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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: how can you estimate the combat result when creeping?
Thread: how can you estimate the combat result when creeping?
supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 02, 2007 07:08 PM

how can you estimate the combat result when creeping?

HI all

I have some question? When you are creeping? How can you know that your strength is enough to attach these creatures without casualty?

Thank.
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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted February 02, 2007 08:06 PM

Experience and common sense! For instance you can't go after tier 3/4 neutrals with tier 1+2 normally though there are cases where it's possible. Examples are 10 blood furies defeating a horde of squires and academy's starting army with MMR where its the hero that takes care of the battle.
It depends for each faction but the starting units if used correctly and are upgraded can take care of more powerful ones and the hero's right abilities will see it through. Try not to face powerful stacks during the first two weeks until you lvl-up a bit and have an adequate army.
As a sidenote it's not easy to guess how battles with ranged units of high initiative will go as you may get to play first or not. Battles against melee units are more easy to predict, just calculate in how many turns they'll reach you and how much you'll have weakened them by then.
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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 02, 2007 08:10 PM
Edited by Shauku83 at 20:11, 02 Feb 2007.

That comes only through experience. You begin to come more and more familiar with the creatures and you start to understand the power of your army, their damage and durability combined with the Hero.

Some losses cannot be avoided. Nearly always something will end that "no-losses" creeping, as there are opponents that may have morale, the position of the atb is favourable to them etc. You shouldn't be too hard on yourself about those, because they do happen.

But the more you play, the more you will be able to predict the outcome of the battle beforehand.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 02, 2007 08:27 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 20:28, 02 Feb 2007.

Quote:
That comes only through experience. You begin to come more and more familiar with the creatures and you start to understand the power of your army, their damage and durability combined with the Hero.
And some random stuff, like high damage range (marksmen, etc..).. nothing to do here than to pray...

Quote:
as there are opponents that may have morale
From my experience, neutrals have good morale (only 1 at most) more than my creatures with 3 morale

Quote:
the position of the atb is favourable to them
In 80% of the cases, yeah neutrals always act first..


I'm tired of the random ATB bar thing, especially when neutrals have lower initiative and act before my hero (like Archers or marksmen for example).

solution: agree with your opponent/friends (if allies) to save before neutrals, try best combinations of splitted stacks so they won't have morale/favourable atb, and load best combination, and play

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Shauku83
Shauku83


Promising
Famous Hero
posted February 02, 2007 08:51 PM

Quote:


Quote:
as there are opponents that may have morale
From my experience, neutrals have good morale (only 1 at most) more than my creatures with 3 morale


Lol. There are thousands of battles where netrals don't get any good morale. But when they get good morale 2 times in a battle, it feels like it happens all the time. It is a psychological thing...

Quote:
Quote:
the position of the atb is favourable to them
In 80% of the cases, yeah neutrals always act first..


It is not any more favourable to them that it is to you... But remembr, if there are 3 stacks of initiative 10 creatures and you have 1, it is MORE likely that at least 1 of the enemy stacks acts before your creature. Actually they have 75% change for it (pretty close to your 80% guess )
Quote:


I'm tired of the random ATB bar thing, especially when neutrals have lower initiative and act before my hero (like Archers or marksmen for example).



This is something I agree on. I don't mind creatures with the same initiative having randomness on them, but with a slower crature it is annoying. I think the bonus a creature can get is too big (25% IIRC) which allows even differnce of 2 initiative points.. That is really rare though, but that makes it even more annoying when it happens.

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 02, 2007 09:03 PM

Hi all

Thank you for your answer. I know that there is some randomness in the combat and it is hard to predict. How about is there any way to estimate minimum/maximum loss from the creeping battle? I think it is worth discussing because creeping is very important for the game. No matter what strategy you use for playing game, if you can gain more resources and experiments with less casualties than your opponent, you win.


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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted February 02, 2007 09:06 PM

Yeah well it's hard to predict because each neutral has different tactics or counter tactics. The basic idea is to attack only tier 1s at 1st week, then go for tier 2s and 3s, then 4s (week 3)...

the problem is that with certain creatures (fast ones actually) you can feast on any slow neutral easily, like some cheap 1 sprite vs 70 zombie battle... it annoys me and I would definetely like to see it removed somehow from the game (I mean, the "abuse" of neutrals).

Oh yeah, and fear the neutral spellcasters like Druids, Mages and Pit Lords

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted February 03, 2007 01:13 AM

Test it. Try, reload if you get owned and make a note.

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wangchenwei
wangchenwei

Tavern Dweller
posted February 04, 2007 02:31 PM

If u have ranged units, and the enemy are rather slow melee units (e.g. archers vs. zombies/squires/golems) u could kill them all before they reach u, or by the time they come close ur supporting melee units can kill them without retaliation.  


