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Heroes Community > Heroes 4 - Lands of Axeoth > Thread: What Heroes IV Would Have Been Like With/Without.....
Thread: What Heroes IV Would Have Been Like With/Without.....
ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 10, 2001 09:48 AM bonus applied.

What Heroes IV Would Have Been Like With/Without.....


What Heroes IV Would Have Been Like With/Without.....


Much Discussion has come over the long-awaited Heroes of Might and Magic IV game on the PC.
We here, being members at Heroes Community, have discussed the best, the worst, the interesting, things we'd like to change and the bizarre points of interest in Heroes of Might and Magic IV. Many famous threads include; 'Crusader of Archangel' , 'What Creature Should'nt be In Heroes4' , 'Heroes IV towns, creatures, facts, rumours and theories',  'New Creatures' , 'Necropolis Ideas' and many other notable threads.

You could now call the Heroes 4 Altar of Wishes, given all the discussion that has taken place, the Heroes 4 Altar of Opinions or something like that. (It wouldn't sound very good but it is the cold hard truth)
Because there are so many aspects of Heroes IV to name and argue over.

The Castles:
Too many for some. Not enough for others. No magic in the Stronghold. Not enough levels (4). Growth and Population. Alignments of magic. The structures and the new buildings which hold new functions like the Prison and many other buildings which are still unknown.

Creatures:
The biggest point: No upgrades, and therefore not enough creatures to control and use. Bad drwaings and pictures according to some people ( Not me ) individuality, High HP compared to the units in Heroes3, Heroes2, and Heroes 1.

Heroes:
Too many to choose from. Heroes actually taking part in battles instead of watching and cheering on the sideline. Changing hero pictures and uploading them onto the game for your pleasure. Riding creatures instead of the original horses.

Resources:
We now have to build mines on top of the free resource before it actually starts producing anything, instead of just picking it up and putting it to good use. Different types ( I think) The looks of them.

The Land/Landscape:
More lifesize and real, in terms of the size between the hero and the different-looking castle on the screenshot. More undulations to scramble over when fleeing from an overpowering hero. More obstacles to navigate through. Much crisper 3D graphics, which make gameplay more enjoyable. The aspect of fantasy literally booming out of the countryside.

Now we can think..... How and what would Heroes of Might and Magic 4 be like without the more controversial issues and aspects of the game.

The Dragon Golems:

If this notorius creature was put to rest and another was put in its place, what would Heroes 4 be like and what would the new creature be? How would this affect the balance of H4, and how would people feel in its absence?
Much of  you will answer: Doesn't matter, didn't like it anyway!!
How about if the old Dragon Golem was put in its place?

Only 6 Castles?
Be serious 6 castles surely cannot be enough, or can it???
How about if there were say 10 castles? The same argument would occur. Too many. but how would you feel, if in H4, there were 8 castles, like in H3. Would Heroes IV been more challnging then? More castles, more heroes, more creatures =ultimately more fun? I don't know. If you want to find out, compare it when the game comes out.

Heroes in Combat:
The heroes have really become heroes and have taken another HUGE step from Heroees 3, where you could have called them spellcasters, or creature enhancers, like tamers. But in Heroes of Might and Magic 4, you can really call them heroes. If the heroes were to play a similar role to this in Heroes4, what would your feelings, presuming you knew they werer going to fight? Personally i would be angry. Just like LordPaul was when he found out that there had originally been 6 levels instead of 4.

Conclusion:
Think hard, would Heroes of Might and Magic IV have been better with solely Heroes III aspects, ors solely with Heroes IV aspects? Or maybe it would be better with a mix of both games, to combine the best ideas?(I would choose the last)

PS:This information may be new to some people. All my resources came from Heroes4.org, Hmm4.com, and most importantly, Celestial Heavens Unleashed. (www.strategyplanet.com/homm)

What are your thoughts on this topic?
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 10, 2001 11:48 AM

more castles

more castles because there is more choice and if you play say a multiplayer hotseat game with 8 people, people would have to double up on the castles but if it was visa versa then it would be all different!
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rychenroller
rychenroller


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted October 10, 2001 01:36 PM

I  hve no idea personally, because, like all others, I havent played the game yet. How can you formulate an opinion on a game, or a comparison of games, when you havent seen one yet? H4 looks so much different to H3 its insane, and no-one will have a clue what it will play like. So this topic would seem to be...about 4 months or so early?
____________
Myctteakyshd

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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted October 10, 2001 03:20 PM

For now, most of it looks great. I'll wait with my complains untill I've played the game...
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 11, 2001 03:07 AM

Quote:
For now, most of it looks great. I'll wait with my complains untill I've played the game...


