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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Defend action
Thread: Defend action
Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 04, 2006 01:56 AM
Edited by Elvin at 02:03, 04 Sep 2006.

Defend action

I had never paid much attention how much defence you gain when you defend with a creature.In H3 it used to be +20% but since then defending has become one of the things I do mechanically knowing it helps but not really caring how much.Imagine my shock when my 37 def treant just went 48(+33%!) when I pushed the button.Considering the ranger's focus on defence it seems he gets the most out of it(knights would rather attack with all units but squires) not considering the ancient treants' special take roots(+50% but only when defending-not waiting).Of course they can get light magic fairly easy(mass endurance) and have access to stand your ground for an extra +60% defence.Normally I'd rather get the basic defence abilities but now I'm unsure,unless I have enemies with big stacks of ranged(marksmen,skellie archers) or destructive magic users.Ancient treants always remain last in a battle and it is possible for your strategy to depend on take roots and stand your ground effectively making them like hydras(with a lot more def ).By then enraged will be able to provide some attack bonus too.
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emilsn
emilsn


Legendary Hero
posted September 04, 2006 08:26 AM

What your saying there, is that the treants + Expert defense, last stand, using the defend and Root ability. Makes them the most hard creature to take down... Man that is a good little note to make yourself... They are rather sick but + like a ton of extra defense... cool thing you saw there...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 04, 2006 11:39 AM

if they do so, attack them with hero only, maybe pitlords too or other creatures with def reduction. Imo it's not worthy to go for defense only, there are easy&obvious counters, plus hero's attack, which doesn't take defense into consideration.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 04, 2006 12:52 PM

Quote:
if they do so, attack them with hero only, maybe pitlords too or other creatures with def reduction. Imo it's not worthy to go for defense only, there are easy&obvious counters, plus hero's attack, which doesn't take defense into consideration.


I never said to go just defence all the way,just that in a big battle they can outlive most units mostly because they are slow to join the fight and the  enemy focuses on all other sylvan units.If you get this combination before the battle(should take some time to get skills+upg treants for 8000) you can surprise the opponent just before the end not only with their sheer toughness but the ability to attack all attacking units while defending.Of course so late in the game a good level on light/leadership,luck and logistics will have been achieved making you an efficient hero(I always get defence anyway) but also marking your opponents key units as favoured.That's why the hero's attack ia nothing to worry about too.If the creatures ARE favoured the hero does double damage to them while the opponent does JUST regular to you,if not,rangers deal higher damage anyway.Potential disrupters can be pit lords,archdevils(pitlord summoning) and wraiths as ranged units should have perished by this time.Wraiths are a bit of a problem but so is necropolis anyway:Vamps have no retaliation,ghosts may evade attacks,skellies demand you get evasion from def so no stand your ground.The only thing I'd be really concerned about is the skellies however.Pit lords will be less than treants(horde dwelling) and since your hero does better damage it pretty much evens things for me to be willing to risk it.Archdevils...Can't do much about them,few to several pitlords are bound to be summoned anyway.Just make sure your other units deal as much damage as possible before falling and if you have resurrection so much better.
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 04, 2006 01:12 PM

Btw. does anybody know whether the Stand Your Ground bonus will stack with the Take Roots ability. I mean, basic defence bonus is 30 %, Stand Your Ground provides 60 % (+ 30 %) and Take Roots provides 50 % (+ 20 %). If your hero has Stand Your Ground, and the Treants uses defence action, do they get + 60 % defence, or + 80 % defence (30 % + 30 % + 20 %)? I seem to recall fighting a group of Treants once, and they used the Take Roots and got a defence value that was completely crazy like 82 or something like that.

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 04, 2006 01:16 PM

this is a good endfight strategy, but in real heroes it will be possible  only in very special situations!

vs. Dungeon : if he runs out of spell points after taking out all your other stacks, and you took out at least the hydras, the shooters, and the furys it might work!

vs. Academy : same, just the creatures to take out change !

vs. Necropolis : if you kill the skellies, the vamps, the liches etc. ... maybe even the ghosts and the wraiths .

vs. Inferno : here you don't have to wait for the end of the battle, cause he must charge, since he's got poor ranged ! So protecting the M Hunters and Druids with the A Treant should be enough.

vs. Haven : if you manage to take out the marksmen, this might work!

My oppinion is : nice in theory, only usefull against inferno in practice! There are too many "ifs", if you understand what i mean

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted September 04, 2006 01:25 PM

oh ... and i forgot to say ... I am thinking about a sylvan strategy that skips the ancient treants most of the times .

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 04, 2006 01:45 PM

No need to skip them,4000 aren't that much.Let them accumulate.As a minor note I usually don't buy them And you are right it's not easy to implement but I already pointed it out.Takes place in endgame,you may not have the skills,you may be faced with many opponents that can go around it,you may not kill the key stacks in time etc.The whole point is whether you will invest on stand your ground(I still don't love last stand though it can serously annoy shooters with adjacent units) as take roots works fine anyway.Otherwise it's just another strategy that you have to improvise and depend on your player skills even though it might not work as planned.I never play with a particular strategy in mind unless I face a single human opponent.I love surprising people I guess
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted September 04, 2006 01:45 PM

Split pitlords to two groups, use gating. Bam, 4 extra certain kills per turn. Joy. Oh, and you hero may kill 1-2 per turn too.
Inferno owns defending treants ;p

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted September 04, 2006 01:52 PM

Quote:
Split pitlords to two groups, use gating. Bam, 4 extra certain kills per turn. Joy. Oh, and you hero may kill 1-2 per turn too.
Inferno owns defending treants ;p


I know,I love multiple pitlord stacks myself Summoned,gated,split etc.But will you have 2 big stacks of them at the beginning of the battle?How many large creatures will you have?I agree however that inferno can kick some defending treants' @ss not because of pitlords but because of mark of the damned,excruciating strike and weakening strike.Everytime they retaliate-and they will at least a few times per round-they get hit by the demon lord.And 40% critical is...
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Lamento
Lamento

Tavern Dweller
posted September 04, 2006 02:29 PM

I think Treant is incredible with Def 30%, Stand Your Ground, Take Roots, and Def action. One game my Treants has 146!! Defense. It's awesome!! And this game my Silver Unicorn has 116 (with Ylthin, and her 32 Defs)! This is huge one too.
I call the Treants: "Slow Death"

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sfidanza
sfidanza


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted September 04, 2006 03:35 PM

Quote:
Btw. does anybody know whether the Stand Your Ground bonus will stack with the Take Roots ability. I mean, basic defence bonus is 30 %, Stand Your Ground provides 60 % (+ 30 %) and Take Roots provides 50 % (+ 20 %). If your hero has Stand Your Ground, and the Treants uses defence action, do they get + 60 % defence, or + 80 % defence (30 % + 30 % + 20 %)? I seem to recall fighting a group of Treants once, and they used the Take Roots and got a defence value that was completely crazy like 82 or something like that.

It's even better.

Defend gives a 30% bonus to defense.
Stand your Ground doubles the bonus: -> 60%
Take Roots changes the bonus from 30% to 50% (+unlimited retaliation)
Take Roots + Stand your Ground thus gives +100% bonus on defend

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 04, 2006 03:49 PM

Thanx Sfidanza! That would certainly explain the extreme values obtained in some combats.

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