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Heroes Community > Heroes 7+ Altar of Wishes > Thread: THE PERFECT BALANCE.
Thread: THE PERFECT BALANCE. This thread is 5 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 · «PREV
alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 26, 2007 01:15 PM

No, it would have been either Ice or Lightning Bolt, but either they changed this in one of the patches, or my memory plays tricks on me. The latter would be likely to be the explanation.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 26, 2007 01:53 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 14:14, 26 Apr 2007.

Quote:
It seems the problem comes just as much from the Warlocks easy access to Artifacts through the Artifact merchant, and I would suggest that this building was made more expensive for the Warlock (1000 Gold + 5 Wood + 5 Ore is almost a gift - Wizard has to pay 5000 Gold for the same building!)


We can't compare just those 2 buildings, they are balanced as a whole. Try to compare costs of titans and black dragons. OR ritual pit and treasure cave.

Dungeon is a good creeper but Academy, Necro , Deleb and Vittorio are even better creepers.

I will repeat that Academy is even better in rushes than Warlock. This still makes magic (not only destructive, see week 3 phoenix)overpowered in rushes. But not only , Dark on the other hand is overpowered in late game.

My solution for this is very simple.

Play on maps like Battle for honor. There are 2 castles there and some external dwellings, that gives more chances to might castle and almost not possible to rush before week 4. Map isn't too big and dungeon will be able to attack before might castles are too powerful.

What is more this map gives a very special thing. You are not able to build everything in your towns that introduces a variety of strategies and make games more interesting.

Those things make nearly all matchups balanced. IF you look at my matchup analysis in this post, you will notice that in midgame there are only 2 matchups that are not well ballacned. I know that playing 1 map over and over may be boring, but this is a challenge for mapmakers to do maps which meet those contitions.

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted April 26, 2007 02:01 PM
Edited by ChaosDragon at 14:01, 26 Apr 2007.

Not only deleb, other inferno heroes usually can take war machines at level 2, and that makes them very close to deleb, seriously, you can creep everyday with only demons (after getting balista to shot twice).

As for academy, they're not only good at creeping, i fear their late game power as they have both dark and light magic, damn, i have no chance.

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted April 26, 2007 03:19 PM
Edited by Doomforge at 15:19, 26 Apr 2007.

indeed

but a nice deleb rush is not a thing to underestimate, trust me

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 26, 2007 05:46 PM

Quote:
No, it would have been either Ice or Lightning Bolt, but either they changed this in one of the patches, or my memory plays tricks on me. The latter would be likely to be the explanation.

I also think in 1.0 the spells could miss the target... but I'm not sure

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 26, 2007 06:44 PM

Quote:
Quote:
It seems the problem comes just as much from the Warlocks easy access to Artifacts through the Artifact merchant, and I would suggest that this building was made more expensive for the Warlock (1000 Gold + 5 Wood + 5 Ore is almost a gift - Wizard has to pay 5000 Gold for the same building!)


We can't compare just those 2 buildings, they are balanced as a whole. Try to compare costs of titans and black dragons. OR ritual pit and treasure cave.


Actually, I think you can compare them pretty well, since these buildings do exactly the same thing - just like Mage Guild costs the same in all towns!

Furthermore, I will go as far as saying that the Artifact Merchant is much more important for Dungeon than it is for Academy. 50 % Magic artifacts are available very cheeply, and will have huge impact for Warlock, as will any artifact that increases Spell Power.

Academy doesn't rely that heavily on Destructive, and Spell Power for Academy is not crucial - and Knowledge, unlike Spell Power, is not really that important once you reach a certain level, which 45 % chance + Enlightenment + possible Intelligence will easily match. Phoenix is very good for creeping, certainly, but you need level 5 guild to learn this spell, so it will not come in early phase of game.

Dungeon has easy access to spells like Ice Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Fireball and Circle Of Winter which are extremely usefull for even very early creeping, and therefore I think the very cheep Artifact Merchant for this faction is a problem.

And for both factions, the possibility for purchasing relic artifacts is extremely unfair for any opposing faction.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 26, 2007 08:01 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 20:04, 26 Apr 2007.

Well there is some truth in what you are saying but those 2 castles are rely heavily on magic and they NEED those artifacts to stand a chance to might factions. Besides, those artifacts cost hell of a lot so i don't see any problem with those merchants.

About relic thing.. Some of them are just overpowered and that is not a fault of merchant. If any might faction finds ring of speed its a gg and you can quit a game very often. Getting ring of speed by magic faction on the other hand isn't so overpowered.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 26, 2007 08:11 PM

Quote:
Well there is some truth in what you are saying but those 2 castles are rely heavily on magic and they NEED those artifacts to stand a chance to might factions.


