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| Thread: Homm 5 AI Testing Grounds |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 3 4 · «PREV / NEXT» |
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 20, 2007 02:50 PM |
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Lol that would either ruin my morale or I would roll on the floor for a while 
Apparently the AI builds like that only with limited resources but it has no planning. It can perceive it has little resources to change its plans(for worse of course) as well the presence of enemy artifacts but it cannot calculate that it can pick up and return to town safety...Or that after his main is out it can buy another hero from turn 1.
Also blue did buy a second hero that stayed in town as well and he would occasionally swap them between turns. Maybe it was trying to trick me again somehow 
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dkolb
Promising
Known Hero
Nay Nay and Aslan Protector
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posted June 20, 2007 10:21 PM |
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I think the AI like "knows" approximately how many days you are from their castle at any given time regardless of whether they see you or not. And I think they adjust their strategy based on how many days away you are. It's pretty rare when I'll catch them with their pants down (ie their hero off somewhere and an empty castle to take) However one time an AI ally took a castle from the enemy who seemed to offer hardly any resistance, so that makes me think that they are prone to consider human AI as enemy number 1.
Maybe blue's thought process was that I'm going to be attacked this turn or next turn. I need to build as much as I can as fast as I can favoring a large amount of low level troops
I think it also feels the need to always panic and build illogically when you have wings/or boots that walk on water on and are less than 3 days in a straight line away from him. When it saw Wyngaal it really WAS afraid of him. It felt that if it ventured even one foot to get the resources that you would go and steal his castle.
The other hero it bought WAS to trick you though theres no doubt about that! 
My favorite AI moment besides the whole warriors tomb thing was when the necropolis bought a knight hero, gave him some troops had him run a couple of feet and then came back and stole his skeletons. I mean what the hell are they doing?
The AI for orange suffers from paranoia apparently that's why he won't leave the castle.
The AI for blue has post-Wyngaal disorder
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted June 20, 2007 10:32 PM |
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I guess you're right Also something else that is a bit disappointing is that it will attack you even when it can lose, something you would rarely see in H2 - at least the higher difficulties.
When I end my exams I'll see what else I can check about the AI. After all 2.2 will probably have improved it's AI a bit like 1.5 supposedly has. Didn't check it out.
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Lednah
Hired Hero
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posted June 22, 2007 09:41 PM |
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According to the manual astarting from hard difficulty the AI reacts more agressively to the humans then to the AI player AND give high importance to the towns. So it is quite common on heroic the AI to send a middle (relatively) strenght stack to the undefended town neglecting the *minor* fact of nearby strong human stack. The result - 2-3 middle strength AI stacks destroyed in some 10 turns when trying to reach the town. After that the AI is toast.
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted July 04, 2007 03:12 PM |
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This thread prompted a question on the ubi forum so I'll put the question here:
Quote:
How did they get Temkhan? I have been dying to play with that hero ever since he was announced, but then it appeared as if he never actually made it into the game. Is he actually in there and available?
Anyone know a map where Temkhan is available or how to get him?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 04, 2007 06:33 PM |
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Edited by Elvin at 18:41, 04 Jul 2007.
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Not sure of a map but Sfidanza mentioned something about him in the questions thread I think. As for me I don't really know how I did that when I tried again he was not there not from the hero list neither from the add garisson hero town option...
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MartectX
Adventuring Hero
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posted July 04, 2007 11:10 PM |
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Quote:
...that makes me think that they are prone to consider human AI as enemy number 1.
*ahem* There is no such thing as human AI! 
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted July 05, 2007 12:58 AM |
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Well, we miss the artificial and they miss the intelligence part
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PhoenixReborn
Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
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posted July 09, 2007 03:13 AM |
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Well I tried out a map called duel for professionals.
On this map there are enough trees of knowledge to go up 35 levels which is the maximum for the map. In addition you start with a fullly built castle plenty of resources and access to an artifact merchant.
So you it's a building your hero map, if you rush to your enemy you meet end of week 2, beginning of week 3. It's very fun to play against a human, but imagine my surprise when on hard difficulty I got to the enemy castle and met a level 1 hero. I tried it twice and both times the a.i. hero just sat in the castle. I guess they don't go to knowledge trees
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MartectX
Adventuring Hero
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posted September 02, 2007 03:18 PM |
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My guess: The AI has no concepts for "build-your-hero" maps. It gets totally confused about the means of how to get to you, the obstacles and places to visit.
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 02, 2007 03:46 PM |
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Not exactly, the AI will visit locations and attck the neutrals in the way to get to you fast. Assuming you are not stronger in which case it will not leave town. However it just avoids certain adventure locations and has wrong priorities in what it visits.
So far I have heard conflicting stories stories of the AI being very aggressive or totally unprepared and I'm not sure why that is or what conditions trigger that. In every map I have played on hard it has attempted to rush me 
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LarkinVB
Known Hero
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posted September 05, 2007 10:35 AM |
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Is there any hope for a decent strategic AI with the expansion ? Is Nival aware how broken it is right now ? Are there any AI modifications which increase AI usability ?
