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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: The New Haven
Thread: The New Haven
Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 16, 2006 01:35 PM

The New Haven

How do you think, can haven be succesful without abusing training and dougal? I mean, without using training at all. I'd like to play this faction cause simply it looks great,  the units look great and the town theme is wonderful, but without the imba marksmen sh*t and without mr.imbalance aka dougal. What would you suggest?

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted December 16, 2006 02:24 PM

It can "still" have an edge, just recruit Angels as you would Devils -- that's because without training you can get 'em pretty fast, and they're not so useless. Peasants also help with gold, but you have to be patient to be worth the while spent on them, which I don't think it's your main strength (no offense of course).

I have played Haven briefly though so I can't offer the best advice, however I have also never used training, so you're getting this from a noob who hasn't used training, yay

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RectusDominus
RectusDominus


Adventuring Hero
posted December 16, 2006 02:33 PM

yeh, training and dougal and stuff is really cheap, though even without this, I think haven can still be good, the combination of mass light magic spells and an offensively orientated army can cause real damage, ofcourse money is a problem...

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Dungeonian
Dungeonian


Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
posted December 17, 2006 05:30 AM

  I think all factions have their strong features and weaknesses . Haven has the most difficult start because lvl 1-4 nonupgraded troops are very sink and do low damage . Every lvl 2-4 building and upgrade cost 10 ore + Fort , Citadel and Castle also require some ore . Training isn't available on high level difficulties on  first few weeks . All this adding knight's lack of magic creats some troubles even for skillful player on veteran and , especialy , on heroic dif.
  I can agree that Dougal could be very powerful on rich maps after 5-6 weeks , but his opponent shouldn't sleep giving him nesessery time to prepair his marksmen horde . However , I don't like peasant - archer upgrade , the reasons I'd posted here sometimes already . So I vote for exchange this ability , which could be compensated by improwering counterstrike . The other training upgrades aren't a problem , am I right ?

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 17, 2006 12:31 PM

absolutely

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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted December 17, 2006 11:53 PM

in my early haven days, when i didn't balance economy very well, i didn't use training(lack of money). every unit had its uses and they were quite strong in the hands of the knight... even the conscripts did great things ! with a haven army(without trained marksmen) , light magic and the usual knight build-up you can really kick any other type of knightish army . the problem is the spellcasters , which are very hard to defeat without the help of the big marksmen stacks which can absorb quite a punch, and also deal quite a punch !

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SS
SS


Known Hero
Strike first, Strike Hard
posted December 18, 2006 02:04 AM

I think for haven if you have money it is the most strongest Faction in the game. you can train Peasents in to Marksmen awhich is a shooter and therefore have a great advantage over other players from other factions.

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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted December 18, 2006 11:52 AM

No, there is one other option, the most powerful hero in the game and that is Laszlo with Squire training. As I showed before in some post, and has been proved in practice, this is the most powerful build in the game, and not Dougal. True, it is harder to do and very hard on Heroic, but people simply avoid to play him because they presume that Dougal+Marksmen combination owns the game. It does, in most of the cases, and can and WILL beat Laszlo in cca 1/3 times as well, but that still means it will lose 2/3 times.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 18, 2006 01:16 PM

How come? Squires don't have piercing shot. ;p

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Dungeonian
Dungeonian


Adventuring Hero
Supreme matriarch
posted December 18, 2006 03:01 PM

Quote:
No, there is one other option, the most powerful hero in the game and that is Laszlo with Squire training. As I showed before in some post, and has been proved in practice, this is the most powerful build in the game, and not Dougal. True, it is harder to do and very hard on Heroic, but people simply avoid to play him because they presume that Dougal+Marksmen combination owns the game. It does, in most of the cases, and can and WILL beat Laszlo in cca 1/3 times as well, but that still means it will lose 2/3 times.


 Are you joke ? How squires could desice a game result with their speed , initiative and damage ? They only could counterstrike to shooter-based strategy and are helpless vs. other ones , especialy magic-based .