Well do they really? I'm not so sure on this; referring again to Doomforge's table on former page, which might or might not have anything to do with the actual strength of the factions, Might factions almost always lose to Magic factions, with exception of Haven with heavy Training.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 26, 2007 08:15 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 20:32, 26 Apr 2007.

Its not truth , that generally might factions lose to magic. It depends on the map only. If you play small open map magic castles will win easily. If you play large multiple castle maps , might castles will win.
Medium maps are most balanced.

Even Towerlord said that he thinks that Heaven and Sylvan are best in Battle for Honor map, and this one is not even that big.

Quote:
Ok, the thing is that those Emerald Slippers and such artifacts are overpowered for Warlock, simply because they add A LOT of damage because the Warlock has such strong destructive spells.



Yeah, and luck and leadership are overpowered when sylvan or heaven gets them. Same reasoning.

This is just the way this game works and thats the beauty of it , that different factions have different ways to kill opponent. Moreover , you cant compare particular things between castles , even if they have the same effect. You need to look at the big picture. Ill give you an example. Everybody has  a mage guild in town. So why don't we remove all mage guilds in all towns , it will be fair , wont it? No it wont be fair because some factions rely more on magic than other.

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ZombieLord
ZombieLord


Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
posted April 26, 2007 08:16 PM
Edited by ZombieLord at 20:36, 26 Apr 2007.

Quote:
Well do they really? I'm not so sure on this; referring again to Doomforge's table on former page, which might or might not have anything to do with the actual strength of the factions, Might factions almost always lose to Magic factions, with exception of Haven with heavy Training.

That's because magic is always better than might

Ok, now seriously:
I don't think the artifact merchant is an 'unfair' addition to those 2 factions, because others have other bonuses, like -2 Luck when defending with Infernal Loom, the Guard Post for Fortress, etc.
I know the artifacts are much more powerful than those things, but they cost A HELL LOT. And there are also Artifact Merchants on some maps...

Ok, the thing is that those Emerald Slippers and such artifacts are overpowered for Warlock, simply because they add A LOT of damage because the Warlock has such strong destructive spells.

Quote:
Moreover , you cant compare particular things between castles , even if they have the same effect. You need to look at the big picture. Ill give you an example. Everybody has  a mage guild in town. So why don't we remove all mage guilds in all towns , it will be fair , wont it? No it wont be fair because some factions rely more on magic than other.

I know. It's just that I find those artifacts that boost the damage of spells too cheap, that's all.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 26, 2007 10:07 PM

Quote:
Its not truth , that generally might factions lose to magic. It depends on the map only. If you play small open map magic castles will win easily. If you play large multiple castle maps , might castles will win.
Medium maps are most balanced.


Granted, what I was refering to was 1 vs. 1 town maps. Indeed, on very large maps, things might very well turn upside-down. Not that that makes the whole situation better.

Quote:
I know. It's just that I find those artifacts that boost the damage of spells too cheap, that's all.


Wouldn't it be better if these artifacts, instead of giving a 50 % increase to damage (which for a Warlock meens a pretty extreme increase of Spell Power by 10 points or more) provided an increase to effective Spell Power of, say, +4 - at least for the minor ones? Then one could have other more powerful (and more expensive!) artifact to yield better bonuses.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 26, 2007 10:45 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 22:46, 26 Apr 2007.

There are artifacts that add spellpower , what is the point in having even more of them? 50% artifacts work on particular elements and you may be lucky or unlucky to get proper ones, having +x spellpower in its place would add to all elements. Even if it was +x to particular element damage only the effect would be equal for warlock and for wizard. It wouldn't be fair because warlock rely more on destructive than wizard. Now +50% for warlocks is better than +50% for wizards.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted April 27, 2007 12:11 AM

Quote:
Even if it was +x to particular element damage only the effect would be equal for warlock and for wizard. It wouldn't be fair because warlock rely more on destructive than wizard. Now +50% for warlocks is better than +50% for wizards.


He he I see we don't agree on that part, because for me, equal for all is always better. But yes, perhaps it would be too similar to a simple +SP artifact, but then they need to change them to Major artifacts, because +50 % Damage is quite bizarre from a Minor artifact considering that Spells are often the Warlocks most important weapon.
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Destro23
Destro23


Promising
Famous Hero
Keeper of GrongGrong
posted April 27, 2007 12:36 AM

I can see your point with the +50% artifacts, however converting them to say ... +6 or +10 spell power when casting Earth spells might be even more imba.  Imagine on day 3-4 you get one and suddely your firing a 12+ sp arrow at level 4.   These artifacts only really become imba on very high stat maps.  And even their they are not really imba.  They are just a very large boost in effective dmg.  I think also something could be done with the placement of the artifacts, the one that really shines is the emerald slippers of course.  Not only do they boost the most powerful offensive spells in the warlocks arsenal, they also occupy a slot that would otherwise not really be used for much.. I think best option other than slippers would be what? Dragon Bone Greaves maybe?  I guess the sandlas of +1 to all but meh.  