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 11:00 AM |
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Nival is aware of course but does not care, has other priorities or it is not in ubi's plan.
Maybe they are instead working on H6 AI but noone can tell at this point. The fact is that H5 has reached its last game and we have been without AI since the release so it was already too late to hope for that.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 05, 2007 04:10 PM |
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Interesting topic.
A few observations I have made. First, it is clearly visible that the AI is influenced by the presence (or lack thereof) of an enemy (player) Hero. Since this seems to be a prime consideration, to make proper observations of the AI, one should create two different kinds of environments for the AI: one in which the player is not hostile towards the AI (set it to Ally before the start) or totally out of the way, and one where the player is hostile and relatively nearby. In the latter case, set it up in such a way that the AI has a way to reach the player, but make sure there is several days worth of travel between the AI and the player (distance as indicated in the script settings is a good indicator of how far). Also, in this case, vary the strength of the player's army between the various trial runs to observe differences in AI behaviour.
Also keep in mind that a player no longer needs to have a town. Back in H3, if you didn't have a town for more than 7 days, you would automatically loose the game, but that is no longer the case in H5.
In order to observe the AI for the different factions, the best way to do would be to set up each AI player in its own testing environment (does "lab rat" mean anything? ), each environment set up the same way with respect to the layout of mines, resources, etc. In essence, just create one template and then copy it half a dozen times, once for each faction. Keep every faction symmetrical in position, also relative to eachother. Make sure they can't reach eachother easily or directly - make sure to disable "instant travel" and artifacts that enable movement in means otherwise impossible! Put up border guards, without tents on one trial. Place tents in another trial, so they can reach eachother eventually. The best setup for this one is I guess a pie-division of the map. No position is then unique with respect to another. (And, in fact, this is also more or less the way the RNG builds its random maps).
It will be interesting to observe several trial runs and see how much is done identical, and how much is random. And, last but not least, how much this differs between the different factions.
The above discussion clearly showed that the player was acting as observer, but always hostile towards the AI. As far as I know, it should be possible to set the player as ally towards the AI, so the AI won't consider it a threat. As an ally, you should be able to visit a town, see what it has built, etc. Just make sure you leave the garrison the same day, otherwise you prevent the AI from collecting troops and possibly hiring another Hero .
One thing I observed in my regular games, is that the AI doesn't seem to give a priority to collecting resources, when it has enough (mines or loose resources). It fails to recognize that it might need them later, or that it can prevent the enemy from accumulating them. Also, when it doesn't have enough money, it doesn't seem interested in capturing creature dwellings. This is silly, in my opinion; even if you don't have money to hire the creatures right at the moment that you capture them, you might have enough later in the week. If nothing at all, it does boost the growth in your town(s) if it matches them, and at the very least it prevents the enemy from getting that boost.
Last remark: someone mentioned the 8-towns limit and that this was incorrect. In fact, there was some truth in it. I don't know when they changed it, but in the past, anyone who owned 8 towns at any given time would automatically win the map. Even if there were still other players and/or other towns around; it was a hard-coded victory condition. I was very happy to find out that it was removed when I started playing HoF (which I only got in july ).
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alcibiades
Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
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posted September 05, 2007 04:21 PM |
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Good and relevant suggestions, have you tried playing with the Map Editor to set up a possible testing map?
Oh, and welcome back, long time no see - good to see that you're not completely lost to the Heroes world.
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What will happen now?
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 05, 2007 06:01 PM |
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I did play around with the editor a bit, and I was quite far in creating a nice 4-player map, but never finished it. Creating a testing map shouldn't be too hard, I guess ... I just need to find the time . Between buying a house and work, time is short in supply.
Yeah, I've been away for a while, but I've been lurking lately, ever since I got HoF back in july (I couldn't order it *anywhere* decently before that, ugh). Also recently got Shadow of Death for HoMM3, after all those years - playing that now as well  .
Anyway, I'll see if I can come up with something - but I won't promise anything!
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Elvin
Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
Endless Revival
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posted September 05, 2007 06:27 PM |
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Good to see you back Maurice
In one of the experiments one of the AIs with a big army left its area and aimed for another town(it did not have one)  It was idle when I was hostile so your observation hits the spot.
It was me that made the thread about the 8-towns limit but the topic was erased as unnecessary when I tested it and the condition wasn't there anymore. I don't play maps with so many towns but it was a relief, I still cannot understand Nival's logic in some things.
Anyway if you can come up with something I'd be interested to take a look Good luck with the house.
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H5 is still alive and kicking, join us in the Duel Map discord server!
Map also hosted on Moddb
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Orfinn
Supreme Hero
Werewolf Duke
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posted September 06, 2007 01:24 AM |
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Quote:
I did play around with the editor a bit, and I was quite far in creating a nice 4-player map, but never finished it.