This thread is not about complaints. It is about your own personal opinion on what you would change. If you had the choice.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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UnkaHaakon
UnkaHaakon


Responsible
Famous Hero
happily tilting at windmills
posted October 11, 2001 03:11 AM

OFFTOPIC: QP bonus

Nice job of summarizing several far flung threads.

Hopefully it'll serve to send the discussion into this thread, so I'll have less to clean up.

And now, if you'll excuse me, it's back to reviewing stuff on pages 30 plus ....
____________
Some people say the glass is half full..Some people say it's half empty... I say "What're you asking me to drink?"

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Wyvern
Wyvern


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 11, 2001 07:55 AM

First, if there weren't six castles but more, the magic system wouldn't be the same. If there were 8+, they should keep the previous system. Now, if they kept the same old system, that wouldn't make anything new. And they say that it's the magic system that makes the game different.
If the previous skill system was kept, you wouldn't have the chance to choose between three skills when making a level. And now at least one of the three will be suitable for you, I hope.
If there weren't advanced hero classes, in the late game there wouldn't be much difference between the strong heroes. And now each advanced class will have unique stats.
If they kept the specialties of the heroes, maybe it would be more interesting because the heroes would be more unique... Maybe they didn't do that because it would be too hard for them to make up a specialty for every hero?
If there were three types of heroes per town, it would be too much. What would be the third type - Ranger or what? In this case the players would have to learn more thongs about the hero types and this wouldn't make them so happy. And it would be very difficult for the designers to make three different hero types for each town...
If only one hero could be in a party, then what? Maybe it would be more difficult to fight with the enemies because a hero is strong and two heroes would do more (if strong, of course).
If creatures couldn't be in a party without a hero, that wouldn't make the old players get used to new things... This also gives new options to the game. Anyway, I don't worry about this - I have become used to it by playing Age of Wonders!
If creatures gained experience, that wouldn't make sense. Yes, it exists in Age of Wonders, but there a creature stack is formed by only one creature. Since in the Heroes series there can be much more creatures in a stack, how could you expect them to gain the same experience? And (I think it was Malkia who said that), what would happen if you decide to mix some creatures with different experience?
If the structures in the castles weren't at the same place for every town, that would be better. I don't like one and the same composition for all the towns... But this doesn't affect the gameplay so much. If the composition was different for every town, that would be the same as in HoMM3, but is that bad?
If there were new resources, they shouldn't be more than one! Otherwise they wouldn't be of much use. With a x amount of buildings and more resourcres than before, one resource wouldn't be required for many buildings... And this would be frustrating.
If the game was 3D, I would suicide... No comment.
If the game wasn't isometric but the same as Heroes 3, I wouldn't mind but maybe now you would be able to place an entrance to a building on the adventure map on different sides of the building. This way two equal buildings will look different.
If you wouldn't be able to place an entrance to a building on the adventure map on different sided of the building:
1-two equal buildings would look similar
2-I wouldn't see the point in the isometric perspective...
If there wasn't a "script" system or something like that, the mapmakers wouldn't be able to make so precise features of the map. Anyway, I don't know much about this thing. But it will be useful.
If there were three levels of advancement of the skills and there weren't Master and Grandmaster level, the skills would be easier to develop (and obviously the aim of the designers is to make them harder to develop), and it would be the same as in HoMM3.
If the upgrades were kept, the town would be built up too slow.
If you couldn't choose between two different creatures per level, the levels would probably be more... But this is a new feature which should not be underestimated... It will cause new strategies.
If they didn't mix the creatures in the towns and they didn't add new creatures, the game would be the same as Heroes 3. But we want a dufferent game, don't we? So you shouldn't be angry that the creature X has moved from town Y to town Z...
I could say twice as much as that, but I think that these points are more than enough. It's the other members' time!
Oh, and if the WYVERN was in the game, I would be the happiest human being!

