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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Opposite Spells (Light and Dark)
Thread: Opposite Spells (Light and Dark)
GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted March 25, 2007 03:05 PM
Edited by GenieLord at 15:27, 25 Mar 2007.

Opposite Spells (Light and Dark)

There are many spells that do the opposite effect.
In each 'pair', which one is better?

Haste or Slow?
Haste spell increases the initiative, and Slow decreases it.
Let's check how strong are the effects:
Without mastery: Haste-10%, Slow-25%.
With basic mastery: Haste-20%, Slow-30%.
With advanced mastery: Haste-30%, Slow-35%.
With Expert mastery: Haste-40%, Slow 40%.

You can get mass effects to both of the spells (slow-with Master of Mind, haste-with Master of Wrath).

Both of the spells work on all the creatures (including undead, elemental and summoned).

There's only one difference, the strengh of the effect:
The effect of the Slow is more powerful. When you have expert mastery in Light magic and Dark magic, the effect is similiar-40%.
Slow's effect with basic Dark Magic mastery is equal to the effect of Haste with advanced Light Magic (30%).
Slow is better.

Divine Strength or Weakness?
Divine Strength increases the minimun damage and Weakness decreases the maximum damage.
Ofcourse, the minimum never will be more then the maximum, and the opposite.
That thing does that creatures, like the Archangel, with similiar maximum and minimum damage rates (50-50), aren't be effected by these spells, and those with large range, like the fallen angel (25-75), will be very effected of those spells.

How strong is each spell's effect?
Without mastery: Divine Strength-the minimum damage is increased by 50%, Weakness-the maximum damage is descresed by 50%.
With basic mastery: Divine Strength-65%, Weakness-35%.
With advanced mastery: Divine Strength-80%, Weakness-20%.
With Expert mastery: Divine Strength-100%(the minimum damage is similiar to the maximum damage), Weakness 0% (the maximum damage is similiar to the minimum damage).

There's no differnce between the spells.

Word of Light or Curse of the Netherworld?
Word of Light spell deals damage to all the undead and infernal creatures on a battlefield, and Curse of the Netherworld deals damage to all the creatures except of indernal and undead.

Both of them does similiar damage, which is quite pathetic.
Without mastery: 16+4*Magic Power
With basic mastery: 16+4*Magic Power
With advanced mastery: 16+4*Magic Power
With Expert mastery: 64+8*Magic Power
But you can get the spells only with Expert Mastery, anyway, except of you get the spell in a scroll, as an artifact.

There are no effects that improve these spells.
There's only one simple reason why Curse of the Netherworld is better: It deals damage to all the kind of creatures, except of two. Word of Light, deals damage only to these two kinds of creatures-infernal and undead.

Endurance or Vulnerability?
Endurance Might increases the defence and Vulnerability decreases it.

Endurance Might costs 6 mana and Vulnerability costs 5 mana.
You can cast Vulnerability how many times you want (minimum defence is zero always), but Endurance you can cast only once.

The strengh of the effect:
Without mastery: Endurance-3, Vulnerability-3
With basic mastery: Endurance-6, Vulnerability-4
With advanced mastery: Endurance-9, Vulnerability-5
With Expert mastery: Endurance-12, Vulnerability-6

Endurance is much stronger, but you can't cast it many times, like Vunerablity. If you have a lot of knowledge (a lot of mana), you better use Vunerablity. If not, use Endurance.

Righteous Might or Suffering?
Righteous Might increases the attack and Suffering decreases it.
I prefer Suffering only becuase Righteous Might costs 6 mana, which is away too much for this kind of spell (Suffering costs 5 mana).

Summary:
Haste < Slow
Divine Strength = Weakness
Word of Light < Curse of the Netherworld
Endurance = Vulnerability
Righteous Might < Suffering (In my opinion)

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TemjinGold
TemjinGold


Known Hero
posted March 25, 2007 03:09 PM

About Endurance and Suffering being better:

Just one problem: These spells only work when you are getting hit. Vulnerability and Righteous Might work when you are doing the hitting.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 25, 2007 03:17 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 15:18, 25 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Haste or Slow?
Haste spell increases the initiative, and Slow decreases it.
Let's check how strong are the effects:
Without mastery: Haste-10%, Slow-25%.
With basic mastery: Haste-20%, Slow-30%.
With advanced mastery: Haste-30%, Slow-35%.
With Expert mastery: Haste-40%, Slow 40%.

You can get mass effects to both of the spells (slow-with Master of Mind, haste-with Master of Wrath).

Both of the spells work on all the creatures (including undead, elemental and summoned).

There's only one difference, the strengh of the effect:
The effect of the Slow is more powerful. When you have expert mastery in Light magic and Dark magic, the effect is similiar-40%.
Slow's effect with basic Dark Magic mastery is equal to the effect of Haste with advanced Light Magic (30%).
Slow is better.
Slow is better EVEN AT EXPERT, mind you. The Ratio is much higher.

For example, 50% speed reduction EQUALS 100% speed increase. Why? 50% speed reduction means half speed. 100% speed increase means double speed.

