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| Thread: Is War Machines (the skill) overpowered? |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 17, 2007 05:00 PM |
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How about either removing the limit on number of shots (for expert WM) or making it a mass effect?
Actually, I think the limit is fairly reasonable, in order to avoid unlimited resurrection capacity. I also like the fact that the limit is a fairly low number, so that you will not be tempted to delay for a very long time in order to get maximum benefit. Of course, some sort of skill-level dependancy on the charges could be introduced.
As about the mass effect, I think that would be grossly overpowered (mass resurrection?  ), but maybe it could be ballanced to work. I work rather work towards more powerfull (end game!) charges, and fewer of them, than multiple very week charges (number and/or recipant count).
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sdfx
Famous Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 07:29 PM |
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They can be very unfair for sure. A war machine hero can kill much stronger guards early AND he will easily get resources to build his city. Who cares it's bad late game, the first 1 or 2 weeks are the most impotrant anyway.
Unfortunately, I have no idea how to nerf them 
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TemjinGold
Known Hero
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posted April 17, 2007 08:47 PM |
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It's +1 Attack for every mastery of the War Machines skill. Not really much
That's actually more than it sounds. +3 is +15% damage, which is close to what Expert Attack + Archery gives you and it's given as a side effect of having Expert WM.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 17, 2007 08:57 PM |
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Unfortunately, I have no idea how to nerf them
No, finding a viable alternative solution is not easy. About the Ballista, would it help anything to reduce the stats of the thing? Currently, it has Stats 5 / 5 w/o mastery, and then goes to 10 / 10; 12 / 12 and 15 / 15 with War Machines. Attack 15 is pretty high (comparable to level 5 creatures), and will obviously give quite an edge when battling low-level creatures (during creeping phase).
And what about those Ballista specialists? Vittorio provides +1 Attack / Deffence per level, and Deleb's Fireball Ballista just seems plain overpowered - how does it work, does it add Fire damage on top of the normal Ballista damage, or does it just provide an area effect of the Ballista attack?
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ma_trix
Adventuring Hero
Carpe Diem
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posted April 17, 2007 10:24 PM |
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Ballista damage is applied ti attacked stack and 3x3 field is affected by fireball with centre on field that was attacked.
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted April 17, 2007 10:47 PM |
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Ok, so fire damage is added on top of the other? That seems clearly overpowered. Would probably be more fair to make it like the Lich Death Clod attack: Target suffers full damage, and surrounding 8 targets suffer half damage as fire damage. That would be handy but not über powerful.
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emilsn
Legendary Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 07:28 AM |
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Quote:
Quote:
It's +1 Attack for every mastery of the War Machines skill. Not really much
That's actually more than it sounds. +3 is +15% damage, which is close to what Expert Attack + Archery gives you and it's given as a side effect of having Expert WM.
So its kind of "overpowered" too? ...
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TowerLord
Promising
Supreme Hero
Hero of Good, Slayer of Evil
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posted April 18, 2007 11:46 AM |
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The War Machine skill is very powerfull on short term, and a little underpowered on the long term. The real power of the skill comes from the ballista which deals massive amount of damage, and the Tent which provides swift creeping!
It seems to work best with Academy (huge knowledge ) and Inferno (huge attack and knowledge) and with specialists. Also Sylvan War Machines could be overpowered since you can imbue the ballista with spells, but they are a rare bird unfortunately .
The Dwarfs have some nice perks too, but I wouldn't say war machines are great for them, because they don't really focus on either attack or knowledge. Dungeon can use War Machines too, since they tend to have high attack, but there's nothing special about them, and it might be better to go for warlock's luck and other usefull warlock stuff.
Necro War Machines are the worst since they don't get Attack and Knowledge. Plague Tent is useless almost, and the only real benefit would be creeping, but Necro's have really powerfull creeping anyway nowadays.
On long term the skill becomes less and less usefull because hero stats dont apply to ballista and tent healing is less effective. The Ammo Cart +3 attack (to ranged) is the only long term benefit from War Machines , but that is less than only one ability (Archery), so it cannot make up for the loss of 5 skill points !
Flamming Arrow gives some kind of longer term to your ballista making it great even in later stages of the game ( like a ~1000 total dmg shooter)!
Another down side of the skill is the high vulnerability of the ballista, which can be destroyed easily with a damaging spell , or with a creature attack if the game goes on longer ... Taking down Deleb's Ballista fast is common practice, and it must be done asap.
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Golemcrafter
Promising
Famous Hero
Unlimited Fantasy Master
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posted April 18, 2007 01:50 PM |
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I always hate when I fight in a duel against Deleb because she has the skill that the ballista shoots twice and it doesn´t just hit the attacked unit but thoose who stay near to them.
However it worth a lot to get this skill because by sieges you can destroy the wal easly, especially when you have the skill "Tremors": no just the wall but the whole enemy units who are inside the castle.
