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| Thread: Religion |  This thread is pages long: 1 2 · «PREV |
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Oldtimer
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Supreme Hero
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posted November 06, 2001 12:06 AM |
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Lords of Magic has religions. You have to control your teams temple in order to get the top level creatures and specials. I don't know if Homm really wants to borrow elements from that game. But if you want to see how relgion could work that is one example.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 06, 2001 03:22 AM |
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Djive, I was not saying that you have to make the clerics join your cause, but rather you joining their. They wouldn't mind a donation from you, nor their god. They won't ask you who you are as long as you will worship their god, because that's the most important thing for them. Fighting them means taking over, while donating means: Hey, I come in peace, I will please your god, how about a blessing?
Well if you do it this way, then you're not going to Flag the Temple, so basically everything I suggested would be void and you have a Heroes 3 Temple.
There could be an option to instead of attacking you can just give a donation, but the result of donation would just be the "temporary" bonus. Not the one associated with the Flagging.
Joining the "clerics" cause assumes that Gods are general to all factions, which was exactly what I wanted to avoid. Just say you have a Haven army with Angels worshipping the God of Wickedness. Just how likely is that? How long will those said Angels stay in your army after the temple visit?
You assume that the Mythos for all Gods are worshippable by everybody, but this is usually not the case at all.
You don't need religion and temples to have places where you can learn to cast spells more efficiently. There will likely be that type of adventure locations anyway. Such temples would anyway tend to be non-religious in purpose and origin. The replacements of the Star Axis will likely have an effect like this, so it would be better to just make it another structure.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Zilpheg
Known Hero
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posted November 06, 2001 03:32 AM |
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yhea...
good ideas 
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted November 06, 2001 10:18 PM |
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If you don't want an angel to worship an evil god, then the solution is very simple: there will be no evil or good god in the game, but a sort of "neutral" gods.Have you read the greek mithology? Ares, the god of war, was not a wicked one, though some evil guys worshiped it. If you will introduce gods like War, Commerce, Wisdom, etc. and not Wickedness(I've never heard of such a god, anyway) then they will be neither good, nor wicked, and anyone could worship it.
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 06, 2001 11:10 PM |
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There are several Mythos where there are "Neutral Gods" which you can worship as you like or dislike.
However there are also many other Mythos were worshipping the God of the enemy is heresy and will get you killed in no time flat.
When Mapmakers make a map the neutral mythos can be simulated in many ways, because almost every structure in the game never looks at your alignment or whether you're good or evil, or if the player you serve is good or evil. I mean all you need to do is create a Shrine (or other religious building) which gives a benefit and contains some neutral god and then make it flaggable, and voila you have simulated a neutral Mythos in your game.
It's a bad thing if the game enforces a specific type of Mythos on Mapmakers!
(On the top of my head the Altar of Sacrifice would be the only structure in H3 which it makes a difference whether you're good or evil.)
With the Temple structure I proposed, the Mapmaker can make a campaign where the Mythos dictates that gods are in opposition to each other, perhaps with the help of some of the other structures where alignment matters.
This would be something that is not supported in the Heroes 3 game.
The 'Shrine' seems to be a specialization of the Temple. It is:
- An external location
- Flaggable for a (global) bonus
- Visitable for a smaller bonus
The Temple I described is also:
- Place which can be taken over and defended by players.
- A creature generator.
- Associated with a certain town type/player alignment.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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vladpopescu79
Promising
Famous Hero
a vampire of taste
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posted November 07, 2001 12:07 AM |
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Quote:
There are several Mythos where there are "Neutral Gods" which you can worship as you like or dislike.
However there are also many other Mythos were worshipping the God of the enemy is heresy and will get you killed in no time flat.
When Mapmakers make a map the neutral mythos can be simulated in many ways, because almost every structure in the game never looks at your alignment or whether you're good or evil, or if the player you serve is good or evil. I mean all you need to do is create a Shrine (or other religious building) which gives a benefit and contains some neutral god and then make it flaggable, and voila you have simulated a neutral Mythos in your game.
It's a bad thing if the game enforces a specific type of Mythos on Mapmakers!
(On the top of my head the Altar of Sacrifice would be the only structure in H3 which it makes a difference whether you're good or evil.)
With the Temple structure I proposed, the Mapmaker can make a campaign where the Mythos dictates that gods are in opposition to each other, perhaps with the help of some of the other structures where alignment matters.
This would be something that is not supported in the Heroes 3 game.
The 'Shrine' seems to be a specialization of the Temple. It is:
- An external location
- Flaggable for a (global) bonus
- Visitable for a smaller bonus
The Temple I described is also:
- Place which can be taken over and defended by players.
- A creature generator.
- Associated with a certain town type/player alignment.
the temple that you describe, as you say - flaggable and creature generator - is no novelty since heroes3 due to this qualities.What makes it different is its association with a town type due to the gods (good or evil) that it worships.But in this case I doubt the strategical value in the game.If I'm evil it means I have no reason to attack a "good" one because I'l have no profits, and my enemy won't bother to take my evil ones (I don't suppose that the good temple would generate some evil clerics for me, right?).Will this turn into a contest "who flags more of them for more bonuses"?
