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| Thread: All adults are god. To question them is blasphemy. | |
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LadyMeryl
Adventuring Hero
of I-state-the-obvious-ology
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posted September 23, 2006 05:18 AM |
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All adults are god. To question them is blasphemy.
I've started college now, and looking back on my childhood and hearing friends decribes their own parent's behaviors.. well, it prompted me to write this. Are adults justified in automatically assuming that they deserve power and respect from children, merely because the child has the misfortune of being born at a younger age?
Many adults, especially parents, and especially parents with multiple kids seem to feel that just because they are older than a child they are a better, more honorable, reasonable person no matter what the situation. They seem to believe they deserve the utmost respect from children, and that to question them is the capital offense.
I've heard more adults than I can count tell me or somebody else "Don't you ever talk that way to an adult!" My question is why? Why does an adult (not just a parent, any adult) deserve that status? Would it make any sense for an honorable kid should have to respect a dishonorable adult? Or is this hunger for respect a sign of fear on the adults part- a show of weakness that makes them even less deserving of the respect than had they not demanded it. Some adults manage to earn their respect, but others just demand it.
My biggest pet peeve in all of this is about "attitude". If an adult does something a child feels is unfair, and the child shows any indication of disagreeing with the adult, the adult often gets onto the child for their "attitude". I believe it is the natural order of things for somebody to get upset when they disagree with something. Adults seem to feel this is a harsh form of disobedience. If a child shows they are unhappy with a parents discision, the parent smites them for their attitude. I've seen parents provoke their kids, only to punish their kid for an attitude (obviously caused from being provoked). I told this adult what they were punishing their kid for human nature, they told me it was not my business and they would deal with their kids the way they want. I may have been out of line, but when you see somebody you know being yelled at because of the way they feel, you tend to get angry.
Point: Should children be punished for their "attitude", or is showing emotion wrong?
My second pet-peeve is "back-talking". Back talking usually emcompasses any form of a child defending themselves verbally. It is the general adult concesses that it does not matter if a child is right or wrong, the adult is always right and a child questioning their authority is disobedient and deserving of punishment.
Point: Does the child's side of the story matter, or are they wrong for questioning their parents judgement?
My third pet peeve is parents punishing kids for doing something they told them to do. For instance, a parent saying "Go to your room!" then saying "Don't walk away from me!" when the child does. Or when a parent says "If you're ever bullied fight back!" and then punishing a child for fighting. Or when a parent says "If they're bothering you, ignore them" and then saying "Pay attention to ____!"
Point: Should a child be punished for misinterperating a parents view, or is it okay if they are not psychic?
There are countless other issues I could go on about. A parent making a child eat when the kid is to sick to eat, or doing other trivial tasks. Parents punishing a kid for getting punished. Parents smacking their kids every once-in-awhile just to show them who's boss (one of the most cowardly acts I can imagine). Parents spending money on their own entertainment rather than the kid's necessities.
My point is- are parents justified in doing this. Does giving a child a home justify treating that child however the adult wants? Do children deserve fairness, or is being fed enough? Is their such a thing as rights before you are 18? Is their such a thing as respect until you're 18? Do adults deserve the respect that they automatically assume that they deserve? Please discuss.
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william
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
LummoxLewis
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posted September 23, 2006 05:31 AM |
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Edited by william at 05:44, 23 Sep 2006.
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Quote:
My point is- are parents justified in doing this. Does giving a child a home justify treating that child however the adult wants? Do children deserve fairness, or is being fed enough? Is their such a thing as rights before you are 18? Is their such a thing as respect until you're 18? Do adults deserve the respect that they automatically assume that they deserve? Please discuss.
Nice thread Lady M.
I particularly liked the views you set here.
Just because an adult is older, does not give them the right to make their children bend to their every wim or something like that 
They cannot have whatever they want, and just because they have kids, doesn't mean that they cannot get off their damn arses (sorry to swear) and do something for themselves, instead of making their childrens childhood something to forget.
I know mine ais quite bad at the moment, although my friends and that make it enjoyable and something I probably wont forget, although if me getting bossed around and all that keeps going, I will soon start and try and forget it.