Reasons for "not overpowered": - war machines can be easly destroyed (perhaps except the Catapult)
- you have to get all levels if you want to command your own war machines (Basic, Advenced, Expert, maybe Plauge Tent or Tremors or even Triple Ballista)
- there are just one war machine that inflicts damage again depending on the hero´s level (I don´t count the Plauge Tent)
Reasons for "overpowered": - see my "Deleb-reason" at first
- Tremors: you have to go out of your castle or your troops will slowly die (however the damage is not very much (100 dam.))
- commanding the Catapult by the enemy hero: the shooting towers will be destroyed very quickly
- Heroes starting skills which are at the beginning there to improve the war machines are always (too) strong
- "big" problem: Artificial Glory (Wizard´s skill)
To say the truth the war machines skills are really a bit overpowered but it costs a long time to learn it. Perhaps most of the players would rather choose other skills which f. e. improve the spells...
That is my opinion.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 01:56 PM |
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I still don't get why all people say that Deleb is overpowered and other specialits are not. I guess they need to play against better players to understand that there is not much difference between them.
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 02:06 PM |
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Lol i guess you totally misunderstood the topic. In this topic we discuss War machines in standard game, not imbalanced duel heroes.
And even if you refered to few standard games, the fact that you lost some games to that hero doesn't prove anything.
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Doomforge
Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 02:07 PM |
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you mean that 80 extra ballista damage? woo-hoo, uber.. -_-
Deleb is good because she can creep insanely fast, and have a level advantage over many heroes. That's all.
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Golemcrafter
Promising
Famous Hero
Unlimited Fantasy Master
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posted April 18, 2007 02:12 PM |
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Lol i guess you totally misunderstood the topic. In this topic we discuss War machines in standard game, not imbalanced duel heroes.
Just look at my post that comes after TowerLord. Again you say I´m totally misunderstood the topic?
nonsense and no more comment...
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feluniozbunio
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 02:15 PM |
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It was you who started talking about duels, not me. Duels are separate option and if you meant few games 1 vs 1 you should be more clear to avoid confusion next time.
Quote:
you mean that 80 extra ballista damage? woo-hoo, uber.. -_-
Deleb is good because she can creep insanely fast, and have a level advantage over many heroes. That's all.
Not exactly, In first few weeks it's Delebs main force. Her creacures suck hard and do nothing in comparison to the ballista. On big maps where you fight on week 4, or 6 it works as a nice shooting stack(you said that yourself many times)
About Havez his ballista is weakest at the beginning but in late game turns to killing machine if you get flaming arrows and expert enlightenment(which you always have) Like Towerlord said it deals around 1000 dmg. Sick?
About Vittorio. His ballista is different than delebs , it doesnt have fireball and its weaker at the begining but in the final fight it deals more damage to single stack than Delebs.
All 3 guys have the same feature. They gain enourmous benifit for creeping AND have powerful shooter in final fight. That makes the skill overpowered(or should i say , those heroes). Many people say its easy to kill ballista. I can say its easy to say. Sure i have killed ballista few times with 1 spell. BUT. One thing is that most of times it has to be either implosion or a lucky spell. Second thing is that you must use your turn to kill it. Why on the earth i would like to kill a ballista when i may kill a stack of Palladins/Mages/Nightmares and so on with the same spell. This leaves ballista till end of combat as a normal creature.
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gecko
Tavern Dweller
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posted April 18, 2007 07:28 PM |
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I don't like the 3 shot limit when you have the Tent skill. IMO, the tent should work the same as for when you don't have the skill, and the 3 resurrections/cleansings should be activated (like the master gremlins).
That is, the tent continues to work as a normal unresurrecting tent, with three activated resurrections.
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ChaosDragon
Famous Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 07:55 PM |
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Felun is right, not only deleb that is overpowered, all heroes that have war machines early are powerful enough to outlevel their enemies, especially those who have it at lv 1.
But that doesn't mean that i'm againts war machines, imo war machines is okay, they need no rebalance, because they grow weaker in endgame battle, however it's different story for inferno, vittorio and any lucky sylvan heroes, triple imbued balista >> no comment.
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Homer171
Promising
Supreme Hero
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posted April 18, 2007 09:50 PM |
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War Machines is not overpowered skill. Heroes what starts whit ballista and War Machines skill have huge boost in the early game allright.
Deleb is still my favorite DemonLord hero and Vittorio is better than Dougal now. Havez is nice alltough used only as secondary so far. What about Havez hero vs. Deleb whit Remote Control 
But why dosent any ranger have War Machines as starting skill? I would like Imbue ballistas but it's crazy to take War Machines skill later. Talanar should have War Machines instead of Recruitment (Leadership) skill! Well perhaps Talanar would be overpowered whit War Machines skill 
Kaspar is fine whit Tent but there could be fifth War MAchine skill to boost up ballista perhaps.
Runemages and Warlocks can skip War Machines but i see great potential for this skill for future Orc fanction 
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