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Heroes Community > Heroes 5 - Temple of Ashan > Thread: Death of the Spellcaster?
Thread: Death of the Spellcaster? This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 · NEXT»
atma6
atma6

Tavern Dweller
posted June 01, 2007 10:08 PM

Death of the Spellcaster?

Some of the new upgrades are getting rid of spellcasting (battle mage for example), and improving physical stats. Most caster units are used in small groups to use their spells, wouldn't people still use small groups of them and a large group of the more powerful physical unit? If so wouldn't large groups of casters become obsolete?


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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 01, 2007 10:13 PM

I have reasons to doubt. A good stack of archmages for fireballing will still be very useful unless armies get outrageously big. Normally you'll never get there in a multiplayer map. Also we can't know what other flaws the battle upgrade will have. If it still damages your units they won't be well protected in a big battle as the spellcaster that did not need to resort to ranged. Note that archmages also have cleansing and righteous magic that have other uses.
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Lesij
Lesij


Famous Hero
posted June 01, 2007 11:27 PM
Edited by Lesij at 23:27, 01 Jun 2007.

You told there are Battle Mages and I can't find any info bout academy altenates...
Could you give me a link, please?

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Gnoll_Mage
Gnoll_Mage


Responsible
Supreme Hero
posted June 01, 2007 11:29 PM

This info was just something we were told a long while ago as an off-hand example. See the link in my sig for the web address.
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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted June 02, 2007 12:01 AM

Hmmm... in the alternative Dungeon upgrades there are no shooters.
Does it mean that the shooters of Dungeon has gone? Ofcourse not.
You can always combine between the regular and the alternative upgrades.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 02, 2007 12:09 AM

Seeing what this thread is about i wonder if a regular unit will become a caster as an alternative
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GenieLord
GenieLord


Honorable
Legendary Hero
posted June 02, 2007 12:17 AM

Quote:
Seeing what this thread is about i wonder if a regular unit will become a caster as an alternative

Hmmm... Maybe, but I don't think so.
Up to now, every alterative unit has gotten one new fresh ability.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 02, 2007 12:38 AM

I doubt it myself I just see that some compleletly changed roles. Shooter to melee or melee/caster to pure melee. Who knows what else is in store for the other factions.
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PhoenixReborn
PhoenixReborn


Promising
Legendary Hero
Unicorn
posted June 02, 2007 01:11 AM
Edited by PhoenixReborn at 01:25, 02 Jun 2007.

Yeah they'll probably increase the effectiveness of the ghost dragon but letting it cast wasp swarm

Edit: More seriously, casters already lose effectiveness once they get to a certain growth point.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 02, 2007 01:21 AM

Lol yeah that would make it more useful
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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 02, 2007 01:50 AM

Sorry, I'm a bit of a bore tonight, but I cannot see why this discussion is not perfectly fitted in either of these topics: Alternative Upgrades - the discussion or Alternatives Comparison.
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atma6
atma6

Tavern Dweller
posted June 02, 2007 04:47 AM
Edited by atma6 at 04:54, 02 Jun 2007.

Sorry, I was trying to talk about the effect of the new upgrades on only spellcasting units rather than directly comparing the old and new upgrades and their relative effectiveness compared to eachother.

The spellcaster units I believe are going to be the most strongly effected by the change. Some melee units are faster, slower, offensive, defensive. Shooters have different abilities, but they all play the same as before and similar strategies will be used (pick an upgrade, get a lot of them). With spellcasters everything is different, why mass them? There is almost never a time when an offensive spell will be useful enough to warrent choosing a spellcaster vs. a non-spellcaster (ghosts, early Archmage, are exceptions). This leaves the buffers and debuffers, who might be still used but only in limited numbers. Before you had to stick with spellcasters because you had no choice, with the choice given it seems like the limited offensive potential of this class is going to be much different with new upgrades.

It just seems to me that spellcasters are going to be the units that will be hit the most since its already a good idea to split them, with new uppgrades that won't be necessarily spellcasters it is possible that spell casting upgrades will only be used in very small numbers while the non-spellcasters will be the primary focus.
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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted June 02, 2007 09:02 AM

What I can't understand is that an upgrade looses spellcasting. What does it do to FORGET the spells? I am talking about Pit Fiend -> Pit Spawn. Or Druid -> High Druid. Maybe I am thinking too "realistically", but this amnesia thing doesn't fit to my mind.

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Elvin
Elvin


Admirable
Omnipresent Hero
What if Elvin was female?
posted June 02, 2007 10:49 AM

Quote:
With spellcasters everything is different, why mass them? There is almost never a time when an offensive spell will be useful enough to warrent choosing a spellcaster vs. a non-spellcaster (ghosts, early Archmage, are exceptions). This leaves the buffers and debuffers, who might be still used but only in limited numbers. Before you had to stick with spellcasters because you had no choice, with the choice given it seems like the limited offensive potential of this class is going to be much different with new upgrades.


First of all the less casters for cleansing/buffing/debuffing the less potency their spells will have. I can't really comment on other casters but the archmage will always be able to deal decent damage on high def factions(unless there is resistance involved) and deal aoe damage which might be more important than a better ranged attack. And do not forget that when the stack is decimated, its spells are still good. At worst you will use the units as casters in earlygame and train them to the alternates later.
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radar
radar


Responsible
Legendary Hero
Castle/Haven player
posted June 02, 2007 10:54 AM

maybe druids chose more peaceful way of thinking, they dont wanna see bodies burned by lightnings anymore...

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Doomforge
Doomforge


Admirable
Undefeatable Hero
Retired Hero
posted June 02, 2007 10:57 AM
Edited by Doomforge at 10:58, 02 Jun 2007.

if battlemage is going to be simply an archmage with better attack and no spells, I'd stick with arch mages no matter what.

same for druids: high druids can only cast endurance. If their power feed special isn't something really SUPER, I'd go with the original caster.

The pit lord ain't a good caster, so it's natural ppl will prefer his offensive alternative.

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alcibiades
alcibiades


Honorable
Undefeatable Hero
of Gold Dragons
posted June 02, 2007 11:57 AM

Quote:
The spellcaster units I believe are going to be the most strongly effected by the change. Some melee units are faster, slower, offensive, defensive. Shooters have different abilities, but they all play the same as before and similar strategies will be used (pick an upgrade, get a lot of them). With spellcasters everything is different, why mass them?




Ha ha I just had to use that one. Anyway, I actually think this is a good point, which once again emphaszes why the logarithmic Spell Power growth for units needs to have a go in favor of a linear one! If you are don't know what I'm refering to here, you can see a rather lengthy discussion in this thread atma6.
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feluniozbunio
feluniozbunio


Promising
Supreme Hero
posted June 03, 2007 04:49 PM
Edited by feluniozbunio at 16:51, 03 Jun 2007.

I think retraining can be preety good in some cases. For example if we have spellcasting upgrade and non spelcasting alternative upgrade. In first few weeks you can use caster and after that you may retrain them to non spelcaster coz youll be using them as shooters anyway.

This would put an end to all whining about spellcasters being underpowered in late game.

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TheDeath
TheDeath


Responsible
Undefeatable Hero
with serious business
posted June 03, 2007 05:29 PM

Quote:
This would put an end to all whining about spellcasters being underpowered in late game.
I don't think so, because I want spells in endgame.

Otherwise it's the same as using 2 stacks of master hunters instead of 1 of hunters and 1 of druid (since both are shooters).

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Minion
Minion


Legendary Hero
posted June 03, 2007 06:27 PM

How late is this when casters are underpowered. Because I have yet to play THAT long a game. Them being underpowered is only theoretical, for me at least.

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