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MANE, TEKEL, FARES
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 07, 2001 12:50 AM |
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Quote:
the temple that you describe, as you say - flaggable and creature generator - is no novelty since heroes3 due to this qualities.
And since when did Temples in Heroes 3 produce creatures?
Creature dwellings do, but they always produce the same creature. The Temples I proposed produced different creatures depending on who flagged them.
Another difference would be that a flagged Temple would not give +1 Weekly production of the creature.
Quote:
What makes it different is its association with a town type due to the gods (good or evil) that it worships. But in this case I doubt the strategical value in the game.If I'm evil it means I have no reason to attack a "good" one because I'l have no profits, and my enemy won't bother to take my evil ones (I don't suppose that the good temple would generate some evil clerics for me, right?).
Yes, it would produce start to produce "evil" clerics. That was the general idea. (The idea may be a bit handicapped because not every town will have a suitable 'clerical' level 3 creature, but that's another thing.  )
Even if you didn't profit this way, you may want to take the Temple to remove the other player's bonus.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Zilpheg
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2001 04:13 PM |
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Maybe as I said before, each castle could start out being able to build a temple to a certain god. Those would be the good or evil ones. The external, flaggable temples would be nuetral, as suggested before. If you captured a castle with an oppisite religion, maybe you wouldn't get the bounus for it and you would get minus 1 moral instead untill you conquered certain forces that are guarding it. And the other player will continue to get the bounus from it untill you take it intirely.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 07, 2001 04:31 PM |
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The idea was to keep the Temples separated from the cities. With my proposal they work a little like mini-cities. Overall it doesn't seem a good idea to locate them together.
On the other hand towns of opposite alignments to the player who conquers them should perhaps be prone to rebellion. This is not directly related to religion but motivated by the creatures being 'natural' enemies. (Isn't this the way AoW works?)
If you allow Temples also in cities it becomes 'impossible' to convert the priests. It's one thing to level a desolate temple to the grounds and another to do the same thing in the middle of a city in front of screaming citizens with a compatible alignment.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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Zilpheg
Known Hero
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posted November 07, 2001 10:53 PM |
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like i said...
You wouldn't convert the priests. Once you beat the castle, you would still have to beat the temple and then install your OWN priests there.
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Djive
Honorable
Supreme Hero
Zapper of Toads
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posted November 08, 2001 03:30 AM |
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You wouldn't convert the priests. Once you beat the castle, you would still have to beat the temple and then install your OWN priests there.
I actually meant "slaughter" the priests. It doesn't make any difference to the argument. The citizens wouldn't just idle watch while you take them out and install the new ones. That's what's opposite alignements are supposed to prevent or make difficult with big penalties.
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"A brilliant light can either illuminate or blind. How will you know which until you open your eyes?"
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wiggy_wam
Promising
Famous Hero
local pirate
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posted November 08, 2001 08:09 AM |
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can't really find a reason against that idea but I don't agree with it... it's just not HoMM anymore... of course that's just me...
yeah, it's a good idea, but not for HOMM.
It would likely be better for dungeon keeper or Majesty.
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Zilpheg
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 01:46 PM |
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uh uh...
Quote:
Quote:
You wouldn't convert the priests. Once you beat the castle, you would still have to beat the temple and then install your OWN priests there.
I actually meant "slaughter" the priests. It doesn't make any difference to the argument. The citizens wouldn't just idle watch while you take them out and install the new ones. That's what's opposite alignements are supposed to prevent or make difficult with big penalties.
The citezens are your own citizens. You have already beaten the castle. Of course their citezens wouldn't let you just take the priests out, but your citezens are the ones there and they want to worship THEIR god, not someone elses. Also you mean by slaughtering, that the priests automaticly get beaten when you take the castle?
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RobinHood
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 06:31 PM |
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Heroes are Gods
I don't want Homm to become an other Black and White. There are yet some kind of bonuses for people who fight for Good or Evil. Many religions would only complicate the gameplay.
You know, I fight for my heroes. First I want they to survive, and then become GODS in a certain way.
According to me, my heroes have a place in my heart that no gods could take.
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It is the province of knowledge to speak & it is the privilege of wisdom to listen.
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Zilpheg
Known Hero
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posted November 08, 2001 09:13 PM |
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of course...
thats the point. All the complications add many shades of grey instead of leaving it to the plain black and white. (were you talking 'bout the game or the idea?) either way
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MightyMage
Honorable
Legendary Hero
of INSANITY and DELICIOUSNESS
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posted November 13, 2001 03:17 AM |
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You know, I was thinking about how alot of that just might work. Along the way however, somthing else came to mind. Has anyone by any chance heard of Warlord's Battlecry? A fun game somwhat similar to Heroes but Battles and troops differ. There is a part in the game though called quest buildings where the hero must either convert enemy buildings, kill a certain amount of the enemy to bring back as food, give some resources, or what I liked was building somthing in honor of those tha dwelled there. The same kind of thing could be applied to Heroes only different things would have to be done depending on which god it was or what kind of god.
Moderator's note:This topic has been closed, as it refers to an older version of the game. To discuss Heroes 3, please go to Library Of Enlightenment, to discuss Heroes 4, please go to War Room Of Axeoth.
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Though I must still bow
in awe for the awesomeness that is
MightyMage. For he is all I could ever
want to be! - OhforfSake
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