Hehey! Same here, except that Im not that far into making the map. Have planted mountains, then going for the trees placements. It will be a spooky map, giving you a good october, halloween, spooky, exciting feel Just a hint there will be alot of blah's and howls in there. Its a 4 player map and its called The Great, Dark Forest.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 06, 2007 11:18 PM |
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Some interesting initial results from my make-shift map. I made a 2-floor map, and placed 4 towns on the surface, 4 underground. Using the "mask", I drew a yellow line (3 cells wide) to divide the area in 8 exactly even square pieces (4 below and 4 underground, so each city had its own private area, unable to reach any others). At the center of each piece, I placed a single town, stripped down as much as possible. Using 7 of the sections for the AI, I placed a town of my own in the 8th section. In order to observe the AI, I placed a Cartographer right at the center of the map on both levels, with a teleporter next to it, only reachable by my hero (the AI's were all blocked off due to the masking).
Around each town, about 20-tiles away from the entrance to the town, I placed the 7 mines. Gold right ahead, Wood and Ore to the left and right. Interspaced between them (evenly divided) I placed the other 4 mine types. With 7 mines placed over 8 possible directions, I purposefully left the spot directly behind the towns open, no mines there. So going clockwise from about 12 'o clock, I placed a Sulfur Deposit at 1.30, an Ore Pit at 3, a Mercury Lab at 4.30, a Gold Mine at 6, a Crystal Cavern at 7.30, a Saw Mill at 9, and a Gem Mine at 10.30.
Then I just observed in what followup order the AI would capture them; I did this on "Normal" mode, just to see if the map actually worked to begin with . I observed it three times, and these are the results:
Academy:
O -> Go -> W -> G, C -> S, M
O -> Go -> W -> G, C -> S, M
W -> Go -> O -> S, M -> G, C
Note 1: the S and M mines were closer to the Ore Pit and the G and C mines closer to the Saw Mill; hence the reason those are swapped when the AI also swapped the order in which in captured the O and W.
Note 2: On day 4, the Academy AI consistently recruited a secondary Hero, something none of the other AI's ever did. As a result, this AI was able to capture two mines on the same day. I will try another few runs with the Tavern disabled.
Dungeon:
W -> Go -> O -> S -> C -> G -> M
W -> Go -> O -> S -> C -> G -> M
W -> Go -> O -> S -> C -> G -> M
Note: Rather boring, but at least consistent 
Heaven:
W -> Go -> S -> O -> M -> G -> C
W -> Go -> S -> O -> M -> G -> C
W -> Go -> M -> O -> S -> G -> C
Note: Fairly consistent, it captures the Ore Pit as 4th mine, flipping a coin between M and S when it has to choose.
Fortress:
W -> Go -> M -> O, S -> C -> G
W -> Go -> C -> O, M -> S -> G
W -> Go -> S -> O, M -> C -> G
Note: This one is a toss-up between M, S and C, and like Heaven it picks Ore as 4th. It does not seem to prefer G at all.
Inferno:
O -> Go -> C -> W -> G -> S -> M
O -> Go -> C -> W -> G -> S -> M
O -> Go -> C -> W -> G -> S -> M
Note: Another boring one, but also note how it prefers C over W.
Necropolis:
O -> Go -> W -> S -> M -> G -> C
W -> Go -> M -> O -> S -> G -> C
O -> Go -> W -> S -> M -> G -> C
Note: Tricky one, needs more research. Doesn't seem to favor G or C, but has a somewhat tougher time chosing between O, W, S and M.
Sylvan:
W -> Go -> S -> G -> C -> O -> M
W -> Go -> S -> G -> C -> O -> M
W -> Go -> S -> G -> C -> O -> M
Note: Another consistent one, but note the oddity here: Sylvan captures the Ore Pit only as 6th (!) mine in the line up!
It seems all AI's favor capturing the Gold Mine as second one in the line.
There are a few things I learned from this:
- I should probably disable the Tavern. It at least influences Blue's capturing behaviour;
- AI Heroes visited their respective towns a few times during the trials, possibly to acquire new troops they could recruit;
- Day 7 of the week was causing a disruption, as the AI would send its Heroes to the towns and *sometimes* wait for the weekly turn, while other Heroes would venture out again (only to head back on day 1 of the next week ...)
- I should probably disable the Resource Silo as well, as it generates specific resources based on the town type. And in the case of Sylvan, also the Mystic Pond; its weekly resource growth can throw the AI off as well, I guess.
- At least I made sure to remove any Town specialisation, to prevent skewed Resource income based on that .
- Once a Hero has moved off to a mine, its location is not central, equi-distant to each mines. The AI seems to - partially - base its next choice for mine capture on the Hero's location relative to the mines still available. I might want to swap mines around a bit.
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Maurice
Hero of Order
Part of the furniture
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posted September 06, 2007 11:24 PM |
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I just had another brainwave. The towns themselves are not actually needed, so I could possibly move them off to a corner where they are out of the way, making sure the town is unreachable by the Hero. Then I can simply place the Hero right between the mines, making sure each of them is within its range.
I remember the first scenario in the Dungeon campaign of the normal game, where the 8 different Heroes each get teleported to a specific underground location. Using that same idea, the game could teleport the Hero to the center of the mines each day, forcing the choice on what mine to capture each day based on equi-distance to all available mines. I will just need to find that script .
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