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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 06, 2007 11:37 AM
Edited by ZombieLord at 11:39, 06 Feb 2007.

Quote:
If u have ranged units, and the enemy are rather slow melee units (e.g. archers vs. zombies/squires/golems) u could kill them all before they reach u, or by the time they come close ur supporting melee units can kill them without retaliation.  



Believe me, Haven has serious problems with Zombies in the first week with only Archers and Peasants (even if you have Dougal). Of course, if you don't want ANY losses at all (not even 1 peasant)

EDIT: Against Squires? Are you kidding? You'll deal only 25% of the damage from far range with your archers, probably not even killing ONE of them (they have 26HP and A LOT of defense).

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted February 06, 2007 02:54 PM

Yeah, creeping isn't really about no losses, it's about minimum losses for maximum gain.  Tricks like putting stacks of 1 peasant around the marksman so when you are attacked you only lose 1 peasant while the marksman precise shot finishes off the neutral.  Or leaving the entire army out except imp. griffins and battle dive against shooters.  I will usually leave part of my army off the battle field to avoid unnecessary losses.  I also plan my fights.  I'm willing to take more losses to get important mines or open an area, while I'm more willing to wait on battles for less important mines/ items if it looks like I'll take significant losses.  It's helpful to think 1) how important is this battle? and 2) what is my strategy against this neutral?  And in some cases you're just going to need a stonger army.  The above mentioned strategies don't work well against War dancers and Cerebuses because they are fast and attack multiple places.  Thay can wipe out your peasants and get inside on you marksman.  Once that happens you've lost.  It's all about planning and knowing what the neutral is capable of.

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted February 06, 2007 04:52 PM

I can see it for zombies and golems (not steel in decent numbers) and the like but squires? I don't care if you are the HOMM god or something: If you're at the point where you only have peasants and archers, squires will rape you, precise shot or not.

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 06, 2007 08:06 PM

HI all

I found some good article about creeping from ZombieLord.

Quote:

2.Creeping

Dungeon and Sylvan are the best factions at creeping WITHOUT RESSURECTION (no Tent or Raise Dead). In Dungeon, both the creatures and the hero are deadly for creeps.
With Tactics or Windstrider Boots, the Blood Furies can reach the neutral ranged units in the first turn if you place them at the fourth tile from the left, regardless of the number of the stacks. Keep this placement in mind. When I discuss about Tactics or those Boots later, you'll have to know it's about Furies.

WARNING: I think everyone knows that sometimes there are extra low level creeps where there should be high level creeps. For example, if there are Gremlins where it should be a level 2 creep, you do realize that you'll have much more problems fighting them than what I say below, don't you? The following strategies are for 'normal' creeps. (Gremlins where it should be level 1 creep, not level 2! etc.)


Let's start with Level 1 creeps: (everything is related to week 1 here)
Imps, Familiars, Peasants, Conscripts, Skeletons, Pixies - no problem

Scouts - you can handle them with the hero and your scouts, but never use the Blood Maidens, because the scouts are tough at melee and they will retaliate

Assassins - these are a bit dangerous with their poison strike. There will be some losses unless you use your 3rd Hero

Skeleton Archers - more deadly than the scouts in terms of damage, as they are more. Hopefully, your hero will act first and kill most of them

Gremlins - weaker than the skeleton archers because of their low initiative, but they are still too many and you'll have some losses, but at least the hero will act before them for sure!

Master Gremlins - ouch! higher initiative than the hero! This one really hurts! Losses are inevitable here

Sprites - the level 1 nightmare of all factions except Necropolis. You must get your 3rd hero if you don't want losses!


Level 2 creeps:
Horned Demons/Overseers, Zombies, Plague Zombies - no problemo

Stone Gargoyles - in week 2, after you upgrade Blood Maidens, you can easily handle these. Though they die pretty hard, it takes 16 to kill one Blood Fury. The main strategy is to move your Blood Furies a little forward in the first turn, so the Gargoyles won't go at the center of the arena. This leaves you some spaces for retreating  ('retreating' here means to retreat from their attack range, not to flee from battle, of course)

Obsidian Gargoyles - Pretty tough. They have more Speed, Initiative, Hit Points and Damage and are immune to most of your destructive spells. If you want no losses at all (they won't kill much, but...), don't fight them in week 2 unless they guard something important or there is a level 2 dwelling on the map that you possess.

Blood Maidens, Blood Furies, Blade/War Dancers - you can handle these in week 2 with Blood Furies, Scouts and the Hero

Archers, Marksmen - the losses are inevitable at week 2, unless you reach these creatures with your Furies in one turn (via Tactics or Windstrider Boots) and your hero has a strong Destructive Spell. Still risky, though


Level 3 creeps:
Footmen, Squires, Minotaurs, Minotaur Guards, Iron/Steel Golems - need I say more?

