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| Thread: TotE balance changes to Inferno |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · NEXT» |
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 08:43 AM |
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TotE balance changes to Inferno
Hey everyone, nice to see the HoMM community active, mad props for everything it's done, including the-somewhat-controversial-but-still "saveheroes.org" petition.
Since this is my first appearance here, here is my HoMM background. I've been with the series every step along the way since HoMM 3 and
absolutely fell in love with it (even with HoMM 4, with all its new and sometimes unpolished new features), and with the TBS genre ever since. It actually made me appreciate games I considered boring before, like Disciples 1 & 2. Concerning the style of play, it's always been about the "evil" races for me, 'cause I just heart Dark/Destructive magic - it allows a skilled player to withstand battles with overwhelmingly more numerous armies, something Light/Summoning schools are worse at.
Anyways, cut to the chase! As fas as I know, it's a general consensus that Inferno feels underpowered in HoMM V. To list a few things which are easy to catch an eye of even a less-experienced player, the Demons got only one shooter (and shooters, I think, are the key to victory when used to full potential), a quite weak L2 & L6's (both are almost exclusively used with Teleport Assault to engage the enemy in melee combat, plus L6 as a spellcaster) and a L7 that has a WTF-so-large damage range, 36 to 66, a lackluster special ability and a very, very high cost ONLY because the developers just had to push the 666 joke to the limit. Give it up guys, that joke's over, even the Charger did it better.
Here is another thing that is more of a conceptual shortcoming: if anyone actually cares to read the summary of HoMM V backstory (which BTW has a ridiculously high cliche-per-sentence concentration), they'd see that Demons provoked or started MOST IF NOT ALL conflicts. Now tell me how with such a not-so-terrifying army?
Now, whatever I'ma propose here to buff 'em up probably has all been suggested before, and I've seen some BRILLIANT IDEAS coming out of this community, but here's one thing: just look at TotE alternative upgrades and appreciate the laziness of the developers, actually just RECOLORING the old units. HONESTLY, WTF? Given this laziness, I doubt any of brilliant-but-revolutionary changes coming out of the fan base would be implemented.
So, here goes nothing. Any combination of the following could really give a boost to Inferno which they need:
1) Steal a bit from the Necros: recall LotR and the infernal hordes attacking the world? Yess, that's the sweet evil concept that's been done before many times, but what the Hell: EVIL FORCES are supposed to be MORE NUMEROUS. Hence, changing nothing to units' stats, boost their weekly growth by 20-35% and MAYBE give 'em a new town building to produce more gold to afford those legions.
2) Boost their Racial: this can be done by boosting the percentage of Gated creatures relevant to the stack that gated them OR (I'ma be crucified for this, but here it comes) giving them their current Ultimate (Urgash's call, Gating is instant) as an easier-to-reach ability, maybe displacing the current Luck perk giving demons a chance to summon twice as much reinforcements, but requiring Teleport Assault. I realize how much stronger this would make inferno, this definitely needs to be fine-tuned.
3) Now for something completely new: given that Demons are the children of chaos and destruction, it wouldn't be much of a stretch to give ALL of them an ability to INCREASE their minimum damage as combat progresses and there's more bloodshed on both sides. This makes perfect conceptual sense and goes hand-to-hand with the HUGE damage ranges some demons currently have (think Devil, for instance).
4) Well, this would be my last pick: minor changes all around boosting the infernal army stats-wise. This is probably all we're gonna get guys. %)
Alright, what do you guys think?
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 29, 2007 12:18 PM |
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Boasting their numbers like that will creat a very unbalanced game.
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 12:50 PM |
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Well I'm talking more of A WAY to boost the demons, rather than of precise numbers. It doesn't have to be 20-35%, can be just 10-15% and may still make the difference.
____________
“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 29, 2007 01:04 PM |
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what inferno needs is magic resistance(against puppet master especially)
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Erutan_Revol
Hired Hero
who stays in a treehouse
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posted May 29, 2007 01:31 PM |
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they should boost a few stats,the archdevils is like the second weakest Lv.7 in the game
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radar
Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
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posted May 29, 2007 01:54 PM |
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I'd not agree with that 
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Erutan_Revol
Hired Hero
who stays in a treehouse
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posted May 29, 2007 01:59 PM |
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SwampLord
Supreme Hero
Lord of the Swamp
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posted May 29, 2007 02:00 PM |
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Neither would I. Watching them rip apart a larger stack of Emerald Dragons is kind of annoying. They're definitely not the weakest. However, the HD is terrible. Succubus upg. deals much more damage then it normally should, due to chain shot. Also, what does PL's Vorpal Sword do? Can't seem to find out, thanks.
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GenieLord
Honorable
Legendary Hero
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posted May 29, 2007 02:26 PM |
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In my opinion, Inferno has two major problems:
1. Expansive creatures.
2. Lack of Magic.
The creatures' costs should definitely be reduced. The creatures are extremely expansive.
With normal creatures' costs, Inferno could be much stronger, don't you think?
Inferno has a serious problem when it fights against magics.
Something should be done so Inferno will be able to cope with spells.
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 02:30 PM |
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@ Erutan_Revol: well, they ain't the weakest, but a high cost + HUGE damage range combo is annoying indeed.
@ watcher83: totally agree. in fact, demons w/o arties or magic resistance provided by various perks are soft targets for any kind of magic coming in their direction.
@ SwampLord: Vorpal Sword, one of the best Inferno specials, guarantees killing at least one creature in the stack being attacked by my beloved Pit Lords. HIGHLY EFFECTIVE strategy if you split Pit Lords against high-level neutrals.