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 11, 2001 09:23 AM

Hmmmmm..... A very good argument about the castles there, Wyvern. Yes, the system wouldn't work. And if there were 3 heroes per town it would be too much.

But the point in an isometric game view is that you see more of the screen and give it a mor life-like persepctive.

Enjoy the game when it arrives Wyvern, even if your beloved creature is not included. Maybe in Expansion Pack.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted October 11, 2001 06:29 PM

how large was the max number of players in multiplayer? 6? i wonder if it will be different in hot seat and how many computer opponents will be the max in sigle player? in the case of 6 players max, ppl would not have to double up on castles.. *sigh*

as far as i understand, the placement of buildings is meant to avoid trying to recruit from the town hall, as often happened while playing homm3.

i liked the hex battlefield, doesn't it seem that they are going to have squares in homm4? the hex thing made it look more like a game of geeks, and i liked it..

hmm.. i guess they would have to change a lot of the storyline if they removed the dragon golem (not that i would think it would be a bad idea). but on the other hand, the dragon golem surely makes many players angry and eager to destroy it. nevertheless i wouldn't like it in the form posted in this thread. there has been a screenshot with a different-looking dragon golem, copper-like in color and more like an ordinary dragon and without the robotics engineer. i liked it a lot better, and imho it was just about enough to make me upset with it without going way overboard. anyone has heard anything more about that dragon golem?
____________
what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything

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hydro1234
hydro1234

Tavern Dweller
posted October 11, 2001 06:43 PM

dragon golems

I like the dragon golem, they could do some cool scenarios with it.

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niteshade
niteshade


Known Hero
posted October 11, 2001 06:51 PM

The only thing I have seen that I don't know that I will like is creatures moving without the hero. While I have no problem with most of this, I know the first thing everyone is going to do in every game is make lots of groups of 1 lvl 1 monster and send them all over the map scouting, and (if possible) collecting resources. This is going to slow multiplayer games down incredibly.

In Age of Wonders you could send units around to scout too, but it wasn't as annoying there since a single unit was a fairly important thing. If you sent 8 units out to scout and they all died, you just lost an entire army. In Heroes losing 8 lvl 1s would be insignificant.

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Gerdash
Gerdash


Responsible
Famous Hero
from the Animated Peace
posted October 11, 2001 07:42 PM

actually, i don't think that will be a problem. what if the only ones who can reveal the map (scout, or "see", if you want it that way) are the heroes, and same about picking up resources.
____________
what is the safest way to pass your time? heroes community -- your posts won't affect almost anything

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StormWarning
StormWarning


Promising
Famous Hero
Archmage of Thunder
posted October 11, 2001 09:52 PM
Edited By: StormWarning on 11 Oct 2001

Quote:
actually, i don't think that will be a problem. what if the only ones who can reveal the map (scout, or "see", if you want it that way) are the heroes, and same about picking up resources.


No, they've already said creatures can do all that stuff. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to sending creatures on their own.

The only change that I'm really not certain about is the removal of the "one building a turn" rule. That could get pretty powerful early (and is a little unrealistic, since townsfolk can only do so much each day). But depending on how they do it (if buildings cost a lot more than they used to) it may not be a problem.
Multiple heroes in an army? Awesome!
New skill and magic systems? Probably the best change in the game, IMO.
Only 6 towns, and no upgraded creatures? I can live with that, because each town has 8 build sequences for creatures and the creatures are all unique enough now that I can live with no upgrades. I have no complaints here.
Limit 6 in multiplayer? I don't really care because I've only started one 4-on-4 in my life, and we still haven't finished it. Plus this way no one has to double up.
Isometric perspective? The graphics look sweet!
No 3D? Good. Keep it that way. 3D won't enhance the gameplay any, and if they sacrifice gameplay and low-end requirements for graphics I'm gonna be mad.
No hero specialties? I don't care about that, as the only thing they really did was net you some extra gold early or give you a ridiculously powerful spell early.

One miscellaneous change that is really handy: on the level-up screen, you can see what skills you already have. This was one of my pet peeves in H3: I'd get Logistics or some equally awesome skill, but I was saving a slot for Earth Magic and I can't remember if I have 1 or 2 open. If I have one, I'd have to forget about Logistics. If I have 2, I'd gladly take it. But it becomes a guess as to whether I have room for it. No more need for that, and that gets a big thumbs-up.
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The calm before the storm is about to end.