A 100% speed reduction would make the unit have 0 initiative, while a 100% Haste increase will only make it act twice as fast. Surely Slow is much better. Since slow is a non-linear function, 75% is much better than 50% is to 25%. Do some math.


Quote:
Divine Strength or Weakness?
Quote:
After we cast Divine Strengh on it, its damage will be 26-31.
No it will be 31-31, 100% Divine Strength increase means 31. So both are the same.

Albeit Weakness is poorer since it can be resisted


Quote:
Endurance or Vulnerability?
Endurance Might increases the defence and Vulnerability decreases it.
There are two differnces: mana and the strengh of the effect.
Endurance Might costs 6 mana and Vulnerability costs 5 mana.

The strengh of the effect:
Without mastery: Endurance-3, Vulnerability-3
With basic mastery: Endurance-6, Vulnerability-4
With advanced mastery: Endurance-9, Vulnerability-5
With Expert mastery: Endurance-12, Vulnerability-6

Well, Endurance is much stornger, and I think that it worth to add +1 mana for that. This why I think that Endurance is better.
No it's NOT. Endurance has a duration, Vulnerability is PERMANENT.

Vulnerability can be cast multiple times on a stack (that's it, you can cast 100 Vulnerabilities on a stack to reduce defense by 600 at Expert), wheras Endurance is an active effect and can only be cast once, like any other spell.

Please pay attention to details like this.


Quote:
Righteous Might or Suffering?
Righteous Might increases the attack and Suffering decreases it.
I prefer Suffering only becuase Righteous Might costs 6 mana, which is away too much for this kind of spell (Suffering costs 5 mana).
Suffering can be resisted, all dark magic spells are cast on enemy therefore expose that possibility.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 25, 2007 03:27 PM

very nice points, TheDeath.

I wouldn't bother with such comparisons, though.. Both schools have a flaw, one spell of each tier is better than the other one, with slight exceptions. Say, for light magic:

*Divine strength<haste, haste works for every creature, divine strength is either poor at times (for creatures which min damage is close to max damage) or completely worthless (angels).
*Cleansing=endurance, sure 12 def is great, but without cleansing puppet master beats every melee army.
*Righteous might>deflect missle, after marksmen and skellie archers' downfall deflect missle is a poor spell IMO, maybe except fights against ossir
*Antimagic>Teleport, teleport is not very good without teleport assault while antimagic is always useful (it works as a dispel, mind you.. if you didn't get cleansing and enemy puppet master affected your best stack, antimagic is a life saver)
*Ressurection>Word of light no comment here



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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted March 25, 2007 03:30 PM

Mistakes were fixed. Thanks guys. I'll edit it more later.
The Death, I haven't got your point about the Haste and Slow.
The spells don't effect the speed at all, do they?

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted March 25, 2007 03:35 PM
Edited by TheDeath at 15:38, 25 Mar 2007.

Quote:
very nice points, TheDeath.
Thanks, altough this thread was about Light vs dark comparison, not Light vs Light

Quote:
I wouldn't bother with such comparisons, though..
Agreed. It depends on what you have. Say if you have only Angels, then of course you know which spell is useless.. note also that this also makes enemy's curses useless

Quote:
*Divine strength<haste, haste works for every creature, divine strength is either poor at times (for creatures which min damage is close to max damage) or completely worthless (angels).
In most cases, Haste is better. But Divine strength can really be 'better' in some occasions


Quote:
*Righteous might>deflect missle, after marksmen and skellie archers' downfall deflect missle is a poor spell IMO, maybe except fights against ossir
Deflect missile is still great. Well not as good as it used to absorb, but still nevertheless great.. though Righteous Might is better for, say, Sylvan with it's high initiative.

Quote:
*Antimagic>Teleport, teleport is not very good without teleport assault while antimagic is always useful (it works as a dispel, mind you.. if you didn't get cleansing and enemy puppet master affected your best stack, antimagic is a life saver)
Even teleport without TA is useful sometimes.. but since Magic Immunity is better in more cases, then it's better.

for example, you have your shooters blocked and follow after the hero.. teleport them and do close-damage

or use it to block enemy's moves.. sometimes obstacles help a lot

Quote:
*Ressurection>Word of light no comment here
I have a comment though:
Isn't it obvious?

EDIT: @GL

I was referring to initiative.. sometimes I feel like typing speed instead, it's shorter.. probably will use init from now on

Slow is better. 50% reduction means half init. this is the opposite of +100% speed increase.

Now to let you think, know that 75% reduction means twice as slower as 50% While 200% means twice as fast as 100%.

Even further, 87,5% means twice as slower as 75%, while 400% means twice as fast as 200%. Get it now? Slow isn't a linear function.. I don't know how to explain this better without getting into math.

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sdfx
sdfx


Famous Hero
posted March 25, 2007 04:16 PM
Edited by sdfx at 16:17, 25 Mar 2007.

Haste seems to be twice as bad than slow but:
-it owns magic heroes
-can't be resisted
-it multiplies overall initiative(boosted by arties) by 1.4

I mean slow doesn't increase Staff of the Netherworld effectiveness as much as haste increase Ring of Speed effectiveness.