The only thing I do like about the slippers slot is that when you catch a warlock by surprise, he has his riding boots on

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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted April 27, 2007 07:45 AM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 07:51, 27 Apr 2007.

Hehe Actually boots are my favourite slot for dungeon , i always have problem  with this slot. You got plenety of options here.

close runner ups
+1 speed boots: VERY useful for dungeon
+10% magic resistance - very good vs academy (only artifact that grants magic resistance except armor of forgotten hero)

those are less useful but still:

+3 spellpower - they are good but slippers are obviously better if you got shower or implosion (they are not better if you have lets say only implosion and you play vs academy)
+1 to all sandals - despite they are relic they are pretty crapy for mages its more might heroes artifact.

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ChaosDragon
ChaosDragon


Famous Hero
posted April 29, 2007 05:21 PM

Back to the balancing vs dark magic, the next expansion will feature a spell called vampirism that will make the creatures gain undead atributes, therefore making this creature immune to mind spells, what do you think?

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Beowolf
Beowolf


Adventuring Hero
posted April 29, 2007 06:20 PM

Quote:
Back to the balancing vs dark magic, the next expansion will feature a spell called vampirism that will make the creatures gain undead atributes, therefore making this creature immune to mind spells, what do you think?


This spell will come in handy, but it would help only against  mind related magic. We cant be sure if casting vampirism on frenzied/puppet mastered stack will cancel those spells. Since warlocks have all those nasty empowered spells they dont rely too much on troops and they can wax enemy force before dark magic buffs will affect him anyhow. Demon lords on the other hand have almost none protection from magic and nothing do dispel harmful buffs, they could use some special ability to do so. Its next to impossible that DL's will pick light magic... no sources of higher level spells, even divine strenght and clensing are hard to come by in magic guild. Maybe we can expect some new perks to be introduced that will change something in this matter?

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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted September 29, 2007 06:57 PM
Edited by Moonlith at 19:14, 29 Sep 2007.

Figured I could add my own 2 cents

Melee Dunegon problem

Dungeon is a bit weird. In order for offensive Spellcasters to be effective, they require a defensive, powerfull army that can take blows and last LONG so their magic-oriented hero can dish out its damage. Dungeon is weird due to both magic and might being offensive oriented. Mind you, it really fits the faction, but against Dark magic, it's not very effective, and sooner self-destructive.

If you want balance, I think Dungeon should be more defensive oriented. And this reminds me of that little discussion about Sylvan, how their army is more offense oriented dispite their hero getting defense.

Solution, swap them about? Make the Warlock gain Defense and the Ranger Attack? Defensive Warlock units will be FAR less a threat to themselves, reducing casualties and buying the warlock more time to dish out its damage, and Mass vulnerability only covers 4x4. (Mind you, I still think the Warlock should have a spell or an ABILITY to deal damage according to the size of the target stack, like the new Pit Spawn's ability, +2 damage per unit in enemy stack). It would aid well in end game.

But I wonder if this would cause new imbalances.... Surely it would suit Dungeon to have tier 1 - 3 offensive oriented for good creeping, but tier 4 - 7 more defensive for end game guarding.

Their mage guide can't be the problem, regardless of the second specialization, Dungeon goes for Destructive.

Inferno<<necropolis

Inferno / Demonic + Light Magic = NO. Absolutely NO, it isn't natural and shouldn't be done. At the most you could give the hero some skill to perhaps boost his (/ her's) unit's resistance to Dark Magic, which DOES seem more natural. And as far as Necro owning Inferno is concerned.... Somehow it reminds me of Pokemon. Charmander > Bulbasaur > Squirtle > Charmander. Imbalanced? I don't know. One doesn't need to be able to beat ALL to be balanced. Ehhh, it's a very difficult topic...

Academy>Dungeon

Same problem as above. Does one really need to be equally as powerfull as another? It only seems natural that the main magic hero, the Wizard, is more powerfull magic-wise than a Warlock, who also has a bit on Might. But then, it's might gets crippled through dark magic... Somehow it's heading towards a DARK MAGIC IMBA thread xD Geez... Sad but very true. Soooo... Reduce dark magic power or increase destructo power in endgame.