What about a new semi-racial I proposed, increasing the minimum dmg as combat gets bloodier? The minimum dmg can grow by the same laws used to increase the attack of creatures having the Enraged ability.
Another thing noted by so many ppl before is WHY demons, supposed to be bent on destruction and chaos are unable to use destruction magic due to low SP?! How does giving Demon Lords such large mana pool make much sense if not relying too much on Hellfire draining mana when activated? (BTW, not such a useful ability unless you got Soldier's luck)
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“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 29, 2007 02:50 PM |
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Quote:
they should boost a few stats,the archdevils is like the second weakest Lv.7 in the game
100% Agreed.
To the others: What makes them powerful, especially in damage? Surely they do more than Emeralds, but with the higher initiative the Emeralds will actually score more damage in the long run. And more initiative is muuuuch better than just more damage -- you have more retaliations, more tactics to move, etc.. 
Devil damage is 36-66, lowest possible except Necro's Spectrals and Emeralds with good initiative, and Archangels (which have a LOT more hit points than the Devil and cost WAY LESS).
Why do you guys see the Devil powerful? Prolly if we would all whine at Nival they would finally make them as they're meant for their huge cost 
Inferno doesn't have expensive creatures at all -- look at the Nightmare, it only costs 666 gold, compared to the averagely 900 gold of the other races. And, in my opinion, it's even stronger than the Unicorn, due to it's initiative.. And it's very cheap.
Why are the creatures expensive? (please do not confuse the dwellings with the creatures)
What I think Inferno really needs is some Defense, actually 
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 29, 2007 02:58 PM |
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Inferno needs:
- heroes with greater (proper) starting skills
- reduced building costs (Gold)
- improvement for the Devil... at least give him 8 speed
- a powerful ability that makes your creatures immune to Puppet Master
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TheDeath
Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
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posted May 29, 2007 03:00 PM |
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Quote:
- heroes with greater (proper) starting skills
- lesser in case of Deleb
Quote:
- reduced building costs (Gold)
Quote:
- improvement for the Devil... at least give him 8 speed
I'd say give him more defense/hp
Quote:
- a powerful ability that makes your creatures immune to Puppet Master
I'd say:
Balance Puppet Master to make it playable without having cleansing. And balance cleansing as well not to make it so powerful (because the dark spells/light spells are powerful). nerf those damn schools!
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ZombieLord
Promising
Famous Hero
that wants your brainz...
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posted May 29, 2007 03:03 PM |
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Quote:
Balance Puppet Master to make it playable without having cleansing. And balance cleansing as well not to make it so powerful (because the dark spells/light spells are powerful). nerf those damn schools!
Completely agree. Having Cleansing as a must spell when fighting Puppet Master is just 
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 29, 2007 03:07 PM |
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@ TheDeath: I don't think Inferno needs defense, since it doesn't tie in well with their aggressive nature. It would cut their sometimes huge losses with powerful neutrals though.
A devil also could use ANOTHER special, even for an unupgraded version - it could easily be a Destructive spell OR a more powerful version of the overseer's Explosion. Why? At least the archdevil as well as overseer look like they could explode with fiery fire at any moment.
@ ZombieLord: While puppet master immunity makes sense conceptually (i.e., HOW do you control the minds of already chaotic demons, huh?), they suffer from ALL magic, especially warlock's, say, Empowered AND lucky Meteor Shower. Once that hits, Devils May Cry (pun intended).
____________
“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted May 29, 2007 05:20 PM |
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I agree with Genielord, magic in general but especially against dark magic
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dreddy
Hired Hero
HC frosh
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posted May 30, 2007 07:16 AM |
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Edited by dreddy at 07:18, 30 May 2007.
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Inferno alt upgrades have been announced, and there is some hope:
Imp -> Quasit: Siphon Mana;
Horned Demon -> Horned Leaper: Leap, Enraged;
Hell Hound -> Firebreather: Three-headed Attack, Fire Breath, No Enemy Retaliation;
Succubus -> Succubus Temptress: Shooter, Ranged Retaliate, Immune to Hypnotize (aka Puppet Master), Seduce;
Hell Charger -> Hellmare: Fear, Searing Aura, Large Creature;
Pit Fiend -> Pit Spawn: Axe of Slaughter, Magic-Proof (50%), Large Creature
Devil -> Arch Demon: Flyer (Teleportation), Summon Other, Large Creature.
The abilities in bold seem to fix some magic-resistance problems, and it's nice to see that the already offensive potential of the Hell Hound can be further augmented with Fore Breath. The damage range of Arch Demon is still the same, dammit.
I'm also excited to see what Leap, Seduce, Axe of Slaughter and Summon Other do.
____________
“... so when the devil wants to dance with you, you’d better say “never”, because the dance with the devil might last you forever.” /Immortal Technique/
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watcher83
Supreme Hero
Child of Malassa
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posted June 04, 2007 10:07 PM |
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now the archdemon is stronger than the archangel, strange...
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Ted
Promising
Supreme Hero
Peanut Exterminator
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posted June 04, 2007 11:00 PM |
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i agree with GL, inferno are by far not weak, you simply play to there strenghs (like having cannon fodder horned overseers!), and the fact all the creatures cost a bomb doesnt help much though
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Visit my Site!
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Daystar
Honorable
Legendary Hero
Back from the Dead
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posted June 05, 2007 02:26 AM |
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Although mythos wise it makes sense: It would cost a lot of money to pay a person to do the rituals nescessary for a demon to get to the surface of the planet.
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How exactly is luck a skill?
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