0.8*0.6 = 0.48 which is 0.12, which is "really" 0.24 boost
1.2*1.4 = 1.68 which is 0.28 boost

meaning that with all those initiative arties haste is better than slow.

____________

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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted March 25, 2007 05:53 PM
Edited by radar at 17:54, 25 Mar 2007.

You should write Vulnerability has area effect and Stoneskin mass. That is imporant when u want compare spells

btw i am almost sure there was similiar thread

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 25, 2007 07:15 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 19:15, 25 Mar 2007.

Yes, Slow has a greater effect. I mean, 100% decrease to init will make you not act at all, while a 100% increase to init will just make you act twice as fast. The thing is that Slow can be resisted and doesn't work on creatures with immunities, i.e. Steel Golem

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted March 26, 2007 02:53 AM

As sdfx stated briefly, the issue with haste vs. slow really depends on the army you have and the army you're fighting against.  If you have a super-powered army and you're fighting a warlock who's just sitting there with his hydras, you're really not going to care how much slow reduces the hydras' initiative because the real threat in this fight are the lucky empowered meteor showers and implosions raining down all over the place.  You're very much going to want haste though so you can quickly have your army overrun the warlock's much weaker army before his destructive spells can turn the tide.  Slow, on the other hand, is more useful in other situations such as the ones everyone's been pointing out.  Thus, neither spell can claim to always be better (though it's completely illogical that haste's percentages are lower at lower levels of mastery).

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted March 26, 2007 07:10 AM

Haste is the most precious thing against warlock: He will act less often compared to your creatures that way, so his damage dimnishes.. you can consider it a "slow spell that works on heroes"

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 26, 2007 09:06 AM

Quote:
Thus, neither spell can claim to always be better (though it's completely illogical that haste's percentages are lower at lower levels of mastery).


Yes, I agree with this. I suppose the thinking is, that Haste has to be lower because it cannot be dispelled, but the difference is way to big - 25 % for Slow without mastery is still a decent spell, but 10 % for Haste seems completely useless.
____________
What will happen now?

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2007 02:46 PM

Quote:
I suppose the thinking is, that Haste has to be lower because it cannot be dispelled


What do you mean by "haste cannot be dispelled"?  Cleansing works on it (though the real way people dispell it is to use mass slow because it hits all targets and costs far less than mass cleansing, and even less than regular cleansing).
____________

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 27, 2007 02:50 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 14:52, 27 Mar 2007.

Quote:
Quote:
I suppose the thinking is, that Haste has to be lower because it cannot be dispelled


What do you mean by "haste cannot be dispelled"?  Cleansing works on it (though the real way people dispell it is to use mass slow because it hits all targets and costs far less than mass cleansing, and even less than regular cleansing).

I think he meant "it cannot be resisted"? That's why Haste has to be lower, because it cannot be resisted, but Slow can. And what has said TheDeath about the non-linear increase of the Slow spell explains why at higher values (Expert) they have the same value.

But yeah I agree, 25% vs 10% is waaay too much. I think Nival know that too, because the AI is just "obsessed" with Slow even at no mastery, while it never uses 10% Haste.

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blink
blink


Adventuring Hero
posted March 27, 2007 02:54 PM

Quote:
I think he meant "it cannot be resisted"? That's why Haste has to be lower, because it cannot be resisted, but Slow can. And what has said TheDeath about the non-linear increase of the Slow spell explains why at higher values (Expert) they have the same value.


Ah, ok that makes more sense.  But still, I think it's illogical because by that line of reasoning, Righteous Might should be weaker than suffering but it's not.  The same could be said of divine strength and weakness.  Yet for some odd reason Nival singled out haste/slow for this discrepency in power.  I'm inclined to think there's no real logical reason for it and it's just another case of Nival not thinking things through.
____________

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 27, 2007 02:59 PM

Well, Suffering costs 5 Mana while Righteous Might costs 6 Mana

ok, I don't see a difference about Divine Strength/Weakness but...

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted March 27, 2007 03:24 PM

Yes, that was just a typo. Thanx for correcting me, ZL.
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TowerLord
TowerLord


Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
posted March 27, 2007 04:08 PM

Very nice points here...
About the Suffering , Righteous Might thingy ...

Righteous Might >>> Suffering ... Suffering has actually the same effect as Endurance with 2 main flaws :

1. Suffering can be resisted
2. Suffering cannot drop your attack below 0, while Endurance can enhance defense as much as it wants. This applies to low level creatures

So Suffering < Endurance , and Suffering <<< Righteous Might

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted March 27, 2007 04:13 PM

Suffering cost 5 Mana, Endurance 6
Also, to reach 0 is a rare case, since the heroes boost their armies with Att/Def (even Academy may have some... especially with arties/map locations)

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Istari
Istari


Known Hero
Truth Teller, ToH
posted March 27, 2007 04:15 PM

Radar is right, for more info on this topic see its previous thread here
____________
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