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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Modders Workshop > Thread: Growth system: Why?
Thread: Growth system: Why?
TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted December 12, 2006 04:32 PM

Growth system: Why?

Ok, you may know that I am the growth-freak... sorry for this beginning of a post

Firstly I must confess I have never played any other Heroes in the series. However, I probably know that the whole series has this "growth" system (cheated by googling a bit ).

I have some (very) complaints about this system. First and foremost it sucks! It "limits" your strategies... If I play with a friend of mine, both having the same faction, I already know what his army will be (counting the weeks, etc).. If he splits his army, he'll be dead by my ALL-SUPREME hero with all the army

Back to the point. The fact is really disturbing me -- it limits me VEEERY much.. When i say "strategy" I'll be talking about the "army-generation" strategy (i.e what kind of army you make). In most games, you are allowed (i.e free, not limited) to make ALL your army composed of, shall we say, Elven Archers (hunters, rangers, whatever the name).. this may NOT be a good strategy, of course, but it gives an impression of freedom.

The problem with growth is that the gold income from ONLY the Capitol (i.e inside your safe and precious town) is such that gold is not really a major problem, except tier 7s.. I find this growth system really annoying because it limits my strategies. So what if I want to make 50 Master Hunters instead of wasting it on Treants, eh? Why should we (me and the opponent) be limited to creating the almost same army? I have good army-building strategies in mind for all other games (to tell the truth, ALL the strategy games out there, turn or real time, are simply too simple for me).. and I usually select a delicate army myself, not be restricted to always buy 2 damn Green Dragons, and no sprites (24 Sprites are USELESS compared to 2 tier 7s, because the growth ain't fair... tier 1s should be 5 times the growth as it is now so the "money" spent on those creatures to be the same as for tier 7s ).

I see two major problems with growth:

1) Like said before, it limits your army-building strategies completely!!! You are limited to (even memorized them, hey it's not that hard): 24 Sprites, 18 War Dancers, 14 Hunters, 8 Druids, 6 Unicorns, 5 Treants, 2 Dragons... and the enemy is, surprisingly, building the same army?!?!?!?! it would be MUCH MORE versatile if this game had "army-building strategies" too, instead of relying only on "combat" strategies...

2) What if I lose all my Master Hunters on a battle??  I WANT TO MAKE THEM BACK, for strategy's sake!! I don't want to spend money on other Green Dragons when I already have 10 of them... I want to remake my 170 Master Hunters!!! it is so very annoying in this game that I almost always avoid putting the Blood Furies in a battle, with fear that they will all be killed and replacing them by growth, not by money which i have plenty, is a pain (10 weeks, etc)... And I don't mean to "remake" my Master Hunters without cost... no, you see Gold is not a problem for my strategies... Growth is. that's why it's also such a big "tragedy" if you loose armies on neutrals -- the growth speaks for itself


So, why is this stupid growth-system implemented in such a great game.. it limits your adventuring strategies and army building.

In case some of you might be wondering about the "boost growth" buildings.. come on, many strategy games have the "upgrading creatures".. The Unearthed Graves, for example, instead of adding +6 Skels per week, it could increase their attack by +1 or somesuch (without any cost)... not to be confused with upgrading creatures via the Upgrade button (you know Skels->Skels Archers).. no but rather "upgrading" their stats.

So what do you think. Sorry for sounding like a dumbass, but I would like to know if anyone else thinks like me. And the possibilities with *infinite* growth like other games allow would be much more "freely" and strategically planned.


a lot of other factors may arrive from modifying the growth directly.. that's not my point (i think it's implemented in the .exe).. the thing I said is just a suggestion. I would like to know what you think about it.

And if you like it, tell me why you wouldn't like the "infinite" growth method more. Please, I'm waiting for your opinions.

Thank you for your time reading this post, and possibly answering to it

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yasmiel
yasmiel


Supreme Hero
Former Chessmaster
posted December 12, 2006 05:24 PM
Edited by yasmiel at 17:26, 12 Dec 2006.

I like the system the way it is now..

I play mostly on hard settings (vs comp or vs other ppl), and i am RARELY able to buy all the creatures... i never had the problem of having too much money )

Keep in mind that you can have only ONE capitol... and building it up takes gold as well.. imho, only case when i will be swimming in gold would be if i let the game last very long,.. say more than 4 months... but that rarely happens,... very rarely in expert game (from my experience of course)

As for that second strategy problem... try to alter your strategy so it doesnt include LOSING all the hunters, or if you cant achieve it, try a different one )
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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted December 12, 2006 05:56 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 17:58, 12 Dec 2006.

More than 1 town? I thought it was standard to have 1 town (thus 1 Capitol at best).

But if the enemy attacks the Master Hunters with ranged attacks then I can't really help but not put them in the battle.. Like I said, 80% of battles I don't put Blood Furies on the battle (first target for everyone, and they die quick, because of their small growth). And it simply limits somewhat my choices.. what if i want to create my "own" army, I could say it beats everything (sure that's just me).. but no, I can't because it limits to how Nival wants to have me growth.. Just because they play with 24 Sprites, 18 War Dancers, etc etc per week doesn't mean I should adopt the same strategy.. or at least that's how i think -- it would surprise the enemy much more than knowing what his army will be.