Hell Hounds, Cerberi - if you don't want losses, and they don't guard something important, don't fight them in week 2. They're too fast!

Ghosts, Spectres - these are unpredictable. Generally, you can defeat them in week 2 (by moving forward with Blood Furies so that they will hardly move, then attack, retreat from their attack range, attack and so on...) If you fight with only one stack, you're almost assured they won't pose any threats, as the Furies are faster. That's why if they split, try to kill as many stacks as you can  Of course, there are some times when you miss over and over and over again (I know, the counter is 3 consecutive misses max, but still...) in this case, you really have problems.

(Master) Hunters - don't even think about attacking them in week 2 if they don't guard something important! Even in week 3 they are still a big threat; if you don't have Tactics or Windstrider Boots and your hero does not attack first, you'll have crazy losses (even the Shadow Witch can't withstand their high damage). Sure, having a level 2 dwelling on the map minimizez the threat, but still they are too dangerous!


Level 4 creeps:
Dark/Grim Raiders, (Imperial) Griffins - because they are large creatures, you can block your Furies with a stack of 1 Scout. Place the Fury bottom-right and the 1 Scout in the up-left tile of the Furies, so that they form a diagonal. Then handle these creeps with the Furies and the hero in week 3 (though it's possible to handle them at week 2, it's risky)

Vampires, Vampire Lords - ouch! doesn't work the trick above because they are small creatures. Still, in week 3 you should have some Shadow Witches, so place them in the Bottom-Left corner and the Furies, as usual, at the fourth tile from the left in the front line. The main idea here is to place the Furies at least three tiles away from the Witches, because the enemy will want to block the Shadow Witches and they will attack the Furies if they can! (it's much better to attack the Witches since they have 80 HP and high defense) If you managed to weaken them enough with the Furies and the Hero, they should not kill any of your Shadow Witches and you'll have ZERO losses

Succubi, Succubus Mistresses - pretty tough. They are even deadlier than the Hunters, as they die harder. Attack them from week 3 onwards (though it's pretty risky) and use the same tactics as with the hunters (see above)

Mages, ArchMages, Druids, Druid Elders - your worst nightmare. You can't handle them even at week 3 without crazy losses. Some high-level creatures are needed here.


Level 5 creeps:
Djinns, Djinn Sultans, Hydras, Deep Hydras, Hell Chargers, Nightmares, (Silver) Unicorns - try the same tactic as with the Grim Raiders, though attack them at week 3 or even 4 if you must!

Liches, ArchLiches, Priests, Inquisitors - pretty annoying, especially the Liches because they deal a great amount of damage. Go with high-level creatures if you don't want losses (though I once handled 13 Priests in week 3 with Furies and Assassins and lost only 2 Furies  of course, Eruina also helped a lot with Lightning Bolt)


Level 6 creeps:
(Ancient) Treants, Rakshasas, Cavaliers, Paladins, Wights, Wraiths - use the same blocking tactic as with the Grim Raiders (see above), though the Paladins, for instance, are a bit too fast... you shouldn't have problems at week 4 (most of them can be handled even in week 3! especially if you have a lvl 2 dwelling on the map) Here, the placement:
------1-1-
-------W-F
1 = stack of 1 scout; W = Shadow Witch; F = Blood Fury

Pit Fiends, Pit Lords, Shadow Witches, Shadow Matriarchs - use the same tactic as with level 7 creeps (see below)


Level 7 creeps:
All of them are pretty tough; you need high-level creatures to handle these. Wait until week 4-5.!


I think this is what I want. Is there anything like this for other fraction? Especially, necromancer because actually, I am an undead guy.

To ZombieLord, nice work
However, I have some question. How many units do you mean? You just specify how to creep a specific type of creature but you did not specify the ratio of units you have and natural units.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted February 07, 2007 11:15 AM

Well it depends on the number of the week I have specified, since you buy the entire week population for that specific creature anyway, because low-level creatures are so cheap (I mostly concentrate on buying them early).

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supphanat
supphanat


Hired Hero
posted February 07, 2007 05:57 PM

Quote:
Well it depends on the number of the week I have specified, since you buy the entire week population for that specific creature anyway, because low-level creatures are so cheap (I mostly concentrate on buying them early).


I see. You mean that if I buy all creatures in my town, I will be able to deal with the natural creatures according to your strategy. Thank.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
posted February 07, 2007 07:22 PM

You won't always have to but it is recommended. Still it may be better to upg a unit and recruit 2 types of units rather than buy 3. Check how each faction fares and it will come on its own.
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