Hmmm... What about giving the Warlock an ability to actually use some of its opponent's mana or Spellpower??? That could be very interesting... And definately give a better edge against specificly Academy. Or boosting the Warlock's SpellPower / Spellcasting speed according to the powerlevel of its own army.

Deleb problem

Hehehe... What of giving any Inferno hero a fireball effect to the balista? Although not increasing as much in power as Deleb does. How would that work? It definately would be a great help in early game creeping, while the lower-than-Deleb damage from the balista would in end-game still be as powerfull as in early game, thus not too much of an influence. And it does seem to fit Inferno.

Training problem

Like you said, tier-based.

Sylvan<<<<<<<Rushes

Which seems VERY natural and fitting to their peacefull and flower-sniffing elven minds, but as for balance issues... I don't like the idea of reducing Hunters to tier 2. Those shooters have always been the major backbone of the elves. What they need is a little defensive edge in early game. But, then, wouldn't that make them uberpowerfull if they do not have to fear rushes, and become very powerfull in endgame ? Treants should stay at tier 6, defensive tankies. Its unique, and you shouldn't ruin what's unique in a faction. If you want TRUE balance, all the factions would be the same. But nobody likes that. (Perhaps a hint, in multiplayer, play the same factions against each other That might be a better challenge!)


Quote:
I can see your point with the +50% artifacts, however converting them to say ... +6 or +10 spell power when casting Earth spells might be even more imba.  Imagine on day 3-4 you get one and suddely your firing a 12+ sp arrow at level 4.   These artifacts only really become imba on very high stat maps.  And even their they are not really imba.  They are just a very large boost in effective dmg.


Well if % boost to damage and numeral boost to Spellpower are imba, that leaves quite an obvious solution then huh? Give a % boost to the spellpower? Like + 40 % Spellpower? Actually I don't think + 50 % earth damage is that imba, Dungeon NEEDS it.


Well, so much for me ranting... Hope there was at least something sane within that...

And whoops, seems I revived an old thread

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted September 29, 2007 07:16 PM

Quote:
And whoops, seems I revived an old thread


You did, actually. This thread is kind of interesting, however, in the light of upcoming TotE, namely from the viewpoint: How many of these problems will be fixed with TotE.

A lot of them WILL be improved, like:

Melee Dungeon problem: New units like Red Dragon actually seems more might-oriented. Skill-whise, options like Shrug Darkness and Seal of Darkness will potentially help Dungeon against other Dark Magic users, although 2 % Dark and Light Magic chances still will do nothing for them on that account.

Inferno < Necropolis: Again, a boost in Dark Magic abilities with Master of Mind, Shrug Darkness and Seal of Darkness a viable option even against Necromancers, although you will not get full potential from Master of Mind due to Confusion imunity. Mark Of Necromancy is cut down in effectivity (will it matter?), and new Necromancy system also sets Necropolis back a lot. In other matchups than Necropolis, Seducer will give an edge against Dark Magic users.

Academy > Dungeon: Probably not changed, as Dark and Light Magic will still be a long shot for Dungeon.

Deleb Problem: Delebs ballista is nerfed, but will it make up for the addition of Tripple Ballista and Flaming Arrows abilities? Suggestion that Fireball effect should drain mana still seems a viable option.

Training Problem: Still relevant.

Sylvan < Rushes: Probably reduced with new Blade Singers and maybe also Dryads, probably more defensive units.
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Moonlith
Moonlith


Bad-mannered
Supreme Hero
If all else fails, use Fiyah!
posted September 29, 2007 07:33 PM


Quote:
Deleb Problem: Delebs ballista is nerfed, but will it make up for the addition of Tripple Ballista and Flaming Arrows abilities? Suggestion that Fireball effect should drain mana still seems a viable option.


But I would still suggest ALL inferno heroes being able to have that, a fireball-flinging balista, not just Deleb. Deleb just has a boost per level with it. But the mana-costing part of it would work too, since Inferno STILL needs an explanation why they get so much mana xD They have nothing to use it for other than Hellfire. Lots of mana suggests Lots of casting suggesting long battles, which is in contrast with inferno's fast-killing nature. Moreso if Familiars even boost that pool of mana. I'm surprised those Demonlords haven't drowned yet.

Quote:
Sylvan < Rushes: Probably reduced with new Blade Singers and maybe also Dryads, probably more defensive units.


Dryads? Blade singers? Psh! SharpShooter imba overpowered early / late game mass-killer @$#@& GRAAH!!! Screw tier 1 and 2 xD

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