And about the 4 months -- Gosh, I thought 4 months is a quick game?!?! How quick do you guys attack and destroy?? I prefer to defend and create a swarm of an army and then attack -- you know, other games restricted me here with the so-called "army-limit", but this one does not altough it limits myself as to what creatures I have to purchase (growth).

Yeah I like the Hard difficulty and I consider it some kind of "Default starting resources", honestly.

But Capitol in week 3 day 1 is a must-have. Resource Silo in week 2 doesn't sound bad too. Add a couple of Gold Mines + treasures + trading useless resources and you'll have quite a bit of money, even if at the early game (week1&2) you have to adopt and be somewhat "calm" like in the "Week of Deadly Calm" .

The only town that "uses" all the gold I believe is the Haven, because of it's (overpowered) training skill.

Thanks for your feedback anyway.
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 12, 2006 08:40 PM

Okay first of all the growth rate for the game is just a must. Only buying strong creatures and forgetting the "bad" and "weak" creatures aside is so bad. I'm happy to see that lv7 creatures aren't more powerfull what they are right now.

And the thing if you lose army in a battle you don't get the units back that is reasonable and realistic imo. Then the difference of your and enemy army size also changes. In most cases casulties are bad for your total strenght for upcoming end game fight but sometimes the rewards are worth it.

I found it interesting when it comes down to these kinda situtations when you really hafto think what you should do. I remember Sylvan campaing second mission where i found gold mine guardet by Succubies (also Misstress where on the battle) it was just the second day of that map and i just tough i need that gold mine somehow. I knew that it would be useless to use Druids or Hunters cause it would take huge casulties and we don't want that! So i bought Treants and Unicors for first population and attacked only whit Treants and Unicorns those Succubies at the begin of the new weak. There was many Succubies and i lost only 1  Unicorn in that fight! Whit help of Treants and Hero's spells i won the battle but if i would had those range creatures on my army i would not have taken so easy win.

Blood Furies are basically range creatures (if we forget town fights). And all range creatures should watch out if enemy is one of these: Also a range creature, Spell caster or Enemy Hero. Whit good speels/range creatures and some 6-7lv creatures you can kill wandering mosters on advanture map pretty easily whit no losses at all whit every town there are (basically everything ofcurse).

You can have more money what you need if you have several gold mines and maybe some towns but waiting might not be good allways when the enemy could have more towns what you do and that means more power and those millions dosen't look so great anymore.

What else? Oh yeah if you get bored when you play whit your friend i would suggest you two would take diffrent towns that would spice things up a little! I never take same town as others unless other insist on it but that would be more humiliation to them: "Now you can't say you had worse town what i had"

Don't worry about the growth just enjoy the awesome game

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted December 12, 2006 09:10 PM

The fact that I need to buy "only" the strong tier 7s is EXACTLY what troubles me. In the late game, only dragons (I'm talking about Sylvan right now) do most of the job. Because you don't lose them easily, and their weekly growth is astonishing compared with, let's say, Sprites.

How? 24 Sprites cost 1320 gold -- not EVEN half as a dragon, and you have 2 dragons/week. Tier 7 costs 9400 -- so you should have 171 Sprites/week to be "equal". As you say, buying tier 7 creatures and making them the only useful creatures is annoying, and I completely agree. However as you see, lower tiers have such a weak growth that is what's troubling me! That's why I want *infinite* growth, I want to recruit Sprites, and A WHOLE LOT, not dragons... this game restricts me so much... damn

and with the more town approach, I rarely play maps with more towns than players available (I play with my friend on Peninsula map, without the Tear of Asha, just "defeat all" style, and I miss my Hunters and Sprites which were killed in a great battle with him .. I only have around 50 right now, useless compared to those damn dragons)
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Homer171
Homer171


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted December 12, 2006 09:57 PM

Well maybe some low level creatures might come useless in mid game againts wandering monsters and when you have dragons you really don't need those Sprites in your army. If you really don't wanna lose any of them then don't use them.

When i play whit Necropolis i never buy Zombie until the end game fights cause i know they would not do me any good in the battle. Also whit Necropolis it's nice to own Raise Dead spell so i don't hafto worry about casulties and eternal servitude is also nice.

Big battles againts hero you might need to use all of your creatures but mainly the lower rank creatures comes weaker among time exept the Skellies and Familiars!

The most irritating battles are town battles! Those towers allways shoots your range creatures and you loose lot of them. Many people who don't give damn about the town but would like to make you pay for that town buys seven level 1 creatures and splits them. Often that is kinda irritating when you need two rounds to kill those 7 creatures and meanwhile those towers kills your troops. One time i had perfect counter for that and i only take level 7 creatures whit me to the battles. When battle started all towers hits the creature but none died. Then i just defendet whit the creature and in heros turn i casted Curse of the Netherlands and the battle was over.

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