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niteshade
niteshade


Known Hero
posted October 11, 2001 10:46 PM

Well I'm not sure about monster stacks picking up resources though I suspect they can, otherwise the bandits wouldn't be able to use stealth to sneak past monsters and grab stuff like they are supposed to. I'm sure though that they can reveal the map. I can't imagine they just walk off into the blackness of the map not knowing where they are going.

The unlimited buildings per turn thing worries me too, but I'm not going to worry too much until I know exactly how it works. There may be more to that rule then we currently know.

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Preserver
Preserver


Promising
Famous Hero
Elemental Druid
posted October 11, 2001 11:29 PM

What I meant was...

Quote:
This thread is not about complaints. It is about your own personal opinion on what you would change. If you had the choice.
What I meant was, that I'll wait with my changes untill I've played the game. It was not any critic of you or your great thread. I just think on this topic, complaints and changes are almost the same (for me). And sorry for going off-topic...
____________
- The only alert the invaders had was the rustling of leaves on a day without wind -

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 12, 2001 01:28 AM

Quote:
Quote:
This thread is not about complaints. It is about your own personal opinion on what you would change. If you had the choice.
What I meant was, that I'll wait with my changes untill I've played the game. It was not any critic of you or your great thread. I just think on this topic, complaints and changes are almost the same (for me). And sorry for going off-topic...


Sorry, Preserver, its OK. I see your point.

6 castles, in my opinion is well, sort of Ok, if you have much diversity in them. But that is what they are lacking a bit. 6 levels instead of 4, that would be OK. We could then accomodate some creatures that people have discussed in my 'New Creatures' thread.
6 castles=6 levels, for me.
Not to be though.
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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DarkTitan
DarkTitan


Promising
Famous Hero
posted October 13, 2001 02:05 AM

um



6 castles, in my opinion is well, sort of Ok, if you have much diversity in them. But that is what they are lacking a bit. 6 levels instead of 4, that would be OK. We could then accomodate some creatures that people have discussed in my 'New Creatures' thread.
6 castles=6 levels, for me.
Not to be though.


I think that if you were to have 4 creatures, six levels should apply. But if you have it with 6 creatures with six levels, i wouldn't span out correctly.  
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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 13, 2001 02:24 AM

Actually, DarkTitan, it would have, since this was the initial plan for 3DO.
It worked, 7 levels with 9 castles(Including Conflux)
6 levels per castle seems good to me.
I'm sure many other people would have enjoyed six levels instead of 4 anyway.
Heroes 4 is supposed to be more advanced, i see no problem in having 6 levels.

____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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camelnor
camelnor


Famous Hero
Also known as Blue Camel
posted October 13, 2001 03:13 AM

Stormwarning...

"No, they've already said creatures can do all that stuff. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to sending creatures on their own. "

actually, you could send them out to guard mines, passageways, etc... you could do plenty w/them even if they couldnt pick up resources...

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ThE_HyDrA
ThE_HyDrA


Admirable
Famous Hero
The Leader of all Hydras
posted October 13, 2001 10:05 AM
Edited By: ThE_HyDrA on 15 Oct 2001

Quote:
"No, they've already said creatures can do all that stuff. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to sending creatures on their own. "

actually, you could send them out to guard mines, passageways, etc... you could do plenty w/them even if they couldnt pick up resources...


Yes, a very good point there Camelnor, one which I have failed to exert in my initial thread.

This added extra is a large + to the Heroes of Might and Magic 4 game, not only have the Heroes taken a step up, but the creatures have also, but it is not as prominent, but helpful none the less.

This makes creatures not only a battling tool, but an adventuring one aswell. This is a plus in many ways. More use for both. Adds more to strategy.

In Heroes of Might and Magic there was much to choose between a Hero and creature, but nowadays, it is really very hard to distinguish between a hero and a creature, since they have very similar functions.

-cast spells
-adventure with an army
-participate in a battle situation
-collect reasources

Heroes 4 keeps getting and better and better. :0)
____________
"Dragons may breathe fire, but Hydras have many heads." - The Creed of Hydras
"As the Dragon drew its breath, the Hydra pounced, swiftly but powerfully, and the Dragon was defeated.

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