I get blamed for alot of things by my parents.
If something goes wrong, I get the blame.
My parents usually don't listen to what I have to say, and that is what gets me angry and usually I get extremely fired up and that fight usually would involve violence or something like that.
Being fed is nothing to do with fairness.
But something like this is not fair:
A person getting blamed for something even though they were no where near the scene of the incident.
That is not fair at all.
Children deserve to have equal fairness and if the mother and father have 5 or 10 kids or whatever, each and every one of them deserves to be treated fairly and equally, even if one of them has a disability or something they or no different and deserve as much fairness and equality as everyone else has, what makes them different?
Nothing is the answer.
Their is such a thing as respect before 18.
At school, your friends, family and probably teachers might gain respect in you, but usually you would have to prove to them that you should have respect, but with friends it is different.
Adults should not have more respect than children in my opinion.
It is all about equality, and everyone should be treated as an equal, noone treated poorly or too good, because that is favouring.
Adults should actually listen to a child and what they have to say, instead of mainly ignoring or making them do chores and all that.
I know some of my points might be a little bit bad and people may have negative impact, but they are just my opinions on this matter.
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~Ticking away the moments that
make up a dull day, Fritter and
waste the hours in an off-hand
way~
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted September 23, 2006 03:10 PM |
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great thread
and all i have to say on the topic is this:
respect is earned, not given ...age has little to do with it, if anything at all ...there is a greek saying, often used by adults to prove their authority and divine right to rule over younger people (even other adults, not just kids) "i was where you are, you will be where i am" ...and to a point, this is true, the circle of life tends to be repeated over and over ...but as another saying goes, the devil is in the details ...the world is no longer the world of our parents, the general outlines may be the same, but everything else has changed
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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friendofgunnar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
able to speed up time
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posted September 23, 2006 10:18 PM |
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Wow Meryl, you're exploring past the VW.
(no sarcasm btw)
I think that when you become a mother you will insist on your rights to be a complete dictator in your own household. You will insist on these rights loudly to both the government and your own children. That's just human nature I think.
Also you will probably not want to explain the motivations and logic behind every little action to your kids, which is why I predict you will blanket everything under the catch-all "because you should respect your parents and do what they say." It's just a basic strategy I think to save time and energy.
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted September 24, 2006 08:54 PM |
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Wow they are giving bonus points to just anything… Um did you say that you had children? I remember when you came into my thread and just decided that you could trash everything that I said about children and raising them. This is like talking about politics when you are a republican and attempting to have people take you seriously. Please let’s understand that you are not basing any of this from your experience with your children. You have carelessly stated situations that are not from your experience but situations that you claim you have seen or heard.
Quote:
My biggest pet peeve in all of this is about "attitude". If an adult does something a child feels is unfair, and the child shows any indication of disagreeing with the adult, the adult often gets onto the child for their "attitude". I believe it is the natural order of things for somebody to get upset when they disagree with something. Adults seem to feel this is a harsh form of disobedience.
There is a reason for order and the child listening to their parents even if they don’t agree. I have a boss at work and I have to listen to him or I have no job. I can disagree but do I lay myself on the floor and start kicking my feet to get what I want? No! Why? Because that is not how we conduct ourselves to get a positive response. You can listen to your children and their need to be heard without giving in or showing pleasure in the fact that every time you state something they have to question you. Once you have three children that are doing this ten times a day about everything that you say you will understand that you get to a point where you pick your battles and what you wish to discuss with them as a compromise. “Attitude” has to be dealt with so they understand how to conduct themselves in the real world. They have to be taught they can disagree but do it in a respectful way and to just listen.
Quote:
There are countless other issues I could go on about. A parent making a child eat when the kid is to sick to eat, or doing other trivial tasks. Parents punishing a kid for getting punished. Parents smacking their kids every once-in-awhile just to show them who's boss (one of the most cowardly acts I can imagine). Parents spending money on their own entertainment rather than the kid's necessities.