 True , I'm playing mostly on Heroic , hence training isn't available for a long time . But there is another strategy , based on high level units and diplomacy , especialy calculating add.20% chance for neitrals to join our hero when they're this hero spec. creatures and add.10% chance if these creatures are already exist . I prefer use a highest initiative creature specialist , in Haven case it's Irina . It's obvious that as often your most powerful stack acts as strong your army is .

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rainalcar
rainalcar


Promising
Famous Hero
Heroji su zakon
posted December 18, 2006 04:10 PM

No, I am not joking. I have played numerous games (none of the sort recently because it became bothersome and because Nival finaly announced Training changes) Laszlo vs. Dougal, while most people, judging by my expirience, have never faced a good player who trains Squires. Most people leading Dougal make two Marksmen stacks, two smaller Paladin stacks (lack of Gold) and a bunch of damage soakers (sometimes there is a stack of Archers to deal with Phantoms). Practicaly never does this army include Griffins which are too expensive, and there and then it includes Inquisitors. The hero almoust always has Light Magic (there is always a chance not to get it or not to get Cleansing but there he relies on Lay Hands). As for the Squire leader he is even more resource (gold) demanding so he pretty much has to make choices: the largest one being Cavaliers (Paladins are inaccessible) or Imperials or none (thus enlarging the Squire stack). He also has Light Magic, Evasion, speed contributions etc. The biggest assets he can get are Deflect Missile (which can be cleansed but it doesn't have to be) and/or Teleport. Deflect Missile that opposes Cleansing is a game killer where the Squires are virtualy invulnerable;  Teleport on the other hand allows a pass of the field in the go. If Dougal uses two Marksmen he cannot possibly defend them both with his soakers against Imperials/Cavaliers, if they are in play. The other option for Dougal is to have one Marksmen stack and use everything to protect it. With these kinds of numbers the potential Imperials/Cavaliers numbers of Laszlo are likely insufficient to breake the defense BUT - Squires WILL brake them and he WON'T get into the 3 tile range (which is very narrow anyway and easy to avoid). Just try to test some formula and you will see that I am not blabbing, I am speaking od expirience, but it seems most people here are simply taking the easier route. In the end, yes, Laszlo isn't undefeatable in this duel, far from it, you many not get Teleport and/or Deflect, no Aura of Speed etc., opponent my get some crucial luck, or teleport his Marksmen all around, or take Dark while Laszlo doesn't get Cleansing, but it isn't a majority of cases.

Here is just a calculation of 600 Marksmen (which is hell of a lot) hitting Squires out of range: assumptions are that the Marksmen have Battle Frenzy and Archery, Squires have Evasion and +10 Defense total (which is realistic):
600*(3+9)/2*20/30*1,2*0,8*0,25=576 and this we divide with 28HP of the Squires and get 20.57 per shot. (I am doing the math in my head so sorry if I calculated something wrong)
20 Squires isn't too much and is managable: when Dougal has 600 Marksmen from my expirience Laszlo has >300 Squires, easily 350). Even if Dougal makes 3 hits (realistic) one the Squires before they come to him, of which two are full range but no defense negation strikes he will still have to face cca 250 Squires, possibly more. In this situation, if they do not have Teleport or can work out something miracolous with Divine Guidance (to which Laszlo has to be very wary), they don't stand a chance.

But don't trust me and don't trust the math. Try to play it - you will be surprised. It takes some expirience and it's certainly more difficult, challenging and risky than Dougal build, but much more enjoyable from my expirience.

Diplomacy tactic is a nice one and could perhaps work with Haven which has a great chance for Leadership + Diplomacy and a good chance for Luck, but it always really depends. Based on the new formula chances are rather slim, but it is nice that someone is into it. I suggest here that Nival reenforces the Visions spell: personaly, I would never grant it the form it had in H3 when it was overpowerful, but it could be made to show some limited info (mood perhaps?) of the targeted creature AND it would work once per cast AND it would be costly (more than in H3 anyway ). However, imo it should be a level 1-3 spell to make it worthwile tactic. As it stands now, Diplomacy is hardly gamebreaking with no knowledge beforehand.

