These losses truly will affect the rest of the game.

I never said it was impossible to win without raise dead, nor did I say I rely on the spell. However, it IS a VERY important part of Necro's in general. And since it's there anyway, I don't see anything wrong with that. There are also numerous other factors into play for one to win or lose. For instance: sure if I get the (for my taste all-overpowered Phantom Forces-spell) I wouldn't need raise dead altogether. But since the chances to learn that spell in your castle are limited, THAT would be relying too much on one spell (in my book).

On a personal note: to me, raise dead is an important perk to the Necro's. It's really one that makes me play Necropolis again and again, and when I don't feel like raising dead I rather pick one of the other factions, then "just don't use raise dead". But as I said before, this is very personal and not an argument whatsoever.

Edit: btw I hope you're talking about at least difficulty setting 'hard' or 'heroic'. Anything beneath that against -no matter how many- AI is a joke anyway.
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dfortae
dfortae


Known Hero
posted July 21, 2006 10:21 PM

I think most have missed the point of my post.  DUEL MODE.

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Top-Rob
Top-Rob


Hired Hero
posted July 21, 2006 11:54 PM

Since it's a little strange to have things like spells or skills adapted for duel mode without adapting them in normal play (because if you applied different rules, what's the point of Duel anyway since it's not representive of the game anymore) the discussion moved to what your suggestion meant for normal play.
Yeah, I guess this thread went a little off-topic (I take part of the blame for that, sorry).

Trouble is, as far as I know, duel mode wasn't originally planned. It's added as a feature later. This is screaming for imbalance; the game in duel mode differs so much from normal play that it actually SHOULD have lots of things adapted to make it balanced. But again, doing so would result in a different game. So... duel mode is f*cked one way or the other...

In other words: I wouldn't actually like your suggestion for normal play, and because I wouldn't set different rules for spells/skills in duel mode than for normal play this makes me automatically negative for duel mode.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 22, 2006 07:51 AM

Well, the titan raising dude isn't truly that strong, I managed to beat my friend playing that strategy with deleb and ossir without problems. Ok, it's +4 titans per round, but if your master hunters kill like 8 in each round, it's not a problem. xD

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Haldowan
Haldowan


Adventuring Hero
posted July 22, 2006 08:20 AM

As said by Maurice I think that replacing Raise Dead by Animate Dead should be the right answer for duel mode and the whole game. I see duels like a shortcut to some mid-game battle (200 skeleton archers is a bad joke). I don't know if it's fair to add specific rules just for duels who are always unbalanced because you always know who you are facing (need random hero choice).
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted July 22, 2006 09:22 AM

duel customalization is a thing that will appear in a future patch, expansion, maybe.

yes, the numbers of skeleton archers in duels should be incresed.

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