I know a lot of parents that go around smacking their children just to show them who has the upper hand (NOT). You said something along the lines of provoking them just to punish them for reacting to the provoking nature of the situation. What the **** are talking about, who the hell does that? What kind of childhood did you have? Your mom told you to go to your room and then said; hey don’t walk way from me when I ‘m talking to you? You have seen this happen before?
Back talking, this was a fun one. If I tell my child that they can’t do something and they question me for an hour about it then they will have some form of adult-child relationship reestablished very quickly. Your dinner is done come eat; you say that they should just be allowed to finish what ever “trivial task” they are doing and come to the table when ever they want? Great I can’t wait till you send your children off to live in the real world where they can just run around back-talking authority figures, taking lunch breaks at work when they get around to it, and to top it all off have more children that live in disarray.
But hey great post and really worth that bonus point……
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pandora
Honorable
Legendary Hero
The Chosen One
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posted September 25, 2006 01:05 AM |
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Edited by pandora at 06:11, 29 Sep 2006.
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Quality points are not given based on whether or not I personally agree with a post - this one was given because a member that previously limited herself to spam and VW flaming made an effort to start a discussion above that level.
edit: bonus since undone, LM you're free to IM me about it if you wish.
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"In the end, we will remember not the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends."
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violent_flower
Promising
Supreme Hero
Almost there.
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posted September 25, 2006 03:29 AM |
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Hello Pandora I don’t believe we have ever spoke. My apologies for not understanding the way the threads worked. I thought that people received bonus points for having the understanding of a subject that they so choose to put out there for others to read. Unless of coarse they are trying to understand something they are ignorant of. My process of thinking is just because the words are written well and bring up an interesting topic does not make it fit for such a reward. I don’t really care about the bonus point and was expressing sarcasm in that matter. However I can’t fathom getting rewarded for coming to terms with the fact that spamming is not productive. Having some revelation that maybe I should write something that will get the attention of those dumb*** parents out there. A politician writes about what they know and a parent writes from experience, as they should. Asking questions such as; why do some parents treat their children this way or when I correct a parent in public and challenge their parenting skills why do they take offence (Um, now here is a straight up common since reaction from a parent that has raised children and does not appreciate commentary on a matter that one plays no role in) this is productive and shall be rewarded. I do thank you for the time you have taken to set me straight and will keep this in mind before making statements about bonus points in the future.
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Learn how to duck and weave because I will throw truth at you all day!
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LadyGuenivere
Known Hero
Spam Deep-Fryer Mod-Repellant
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posted September 26, 2006 11:07 PM |
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I agree with LadyM on all accounts. I had never really thought about that before, but she made several very good points. I never knew she was that deep. Pan, I'm interested in what your objections are. Care to share?
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What happened to Lady Guiniwhere anyway?
- FoG
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TitaniumAlloy
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Professional
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posted September 27, 2006 01:46 PM |
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back talking is a hobby of mine.
and don't forget, denial can get you out anything. unless you get caught. so don't get caught 
adults usually have a good reason for rules, but often they don't. and when they do, you can override their judgement 
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John says to live above hell.
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Vadskye91
Promising
Supreme Hero
Back again
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posted September 27, 2006 02:03 PM |
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It all depends on the parent. With some, a good negotiation can work wonders, but others are very boring (I mean, consistent) with their rules.
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Knowledge is power...
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bjorn190
Responsible
Supreme Hero
Jebus maker
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posted September 28, 2006 04:09 AM |
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Basically, in practice, it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong - what matters is the distribution of power between parent and child.
Imagine for a moment that the monetary roles were reversed between the two: That the parent was dependant on the child for money. Then the parents would have to listen more to the child.
But because the children are dependant on the parents, they have to put up with whatever situation is there. Luckily most families are great, and the children are guided and helped by caring parents.
However, I think the world might become a better place if every child everywhere could chose to be emancipated from their parents and retain all financial support that they had previously, thus be as well off as before.
This would have no impact on working families, and provide a safe haven for children from non-working families. But I doubt it will happen anytime soon. Liberty is a fine idea but sadly, most people are not free.
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Korejora
Promising
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posted September 30, 2006 11:59 PM |
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I don't really like the idea that respect is earned, not given. That may be true in the army, where you have to do everything they say because they simply can't assume you are commander material, or in any other relatively meritocratic system, but let's take a look at society for a moment.