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted December 18, 2006 09:59 PM

OK joking aside, the Haven has real limitation without training... that's why they have training.  They do have some advantages though.  They are obviously all about the troops, so you need to get dwellings as fast as possible, without neglecting income buildings because troops without $ = death.  Light/Dark magic is great because it doesn't need spellpower, which the Haven doesn't have.  They are well suited at taking Castles because the Squires can defend the shooters and everyone else is either a shooter or flyer (expect Paladins and conscripts).  You need logistics and will have to out manuever your opponent.  It is very hard to counter a high spell power warlock attacking and retreating.  Mana regenerates much better than dead troops.  You definately need either luck or leadership to maximize damage.  The increasing haste girl might be nice.  You'll have to engage the enemy quickly in battles to reduce the amount of spells he can cast.  If you don't get the advantage by doing better on the map (which is tough to do with a generally slower start) you are going to have a lot trouble.  Stick with it though, they're a tough group to use (if you're not training, and even if you do train if you're playing someone who knows how to counter) but they have noble characters with great balance (2 shooter, 2 flyer, 3 melee) if you can figure them out.

Oh, last thought tip... upgrade giffins early and clear neutral shooters by battle diving with no one else on the battle field.  The shooters just stand there because there is noone on the field when the battle griffins are in the battle diving.  It will help reduce troop loss and creep a little faster.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 18, 2006 11:05 PM

Quote:
 Are you joke ? How squires could desice a game result with their speed , initiative and damage ? They only could counterstrike to shooter-based strategy and are helpless vs. other ones , especialy magic-based .

 True , I'm playing mostly on Heroic , hence training isn't available for a long time . But there is another strategy , based on high level units and diplomacy , especialy calculating add.20% chance for neitrals to join our hero when they're this hero spec. creatures and add.10% chance if these creatures are already exist . I prefer use a highest initiative creature specialist , in Haven case it's Irina . It's obvious that as often your most powerful stack acts as strong your army is .


Well you care too much for things like initiative, while it's more important for the stack to be big and durable. The damage comes out naturally from numbers, specialist bonus and knight's att/def. Fragile high-init unit will be targeted like furies and killed within first 1-2 turns by massive focus fire. Numerous squires will easily survive,plus they are rarely a prime target even against human opponents who whink similiar to you and underestimate slow/low init units. Marksmen show that initiative means less than nothing ; there are ways to make up for it (teleport, aura of swiftness, divine guidance etc.) While there is no way to make up for low survivalability. There is no point in relying on a stack that gets swept off the field after two turns, whatever its initiative and speed is.

Besides, you can't make any use of training with griffins, so their numbers won't be higher, making the specialist hero less effective. As for diplomacy, I find it better to specialize in low-level mosters, since they appear much more frequently on the map (squires appear very often, while griffins and imperials are usually mine/artifact guards and nothing more) This way, you will easily get more of them. ;p

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted December 19, 2006 12:57 AM

Well this post was about how to make the Haven good without training.  But since you are talking about training, let's not get rediculous.  If you train to get lots of squires, you are sacrificing getting many of any other creature group.  If there is a huge stack of squires and not much else in the army, they will get target and torn apart.  It will take them two rounds before they can engage anyone.  If you teleport them, then that is one less benifitial spell that you can cast on them.  They are a support troop who are great at guarding shooters, and meeting melee gighters the second half of combat.  They do not have the damage, or abilities to take on an entire army by themselves.    With that said, can we get back on topic of Haven strategies besides training.
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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted December 19, 2006 01:39 AM

well, yes, that was just a response to what Dungeonian wrote.

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted December 20, 2006 02:54 AM

Check out the post on taking creeping to the next level.  There's more Haven tips in there.
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