When you first meet new people, you're polite to them. (I hope.) You don't yell at them; you don't insult them; you don't spit in their faces. When you get a new job, you don't assume that all of your co-workers are incompetent and start by telling them off when they offer suggestions, opinions, or even criticism. You respect them and their ideas and opinions. When you go to a school, a university, or a college, you respect the teachers and professors there; you don't demand that they prove to you that their class is worth their time. You give them the respect. They may lose your respect if they prove to be incompetent or distasteful people, but they started out with it in the first place.
This is sort of connected to the adult-youth relationship. Sure, adults deserve respect, but children do, too. Until the child proves to be incapable or universally unsuccessful in their decision-making (moral or otherwise) the adult can't justifiably tell the child that their opinion or judgement is any less sound.
Quote:
Point: Should children be punished for their "attitude", or is showing emotion wrong?
Showing emotion is not wrong, but whether the child's "attitude" is inappropriate is pretty dependent on the situation. Sometimes that attitude is pretty ridiculous. Consider this:
"Jacklyn, you should give Susie a turn on the wooden horsie."
"No, it's still my turn."
Let's just assume for a minute that kids have an infinite attention span. What if Jacklyn has been rocking on the horsie for an hour now, while Susie waited for her to finish with it? Is that fair to Susie? On the other hand, what if Susie had just played for an hour, and Jacklyn's only been on for a few minutes? Obviously, Jacklyn's opinion is more reasonable, now. That's not usually how it works, though, unless the adult are extremely favouritist. From a moral standpoint, children are chiefly only concerned with themselves, with a few exceptions arising from very skilled parenting or ideal growth environments.
Now, getting back to whether the decision is good for the child... Who's ever seen a two-year-old with sound judgement? They simply don't have the experience to make informed decisions. Thus, their parents don't necessarily have a reason to accept or consider their opinions. This carries up into three-year-olds, four-year-olds, five-year olds... When is the parent supposed to decide that they should start asking the kid's opinion? Let's assume for a moment that youths have judgement perfectly equilavent to the average citizen when they reach age 15. Fifteen years into life in our society, a kid has probably backtalked his parents all the way to the moon twice. At five years old, it may have just been that lack of self-awareness and concept of equality (or fairness, anyway) that prevented the kid from realizing that yeah, that really IS fair, and not just because my dad said so. Keeping in mind that parents aren't super-human: even if the kid's judgement is good now, the dad has been dealing with fifteen years of the child's relatively bad judgement, and does not see anything different about the most recent disagreement. Not realizing that what the kid is upset about is backed by some pretty reasonable grounds, he continues to assume his judgement is better, supported by the fact that he does actually have more experience. It's a difficult problem and it occurs on some level even in families with very healthy relationships. It takes patience from the kid and understanding from the parent to overcome it, something they each arguably tend to lack in.
However, that doesn't justify just any adult assuming that they know better. One of my biggest pet peeves is that sometimes when I disagree with adults, they say something to the effect of you'll think differently when you're older, as if my opinion is only different (not to mention wrong) because I lack some fundamental empirical knowledge. Being that I'm not five years old, I find it a little offensive that they not even simply call into question but indisputably doubt that my opinion is reasonable. They don't give me respect, and if they are offering me a chance to earn it, then I must be missing something.
@bjorn190--
Quote:
However, I think the world might become a better place if every child everywhere could chose to be emancipated from their parents and retain all financial support that they had previously, thus be as well off as before.
I don't quite get what you're proposing here. Who would give the child the financial support? Surely not the parents? And what would happen to the child; would (s)he be raised by someone else? Also, when would the child be given the power to make this decision? At five, they probably couldn't understand it, and at ten, they might take it even if their parents aren't abusive or even unfair. As said previously, a child's judgement is not always very sound.
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That's the best part. 
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Lith-Maethor
Honorable
Legendary Hero
paid in Coin and Cleavage
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posted October 01, 2006 12:46 AM |
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ahem...
Quote:
I don't really like the idea that respect is earned, not given. That may be true in the army, where you have to do everything they say because they simply can't assume you are commander material, or in any other relatively meritocratic system, but let's take a look at society for a moment.
and here i thought the army was the best example of respect given and not earned... i mean sure, there is a very good chance that your superior has done something to earn some respect in order to get his rank, but more often than not, you have no idea of it, you are just told "this is your superior officer, if he says jump, you ask how high"
Quote:
When you first meet new people, you're polite to them. (I hope.) You don't yell at them; you don't insult them; you don't spit in their faces. When you get a new job, you don't assume that all of your co-workers are incompetent and start by telling them off when they offer suggestions, opinions, or even criticism. You respect them and their ideas and opinions. When you go to a school, a university, or a college, you respect the teachers and professors there; you don't demand that they prove to you that their class is worth their time. You give them the respect. They may lose your respect if they prove to be incompetent or distasteful people, but they started out with it in the first place.
and here is the fault in your logic, we are talking about respect as a figure of authority, not as a human being, without the basic respect for others, it is indeed impossible to function in our society, if you are being a jackass to people, you will end up a hermit, probably with a few lawsuits on your back ...when i go to a new job, i don't assume my co-workers are useless, but i have no reason to take their word about something as godspell, they will have to prove to me they know what they are talking about ...same thing with teachers and professors, unless they prove they have earned their place, i treat them no differently than any other person... and you know what? ...so far this helped me weed out the incompetent ones, since i keep challenging people of "authority" till they either prove me wrong, or i prove them useless... when they prove me wrong, they have earned my respect as authority figures
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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kOOkastar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted October 01, 2006 01:46 AM |
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unless they prove they have earned their place, i treat them no differently than any other person...
You are right everyone should be treated with respect, and hopefully this signifies that your basic, standard level of respect for people is very high...
although...
Quote:
since i keep challenging people of "authority" till they either prove me wrong, or i prove them useless... when they prove me wrong, they have earned my respect as authority figures
this may suggest otherwise.
What a really stressful way to live You are trying to prove everyone more useless? Not everyone is going to know everything about everything, however there needs to be some kind of heirachy for structures like this to function.
I get so frustrated working in a place that is too diplomatic, where committees have to be formed to decide the best structure of the committee to formulate a proposal to present to the staff, to be debated and voted upon and eventually passed over because you can never please everyone.
There are exceptions, but people should be authority figures because they have already proven their worth to the people that were there before you started. {OK, there a ALOT of exceptions.} Regardless, there does need to be a basic level of respect for the 'position' itself - be it parents, bosses, teachers, whatever.
UNTIL they give you a reason to lose this respect {as K has already stated}, and this reason should be based on multiple situations and events over time, not just one incident. We all have bad days.
Like fog said - being questioned on every little decision you make is time consuming, frustrating, and sometimes it is hard to put years of experience and understanding into a simple explanation. Also, some things people {especially teenagers/children} need to learn through experience, and there is no way to reason. They think the world has changed and they are the only ones going through it. They need to find out the hard way most of the time *sigh*. I did.
My mum had this inate ability to judge people's character and I didn't respect this at all, and in the end she was always right. She knew because she had more experience, but there was no way I would have believed her at the time. I digress.
There is nothing wrong with questioning authority. You should. But you should listen and think first. There is often more to the issue then we can sometimes see.
I agree we should all have a very high level of respect for everyone. This is variable after experiences with those people.
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uhuh
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Lith-Maethor
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posted October 01, 2006 01:58 AM |
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i stand corrected...
bad phrasing on my part... i certainly don't spend my time challenging authority figures, i have better things to do with my time... i do however question their decisions when i disagree with them and common sense dictates another decision would be wiser ...what i don't do, is take their word as absolute truth
...and sure, from people in some position, i expect at least the necessary knowledge and experience that such a person should have ...expecting and accepting however, are two very different things ...when i am talking to a chemistry teacher, it is natural to expect he known more on the subject than i ever will, if he tells me something that i find questionable however, i will make sure to doublecheck and if it proves wrong, i have no problem pointing it out
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You are suffering from delusions of adequacy.
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